• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

If Melee HD was a thing, should/would their be re balancing.

TunaAndBacon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
111
Location
Austin TX
NNID
TunaAndBacon
So I've been seeing a lot of discussion and wishing for a Melee HD coming out for Wii U, since the gamecube controller is a thing, Melee is bigger than ever, and Nintendo is sponsoring tourneys for the most part.

So in this perfect world that we live in where Melee HD comes out, and they keep all the tech ( Wavedashing, L-canceling, etc.) Should the characters be re balanced, or would that simply ruin the greatness that is Melee.

IMO with Armada switching to fox against Leffen and H-box in paragon, I think a couple of things should be switched around. I'm not complaining but I think that Fox's U-smash and U-air shouldn't have so much monster strength.

Whatta ya'll think?
 
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
7,187
At most, the rebalancing would be making it PAL's version. Nintendo could simply not change the game, giving them less work to do meaning more profits for them. Balance would really only appeal to competitive players which is a pretty small minority (about 1% of the Smash player/buyer population (I calculated this from VGBC's twitch follower count / Brawl's total sales. The denominator will soon get replaced with Smash 4's total sales once that game surpasses Brawl. If anyone knows a better formula to calculate the ratio of competitive Smash buyers, tell me)

There has been at least 1 case when an old fighting game was balanced and the community ended up preferring the game's previous version (Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo). Maybe it could happen if Melee were to get rebalanced. Most of the time, when a game gets rebalanced, people are fine with the latest updates

The thing about Melee's imbalance is that its 2 best characters are 2 of the funnest. Imagine if the game's most boring ones ended up being the best. It's kind of convenient that some of the more boring characters ended up not being tournament viable. Imagine if Young Link was the best character in the game. Having a metagame dominated by a character who kind of relies on timing out, at least vs Peach and Puff, would bore a lot of players
 

AirFair

Marth tho
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
1,972
Location
Houston, Texas
Yea I don't think Nintendo would want to put any work into rebalancing, so it would probably end up as PAL is pretty much.
 

TunaAndBacon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
111
Location
Austin TX
NNID
TunaAndBacon
Ok so in perfect world 2.0 where Nintendo only cares about Melee, and they are willing to invest time into balancing should/would they?

I can understand wanting to keep the spacies at the top since they are incredibly fun to watch/play for most players, as well as being one of the hardest characters to get good at. But maybe some other characters should get a little love or treatment, like Bowser getting a little nudge up in speed or something.
 
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
7,187
Ok so in perfect world 2.0 where Nintendo only cares about Melee, and they are willing to invest time into balancing should/would they?

I can understand wanting to keep the spacies at the top since they are incredibly fun to watch/play for most players, as well as being one of the hardest characters to get good at. But maybe some other characters should get a little love or treatment, like Bowser getting a little nudge up in speed or something.
Make all fun characters good and all boring ones bad. Or make all characters both fun and good. The 2 best possible scenarios. The latter is of course better

It would give the scene an extra boost in tournament popularity (if it gets advertised well). There'd be a new game for everyone to play which could (re)spark interest of more (new) players. It just needs to play similarly to the way Melee currently is
 

ItsChon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Messages
176
Location
West Side
Freaking Sakurai. He had one job. Make Melee online with ranked type play, better single player, and more characters. THAT'S ALL you had to do. This is the scenario where we don't want innovation and new things. What does he do? He gives us Brawl. What a load o' horse ****.
 

JackSSB

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
45
Location
Northeast Ohio
Honestly, there shouldn't be. I feel like a lot of Melee players would find it unnecessary to adjust to the Melee HD, as they would rather just stick with the Gamecube version.
 

Shaq

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 27, 2010
Messages
142
Location
Orlando, FL
Maybe make all releases PAL, but Sakurai be a wack mo****a now don't want him toucbin this ****
 

Earthboundy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 21, 2014
Messages
136
Location
South Jersey
NNID
Earthboundy
3DS FC
0173-1290-2436
Yes, absolute yes! It would be so nice to have a tech based competitive Smash game with more than 5 viable characters.
 

TunaAndBacon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
111
Location
Austin TX
NNID
TunaAndBacon
Make all fun characters good and all boring ones bad. Or make all characters both fun and good. The 2 best possible scenarios. The latter is of course better

It would give the scene an extra boost in tournament popularity (if it gets advertised well). There'd be a new game for everyone to play which could (re)spark interest of more (new) players. It just needs to play similarly to the way Melee currently is
It would probably just end up being the PAL version but I don't think that all Melee characters that are bad are boring. Ganon sucks, and playing/watching him is amazing.
 
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
7,187
It would probably just end up being the PAL version but I don't think that all Melee characters that are bad are boring. Ganon sucks, and playing/watching him is amazing.
PAL is the realistic expectation

An idealistic one is what I typed

Boring isn't the same as bad. It would have been pretty cool if Ganondorf was tournament viable. Same goes for Mario, Mewtwo and Roy. There are 2 boring characters that are good (Peach and Puff)
 

MOI-ARI

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
912
Location
Up yours, kid.
NNID
TAISH0U
3DS FC
3523-2502-7558
Never played Melee in any sort of competetive aspect, but if there was some rebalancing for undeused characters to at least stand a chance against top tier high option characters like Fox then Im sure many new players would wander on to the scene, and not be TOO far behind from tourney players. Plus online would be cool too^^
 

Dr.Dru

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 19, 2015
Messages
10
Location
New Jersey
Other than the pal adjustments, I don't think anything else should be changed. If they change the balance they should just release a melee mode for smash 4 instead, as they would run the risk of ruining the core gameplay of melee which would make the entire remake a waste of time.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
858
Location
PWN
i feel like this has been asked before a few times but i haven't said before what i'm about to say so...

i'd think it'd be fairly straightforward and the changes would be very minor, mostly to the top tier characters.

fox's upsmash does less knockback but more damage, so that you can't juggle more with it because of increased percentages each time but you can't kill with it as easily because of decreased knockback.

turn falco's spike into a meteor. it will still ground spike but will remove his ko potential off edge, and mix up his combo game a bit because it's now a meteor. laser lock is still fine with this change. optional: replace the meteor in his mirage with a very low knockback hit that pops slightly upward or downward.

falcon seems fine. i might strengthen his back throw or something.

not sure what i'd do with the rest of the top tier cast, maybe make sheik's throws more powerful (so she can't juggle as much?), definitely remove bombs from peach's arsenal. i'm sure marth's tippered fsmash could be reduced very slightly, since he doesn't quite need that always. i'd say keep his spike, in this case.

everything else is probably fine. i'd basically just ask the question 'what kills you the easiest?' and start there. it's not like i have to start increasing more characters' strength, i just have to reel in some of the one-button kills. like how do people die the most with fox? uair, upsmash, or shine. well of all of those things, upsmash is the most guaranteed to kill you. what about falco? it's his dair, it's just too easy of a move. i honestly think falco is slightly broken in melee because of it. falcon knee is not something that falls under this category because although knee can kill a lot there are a lot of other factors going into the knee first since it's normally based off aerial juggling, whereas something like a drill shine upsmash is more or less guaranteed.
 
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
7,187
turn falco's spike into a meteor. it will still ground spike but will remove his ko potential off edge, and mix up his combo game a bit because it's now a meteor
If it were a meteor, his combo ability would become even more broken. Unless an opponent Smash DIs, they would be sent straight up and down from that move. It would be harder to (smash) DI away/out of a pillar combo. This change would only shift the problem's severity

I think the real nerf it needs it a a shorter lasting hit box (active on frames 5-14 instead of 5-24) and a removal of the top hit box. Its combo and KO ability are really cool. Using these nerfs would retain most of it and require more precision to perform them. It would also give him a blind spot on his sides, making it riskier to use during the neutral game
 

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
If it were a meteor, his combo ability would become even more broken. Unless an opponent Smash DIs, they would be sent straight up and down from that move. It would be harder to (smash) DI away/out of a pillar combo. This change would only shift the problem's severity
That's not true at all. You could literally meteor cancel out of all of Falco's combos.
 

EddyBearr

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
1,202
Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota
At most, the rebalancing would be making it PAL's version. Nintendo could simply not change the game, giving them less work to do meaning more profits for them. Balance would really only appeal to competitive players which is a pretty small minority (about 1% of the Smash player/buyer population (I calculated this from VGBC's twitch follower count / Brawl's total sales. The denominator will soon get replaced with Smash 4's total sales once that game surpasses Brawl. If anyone knows a better formula to calculate the ratio of competitive Smash buyers, tell me)

There has been at least 1 case when an old fighting game was balanced and the community ended up preferring the game's previous version (Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo). Maybe it could happen if Melee were to get rebalanced. Most of the time, when a game gets rebalanced, people are fine with the latest updates

The thing about Melee's imbalance is that its 2 best characters are 2 of the funnest. Imagine if the game's most boring ones ended up being the best. It's kind of convenient that some of the more boring characters ended up not being tournament viable. Imagine if Young Link was the best character in the game. Having a metagame dominated by a character who kind of relies on timing out, at least vs Peach and Puff, would bore a lot of players
Twitch followers is a good formula, but always understand that it'll be more than just that. There are a lot of people like me who take the game at least seriously enough to know of competitive play and care about balance who don't follow VGBC.

A better estimate would be looking at how many people watch the top few at Apex 2015, as tons will tune in who don't follow VGBC. There will be some who don't play/care for smash bros who watch just because, and there will be some who don't watch despite playing or caring about smash bros. I doubt even half will attend tournaments (I think of the people I met on other games who know of or care about competitive smash, and only a few have ever come close to attending a tournament or even smashfest), but I'd bet that a huge majority of them at least care whether or not Fox kills at 80% on hit-confirms on everyone, or if Sheik chain-grabs everyone to 40-80%.


On-Topic: I would love melee HD remix, and it should be PAL and competitive friendly. If that happened, I would probably buy a Wii U and Smash 4 alongside the Melee. Probably buy other games too since I'd already have the console.
 
Last edited:

Y-L

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 16, 2014
Messages
2,436
Location
Ventura, CA
I really feel like Melee HD would just divide the community.. people are going to have preferences for each and if there's any changes to the HD version that would just make it worse..
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
858
Location
PWN
I really feel like Melee HD would just divide the community.. people are going to have preferences for each and if there's any changes to the HD version that would just make it worse..
Possibly. But I think if changes were minor enough and agreeable enough then it wouldn't really matter. Pretty much like, not melee 'rebalanced' but just 'melee v1.03'. As if the designers created just one more version before finally deciding on it all.

I mean, yeah, if melee were really changed around, I probably wouldn't like it at all. I'm actually already against the idea. It would have to be a very very conservative change for me to like it. Like, very tiny intermittent buffs to the lower tier cast, and just those nerfs (and one for jiggs) I mentioned to the high tier cast. I would leave the middle tiers largely untouched: Samus, Ganon, Mario, Luigi, Doc, they're all fine how they are. DK could probably have a slightly faster dtilt, he needs that for his close-up game, and maybe a slightly higher vertical gain on his up+b, but I wonder if that would be even too much, he's a bit of a powerhouse on his own. You start thinking "oh, maybe this character could use more of this?" and that's where you start making mistakes because very quickly the changes compound on themselves and suddenly both characters' playstyles are changed, which means the metagame (the core fundamentals that represent Melee for what and how it is as to distinguish it from the rest of the smash games, not who's higher up on the tier list) is affected, and the game can then become something else. When looking at your final product you must always first ask 'what can be removed to make this better?' and if you can't find anything, then you it's already perfect, you don't need to add anything else. But if you find that something sticks out more than the others (like fox's upsmash), then you have to first remove that, and only then can you compare 'ok, fox now has this move, this move, and that move, and they are of this amount of relative power to each other. now link, on the other hand, has all these moves, and yet his power balance there is relatively lower than what fox has: therefore, I think link really has to have this improvement to one of his moves to be considered on-par with fox's relative powers.' Looking beyond any nuances to this process it can still be said that this is a thorough process that the steps cannot be really skipped in any way or else you will get confused and your final product will not be how you thought it would turn out. It's like baking: ever made a recipe one way, and then the next time made two small changes instead of one, and the result is something entirely different than what you had the first time? It's just not apparent what happened unless you go back and walk through the steps one by one, here the hindsight really comes through. (Perhaps the most prime example of this today is the continual rebalancing in games, where one seemingly-individual change now indirectly affects something else that wasn't meant to be changed, and this affects that which affects this, and the result leaves something more to be had because the game changes quite literally fundamentally. Edit: I specifically mean rebalancing here, not just adding new ideas. Like, I know League of Popularness redid its whole fog of war area, it constantly adds new characters, and it just added even more changes to its fundamental structure - these changes are inherent to a game that will never stay the same, however the rebalancing process that takes place there would be so much more refined when applied to Melee, which doesn't change inherently yet new solutions are found enough over time. They are, I think, different beasts and must be approached as so.)

Any changes more broad than these tinier changes and I don't think people would like the game, the people playing melee for melee are already in love with it for what it is. This would have to be an agreed-upon thing, like I said.
 
Last edited:

Y-L

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 16, 2014
Messages
2,436
Location
Ventura, CA
Possibly. But I think if changes were minor enough and agreeable enough then it wouldn't really matter. Pretty much like, not melee 'rebalanced' but just 'melee v1.03'. As if the designers created just one more version before finally deciding on it all.

I mean, yeah, if melee were really changed around, I probably wouldn't like it at all. I'm actually already against the idea. It would have to be a very very conservative change for me to like it. Like, very tiny intermittent buffs to the lower tier cast, and just those nerfs (and one for jiggs) I mentioned to the high tier cast. I would leave the middle tiers largely untouched: Samus, Ganon, Mario, Luigi, Doc, they're all fine how they are. DK could probably have a slightly faster dtilt, he needs that for his close-up game, and maybe a slightly higher vertical gain on his up+b, but I wonder if that would be even too much, he's a bit of a powerhouse on his own. You start thinking "oh, maybe this character could use more of this?" and that's where you start making mistakes because very quickly the changes compound on themselves and suddenly both characters' playstyles are changed, which means the metagame (the core fundamentals that represent Melee for what and how it is as to distinguish it from the rest of the smash games, not who's higher up on the tier list) is affected, and the game can then become something else. When looking at your final product you must always first ask 'what can be removed to make this better?' and if you can't find anything, then you it's already perfect, you don't need to add anything else. But if you find that something sticks out more than the others (like fox's upsmash), then you have to first remove that, and only then can you compare 'ok, fox now has this move, this move, and that move, and they are of this amount of relative power to each other. now link, on the other hand, has all these moves, and yet his power balance there is relatively lower than what fox has: therefore, I think link really has to have this improvement to one of his moves to be considered on-par with fox's relative powers.' Looking beyond any nuances to this process it can still be said that this is a thorough process that the steps cannot be really skipped in any way or else you will get confused and your final product will not be how you thought it would turn out. It's like baking: ever made a recipe one way, and then the next time made two small changes instead of one, and the result is something entirely different than what you had the first time? It's just not apparent what happened unless you go back and walk through the steps one by one, here the hindsight really comes through. (Perhaps the most prime example of this today is the continual rebalancing in games, where one seemingly-individual change now indirectly affects something else that wasn't meant to be changed, and this affects that which affects this, and the result leaves something more to be had because the game changes quite literally fundamentally. Edit: I specifically mean rebalancing here, not just adding new ideas. Like, I know League of Popularness redid its whole fog of war area, it constantly adds new characters, and it just added even more changes to its fundamental structure - these changes are inherent to a game that will never stay the same, however the rebalancing process that takes place there would be so much more refined when applied to Melee, which doesn't change inherently yet new solutions are found enough over time. They are different beasts.)

Any changes more broad than these tinier changes and I don't think people would like the game, the people playing melee for melee are already in love with it for what it is. This would have to be an agreed-upon thing, like I said.
That's not the point the point is that there's going to be people that prefer the gc version and people that prefer the HD version and they can't be used interchangeably if there's any changes at all so this would just divide the community.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
858
Location
PWN
That's not the point the point is that there's going to be people that prefer the gc version and people that prefer the HD version and they can't be used interchangeably if there's any changes at all so this would just divide the community.
Hm. You do realize that you play on different versions of Melee yourself, don't you? And that there is an entire continent of people who play on a different version of Melee as well? People both mind and don't mind the differences in the versions because they are so small.
 

Spak

Hero of Neverwinter
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Messages
4,033
Location
Earth
I hope that there is a 4:3 option if the HD version is released. My 1989 CRT can't handle the HD and my HDTV has pretty bad lag.
 

Roukiske

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Messages
377
Location
CA
Give it the Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo: HD Remix treatment, 2 modes:
  • Normal: untouched *insert version here*
  • Remix: attempt at re-balancing the game
 

Clocked

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 28, 2014
Messages
75
Location
NYC, NY
The issue is that if they rebalance Melee HD, the community gets divided over people who like the changes, and people who don't, and honestly, after 14 years of Melee, I feel like people would prefer to stick with old Melee. Unless the changes were very careful, and very good changes, I know I'd probably stick with old Melee.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
27,486
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
NNID
RedRyu_Smash
3DS FC
0344-9312-3352
HD remix of Melee would be just a PAL release.

I doubt they would aim for a full re-balancing. If they tried to rebalance something it would be Smash 4 not Melee.
 

Y-L

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 16, 2014
Messages
2,436
Location
Ventura, CA
Hm. You do realize that you play on different versions of Melee yourself, don't you? And that there is an entire continent of people who play on a different version of Melee as well? People both mind and don't mind the differences in the versions because they are so small.
Oh please you can't compare the differences between 1.0 1.01 and 1.02 to NTSC and PAL. If someone brought a PAL setup to an NTSC tourney no one would play on it.
 

Spak

Hero of Neverwinter
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Messages
4,033
Location
Earth
Changelist between versions is found here.

There were a lot more changes whenever the game went over to the PAL regions. If they would use the PAL version, competitive Melee in America and Japan would have some extra details to adapt to (such as the second half of Falco's Dair sending people on the Sakurai Angle, Marth is slightly lighter and can't be Waveshined, Ganondorf has a significant nerf to his Bair and Fair, etc.)
 
Last edited:

Clocked

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 28, 2014
Messages
75
Location
NYC, NY
Ganondorf has a significant nerf to his Bair and Fair, etc.)
There's no nerf to Ganon's B-Air in PAL, which is why where a lot of NTSC Ganons use F-Airs mostly, PAL players use B-Air a lot more.
 

Spak

Hero of Neverwinter
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Messages
4,033
Location
Earth
There's no nerf to Ganon's B-Air in PAL, which is why where a lot of NTSC Ganons use F-Airs mostly, PAL players use B-Air a lot more.
Ah, never mind. I meant Ganon's Dair. That was a typo on my part; thank you for the correction.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
858
Location
PWN
Oh please you can't compare the differences between 1.0 1.01 and 1.02 to NTSC and PAL. If someone brought a PAL setup to an NTSC tourney no one would play on it.
That's what would need to be done though, yeah? Think about it: the changes in the game that have been made over these versions have revealed some benefits and some dislikeable things. Therefore a compromise can be made which benefits the strengths of both and yet rounds out the game to be similar throughout.

I mean, I agree that if Nintendo were the sole person to release this game then it would probably be along the lines of the PAL release, that's no question, or if the game were rebalanced disagreeably then people would be split with it, I mean I even say I would be against that up front. But what would it take for a rebalance to be acceptable?

(I understand that preferences exist between the PAL and NTSC versions, I'm attempting to overcome that. Sorry if I'm not understanding what you're saying.)
 
Last edited:

Y-L

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 16, 2014
Messages
2,436
Location
Ventura, CA
That's what would need to be done though, yeah? Think about it: the changes in the game that have been made over these versions have revealed some benefits and some dislikeable things. Therefore a compromise can be made which benefits the strengths of both and yet rounds out the game to be similar throughout.

I mean, I agree that if Nintendo were the sole person to release this game then it would probably be along the lines of the PAL release, that's no question, or if the game were rebalanced disagreeably then people would be split with it, I mean I even say I would be against that up front. But what would it take for a rebalance to be acceptable?

(I understand that preferences exist between the PAL and NTSC versions, I'm attempting to overcome that. Sorry if I'm not understanding what you're saying.)
It doesn't matter which is better/more balanced though, because then melee hd would be made to replace old melee. That inherently creates a divide of people that still want to use old melee versus people wanting to use melee hd.
 
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
7,187
People need to notice this post
Give it the Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo: HD Remix treatment, 2 modes:
  • Normal: untouched *insert version here*
  • Remix: attempt at re-balancing the game
1 side would probably end up bigger than the other after a year or 2. Eventually, the smaller side would join with the bigger one. This idea has happened before with Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix
 

Radirgy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 13, 2014
Messages
90
People are so use to playing 1.1 that it does beg the question how many players would be accepting of it if they had to start playing 1.2? Obviously for anyone living in the PAL regions this is a total no issue but I imagine some players would dislike the nerfs.
 

goobaje

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
39
Location
Michigan
If there was re-balancing, theres no way that it would be as popular. The remix idea is a pretty solid idea tho, because I think most people who play the game competitively would just want a re-skin. It would also be nice to take the lag off of HD monitors
 

Polar Bair

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 26, 2014
Messages
115
Location
Ontario, Canada
NNID
jac398
In terms of regional differences, keep PAL Fox, Falco, Sheik, DK (doesn't lose punch if hit out of up-B), Yoshi (a bit stronger, heavier) and Bowser (heavier). Keep NTSC Marth, Ganon, Samus (extender 2 gud), Link (semi-spike on spin attack) and Mario (heavier). The rest are the same between both versions and should remain unchanged.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,664
SD Remix is a thing.

Even if they may release a Melee HD (which is unlikely, undoubtedly) SDR will inevitably do it better. For some reason, the official developers suck at balancing Mighty Glaciers, while fans do a better job (often by changing relatively little).

Oh, and you can even install HQ textures over SD Remix if you want to.
 
Last edited:

Toranos

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 8, 2014
Messages
6
Location
Germany
I would already be happy with a new Melee version that does not lag on most Flatscreens.
 
Top Bottom