Illegal Guns

[Scar]

I have had a theory for some time now that harsher preventitive laws might do some good concerning some of the scarier gun murder statistics. I propose a sentence of life in prison to people in possession of guns not registered to them, and at least a year in prison to the person the gun DID belong to.

I haven't TRIED this yet, a disclaimer I should not have to add but will anyways, since I know some people like to say "show me your evidence for why this would work," which I might add is extremely irritating, but let's just talk about this and try to figure out if it would work.

In theory (my theory) this would cause gun murders to drop drastically. It would be really hard for someone to plan a murder since if they were going to get a gun it would have to either be registered to them or stolen in a reasonably short time before the time of the crime. I say stolen because if there were to be a plan to trade or sell a gun, the seller is looking at some jail time too. It at least makes things difficult.

The assumption this law's justification relies on is that there is no reason for a person to EVER have a gun not registered to them, unless they are planning to kill a person. Can anyone think of any other reason?

 

[Teebs]

I can agree to your facts in a way.

In your last line, there should be no reason for a person to carry a gun that is not registered to them, even if it is for a good reason. An good example of this could be taken from my area, and this refers to adolescents-young teens. Kids take guns to school, and their main reasons are self-defense or kill a kid who won't stop making fun of them. Now you have the parent(s) who leave their weapon wide open for a grab, which in the end, should be the parent(s) fault. Now if there is a lock, and the kid learns how to get the lock off, then it is the kids fault for bringing it.

If I had to take a wild guess, about 65% murders by gun is used by a gun that is not registered to the murderer. As for sentences, well, I am against death penalty, so life in prison works, w/o bail. As for the person the gun was registered to, that person should get more than one year, because he aided a murder. I would go at minimum, 5-7 years, and a very large or no bail, even if the person didn't know it was inteded for murder.

 

[AltF4]

So if I own a gun and somebody steals it and kills somebody with it, I go to jail?! That's ridiculous.

You see, the problem is that you're looking at this from the wrong angle...

Don't think of it in terms of "what would be better or safer for America", but rather "what would allow Americans to live as freely as possible within reason". Because if your only criterion for making this hypothetical law is that it would cut down on deaths, then we should outlaw cigarettes long before we enact gun control laws. And while we're at it, we should outlaw food that is bad for you and make a law that says all citizens have to eat at least 2 servings of vegetables per day.

All of these things would increase public safety and health... and yet reduce our freedom to almost nothing. America values freedom above all else.

A valid argument for a gun control law would involve a rationale of how it would protect the liberty of (presumably) a minority group of people. Try that instead.

 

[Scar]

Wow, what did you watch Thank You For Smoking and quote me the final monologue? I feel like I'm William H. Macy over here. This is ridiculous. Deaths are different than murders. If someone wants to eat unhealthy food that's fine, they just have to deal with the consequences. Likewise for smoking. This is all tangential at best.

There are WAY too many gun murders in America, PERIOD. I'm wondering what is a good way to approach this.

Yes, if your gun is stolen then you should be investigated, interrogated, and if found guilty of giving someone a gun you should get jail time. A resounding YES. Everyone should treat their guns with at least enough respect to realize that if it's stolen someone may die and that they are in fact somewhat responsible.

Secondly, the only right to freedom I'm coming after in this hypothetical law is the right to shoot other people. Pretty sure that one isn't constitutionally protected, so I'm not too worried about this not allowing Americans to live reasonably freely.

I feel very much like your response is tailored to fit a lot of different issues and really had nothing to do with the heart of this thread.

 

[AltF4]

Umm, no, now you're just trying to change your position. Originally you said:

I propose a sentence of life in prison to people in possession of guns not registered to them, and at least a year in prison to the person the gun DID belong to.

And your rationale is that:

this would cause gun murders to drop drastically.

You said that you want people to go to jail (for their whole lives) for simply possessing a gun (that isn't registered to them) and not actually doing anything wrong with it.

And now you're trying to change that and say:

the only right to freedom I'm coming after in this hypothetical law is the right to shoot other people.

This is not your original argument, but a strawman you're throwing at me. Of course shooting people is wrong. That's why there's already laws against it!

What YOU'RE proposing is for people to go to jail simply possessing a gun and not doing anything wrong with it, which is a violation of basic freedom.

 

[Scar]

No, there is no right to possessing guns that aren't yours. Are you suggesting that we have a right to steal? Or perhaps that we have the right to give anything we want to whoever we want? That's clearly not the case since you can't give alcohol to those under the legal drinking age. So I don't understand your point.

 

[AltF4]

You're still just trying to strawman the issue.

I never suggested that I have the right to steal, nor ever insinuated that. You're trying to put words in my mouth to make yourself look less ridiculous. Don't think I won't pick up on that.

This issue is not like giving alcohol to minors because minors are not allowed to possess alcohol. If I own two guns, why should I go to jail for letting my friend borrow a gun while we both go hunting?

Rather than make a bunch of paranoid laws preemptively restricting gun ownership, why don't we just make it illegal to use the guns to shoot other people. Oh, wait. We already do. My *point* is that hypothetical law that you proposed originally (as opposed to the ones you've been making since) is utterly outrageous and violates basic American freedoms.


May I remind you that humans have been killing other humans in huge quantities long before guns were ever invented. No matter what, you're going to have murders, because there will always be murderers.

 

[Scar]

Right, and I know that, but no one has gun murders like we do. Guns are horrifying. I personally have felt much safer in Europe just because I know that no one really has a gun on the streets. You know that you can always be murdered or whatever (slightly paranoid way to look at things) but there's a lot of fear in the idea that you can't run from a gun. It feels good to know that the only way you're going to be taken down is melee-style. I can run away from knives and stuff like that.

That's just a personal feeling. The point I'm making is that gun murders are a big deal. Admittedly only one of many things that should be focused on, but you can't just hide behind "there's so many other things." Otherwise no matter what I bring up you'll just say "well there are other things that cause murders and they are more important because of x, y, and z." This is one thing that I propose we can do something about.

IMO there is a pretty big problem with you letting your friend borrow your gun while you guys go hunting, and I don't think it's a terribly paranoid law, nor do I find it AT ALL outrageous.

What a minor inconvenience, you have to buy your own gun to go hunting... idk, to me that sounds like a more perfect world than this one.

So I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree, since there is no way that I'm going to allow "violation of basic American freedoms" to stop me from saying that no one should possess a gun that doesn't belong to them. No way.

 

[AltF4]

Then you apparently just don't understand how America works. This is what separates the US in many ways from Europe. Your arguments about guns being harmful and gun murders are irrelevant. In America, we value freedom above all else, even if it is to our own detriment.

 

[Sandy]

I think some guns should be illegal, not all of them though. It does make you feel safer though, then you can turn on the Mission Impossible music and go at it. If someone breaks into my house, I wanna be able to protect myself.

 

[Scar]

Right, sure, but I'm not even going anywhere near the freedom and right to bear arms. Do you really think it's unreasonable to not let other people touch your weapons? We in America have laws restricting and/or regulating everything that's dangerous, but we don't have laws saying no one can have them. I understand and agree and respect that.

I don't see anything un-American about not allowing citizens to give guns to their friends.

I'm not offended but I think it's stupid of you to tell me that I don't know how my country works. Not backed up at all and a somewhat worthless cheap shot.

 

[Teebs]

So if I own a gun and somebody steals it and kills somebody with it, I go to jail?! That's ridiculous.

Only if you don't report it stolen.

 

[AltF4]

Only if you don't report it stolen.

What about immediately after? Someone steals my gun while I'm not at home and immediately kills someone before I get back.

There's too many gray areas. And you're going after the wrong people here. Prosecute the person who pulled the trigger, not the poor sap he stole the gun from. That's just stupid.

 

[Scar]

If my gun was stolen and someone was shot with it I'm pretty sure someone's gonna be investigating me anyways. I think that's how America works right now. No, it's really not that stupid. Life and death is pretty important.

If it's determined that the gun was stolen and I had nothing to do with it then fine. But if I had sold the gun or anything silly like that then **** straight I deserve some jail time.

You're getting hung up on all the wrong details. I'm not saying that for no reason we're throwing someone in jail. I'm saying that if your gun is involved in a murder then you're going to be investigated, which is no change from the present. Also, if the investigation yields your responsibility, you're going to jail.

idk I kind of want someone else to argue that this isn't reasonable. You're not really bringing up any new points and the ones you've already made are tired/insufficient.

 

[Sandy]

A gun is but the mechanical force behind the operation and what arms the person with the power to carry out their will. The human behind it is what is the heaviest factor in what the force of a bullet does. It is a human who's will and conscience is what decides if the gun is equipped and used or not. A gun just realizes some one's will to kill you. A gun plays the role of the empowerment behind it, whereas a human plays the intelligence that pilots it.

Simply taking away the physical empowerment or ability to kill by forcefully disarming someone is the most simple, yet superficial way of stopping the bullet from taking a life; by getting rid of the bullet. It is akin to disciplining a child without the child actually believing in the cause and only obeying on behalf of minding that they aren't disciplined. However, it is very rare that you can do anything else to stop someone from using an empowering weapon, because once they have it, most of the time their resolve top use it is steel. In terms of practicality, you'd need to consider the gun doing the killing because the gun is the only factor you can take out at that point, whether by banning guns before their used or by just simply taking out whoever the *bleep* is using it.

 

[Scar]

Yeah I agree and if we could take away people's desire to kill then that'd be pretty sweet, but we can't. Also I'm addressing random street killings more than anything, since I'm pretty sure those aren't even rare nowadays.

The other thing I'm talking about is incentives. You have less incentive to kill with your own gun since you'll probably get caught. Also other people will have more incentive to better hide their guns so they aren't investigated after it's stolen. It just makes everything more difficult for criminals and easier to regulate for law enforcement. Which is the point of government.

 

[Enshoku]

I have had a theory for some time now that harsher preventative laws might do some good concerning some of the scarier gun murder statistics. I propose a sentence of life in prison to people in possession of guns not registered to them, and at least a year in prison to the person the gun DID belong to.

This is perfectly reasonable, but people may borrow guns belonging to their friends for things such as hunting which would turn out... badly in a courtroom. If this law was only applied to murder and attempted murder cases, that factor wouldn't really come into play, except as a reason for the guns original owner.

In theory (my theory) this would cause gun murders to drop drastically. It would be really hard for someone to plan a murder since if they were going to get a gun it would have to either be registered to them or stolen in a reasonably short time before the time of the crime. I say stolen because if there were to be a plan to trade or sell a gun, the seller is looking at some jail time too. It at least makes things difficult.

It makes things more difficult, but a projectile firing weapon isn't extremely hard to make, and I'm sure the black market would suffice. It would take a nice sized step in stopping murders, due to decreased accessibility...

The assumption this law's justification relies on is that there is no reason for a person to EVER have a gun not registered to them, unless they are planning to kill a person. Can anyone think of any other reason?

I mentioned this above, in Ohio people will let their friends borrow a gun to go hunting on the gun owner's property quite often. If this law was enacted, I'm sure many people would have a close eye on all weapons they had registered to them...

 

[IWontGetOverTheDam]

This reminds me of an interesting story. My grandfather is a gun owner, and has been his whole life. When he was in his mid-30s, he had his gun stolen from his glovebox in his car. He reported it stolen, and when on his merry way. Two days later, the police called him up and said they found his gun. When he confirmed the serial number, they told him the theif had used in to shoot a cab driver in the back of the head. Well, the point is, if there had been no gun in the situation, would it have ended the same? Or would it have been different? Take the gun out of the equation, and what you end up with is a knife fight. In the end, the gun isn't the murderer. The person is. How he got the gun doesn't affect the situation.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I love you Scar, I really do...But I couldn't disagree with you any more than I do right now.

I believe that only under severe circumstances should someone be sentenced to life in prison. Owning an illegal gun does not warrant life in prison, at least in my opinion. I'm not sure many people realize just how horrible prison is...It's not just a way of "punishing" or "condemning" people. It's far worse. It's an entire different world. I guess I'm basing my argument off of my understanding and knowledge of prison, so in a way I may be a bit bias. I like your idea of trying to reduce illegal gun posession, however I just don't find life in prison a punishment suited for this.

 

[Eor]

Scar, this is probably the dumbest proposal I've seen. You claim there is no reason to own an illegal gun except to kill somebody. But what reason is there for a gun except to kill somebody? Hunting, yes, but those who regularly hunt are not a majority of those that own guns. Illegal guns are illegal, obviously, and should be punished, but life imprisonment? Punishment has to equal the crime, and you're asking for people to have a higher punishment for not murdering then if they did. If a guy I know said "hey, I have like 20 guns, want one?" and I accept it, I committed a crime so terrible that I deserve to spend the rest of my life in a jail cell.

And all you're doing in all of your posts is throwing around loaded words and straw men, you're not debating.

 

[Caturdayz]

This proposal is pretty ridiculous. Life in prison for owning an illegal firearm? A year in prison to someone who lends a gun to a friend?

Now I will give you this: It would make things more difficult for killers but it would also be unfair to the other gun owners in our country.

 

[Keitaro]

I see where Scar is going with his thoughts on preventing murders including guns in America but even if these laws were made I doubt it would really make much of a difference.

I find this similar to the type of law of wearing a seatbelt. Many people don't wear it and you know many cops notice this but alot of them are not going to stop the person for not wearing their seatbelt. Half the time the seatbelt excuse is used to not give a nice looking person a speeding ticket.

I believe people will still borrow guns and cops or law enforces will be lenient on attempting to give punishment on illegal gun ownership because of the Life In Prison penalty. Even if the law is made I doubt half the people caught without a gun would actually get life.

IE: When people are speeding 25 mph above the limit and the cop gives a ticket for 15 above to be nice and before appearing in court the cop and lawyer agree to change the ticket to "wreckless driving" before adhearing to the judge.