If grabs sucked...

[Superstar]

I mentioned it, then talked with Daed about it for a bit.

Throws are a very large part of the game, so much that many people complain about them [even smartly used ones]. Most characters can guarantee a kill using their grab. But, something I actually thought, throws actually balance the game by giving almost every character an option to kill, and make the game's pace faster because you can kill someone earlier.

So, this is a discussion [or debate, if it gets to that] on how the game would be if every grab sans Falcon/Jiggs/DK's fthrow [those are not of the same kind] sucked so bad that you never used them. How would the game be? How much do throws matter?

Link might be better in the game, and Ness would be significantly worse, for example. Mario wouldn't be able to use his edgeguard ability as well, but so long as throws exist [as sucky as they are] he can still do stuff at earlier percents, I'd expect a slight nerf. Pikachu would be worse [but still great], and Kirby would further surpass the cast [if I remember, his throws are crap, don't remember though]. Surpass Pikachu though, dunno.

I'd say everything I think off, I don't want this to be all I agree/disagree until later.

 

[Nybb]

Wouldn't Samus have pretty much no redeeming features in this case?

And what would happen to Falcon, Puff, and DK's fthrows in this scenario? Do you mean like, they would no longer lead to combos and such? That would be pretty painful for Falcon.

 

[Superstar]

Well, since people usually complain about killing grabs, assume they [combo ones] stay. The purpose is different, so I'm talking about removing an almost universal reliable killing move.

Samus I think would still suck. if she had a normal grab though with midrange knockback, that'd be a significant buff.

 

[Winston]

If grabs suck then Pikachu gets the massive nerf vs Falcon and Fox, characters he can't combo consistently from low percents.

Falcon becomes best character in the game cause he still has his fthrow bs. Haha

I guess Kirby would be good too, but I feel like he's at a slight disdvantage vs Fox.

Samus is still awful, Link becomes mid tier ish I guess because characters lose their easy gimps on him.

 

[WP.]

wow i tried to read the second paragraph and got lost, learn to use clauses imo
so tl:dr

 

[Superstar]

Because your reading skills suck. It's perfectly fine compared to the majority of stuff out there.

O wait, you mean second paragraph, not second portion. I fixed it. Was missing a period and the word if.

 

[Darth Rancorous]

Samus I think would still suck

wow, i feel offended...

 

[NixxxoN]

i dont agree, samus isnt that bad, you need to be good at mindgames with her. She should have an instant grab though, to be "reasonably good" to compete against the higher tiers

 

[Lawrencelot]

If grabs suck then Pikachu gets the massive nerf vs Falcon and Fox, characters he can't combo consistently from low percents.

Falcon becomes best character in the game cause he still has his fthrow bs. Haha

I guess Kirby would be good too, but I feel like he's at a slight disdvantage vs Fox.

Samus is still awful, Link becomes mid tier ish I guess because characters lose their easy gimps on him.

I agree with this

 

[ladyf1r3hawk]

samus isnt that bad, you need to be good at mindgames with her

Samus has the potential to own everybody if you learn how to wavedash into forward smash or superwavedash

 

[Winston]

Samus has the potential to own everybody if you learn how to wavedash into forward smash or superwavedash

These posts are the best.

Also, lol @ Nixxxon

"Samus can be good you can win with her if you outplay your opponents"

... nice character

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Skill and knowledge are more applicable to victory than choice of character??

HOGWASH

edit : When's Isai's samus gonna start SWDing in 64 smash? LOL

 

[Superstar]

i dont agree, samus isnt that bad, you need to be good at mindgames with her. She should have an instant grab though, to be "reasonably good" to compete against the higher tiers

I agree with Dylan, Skill and knowledge are more applicable to victory. But, since Samus is the worst, she sucks. That's relativity.

Yeah I know Dylan was sarcastic. And I can't wait till Isai starts doing that.

Also agree with what Gustav meant.

 

[NixxxoN]

-_-

well my point is, samus is a defensive/mindgame character... She is the worst but she doesnt suck lol

 

[Superstar]

Relative speaking to the rest though, she sucks. That's what counts in tier discussions.

Also, every character is a mindgame character. Defensive is fine, but mindgame?

 

[Winston]

Skill and knowledge are more applicable to victory than choice of character??

HOGWASH

edit : When's Isai's samus gonna start SWDing in 64 smash? LOL

Haha, what's this addressed at? Cause I wasn't advocating tierwhoring or anything, I just like making fun of bad characters...

Also, doesn't Samus have a teleport? O.o

 

[Surri-Sama]

If grabs suck then Pikachu gets the massive nerf vs Falcon and Fox, characters he can't combo consistently from low percents.

Falcon becomes best character in the game cause he still has his fthrow bs. Haha

I guess Kirby would be good too, but I feel like he's at a slight disdvantage vs Fox.

Samus is still awful, Link becomes mid tier ish I guess because characters lose their easy gimps on him.

Pikachu still *****

Falcons grabs get nerfed too

Kirby has allways been at a disadvantage towards fox

Link still gets gimped hard

 

[Superstar]

I think Gustav meant still at a slight disadvantage, not changed.

Link can be gimped EVEN if Brawl throws were in SSB64. So meh thar.

Yeah I said Brawl throws. Cause they are near useless save for CGs, Ness' bthrow, or for spacing only.

 

[Winston]

Pikachu still *****

Falcons grabs get nerfed too

Superstar just said that combo grabs remain intact. So, Falcon still gets to do fthrow > bull**** vs everybody, whereas Pika can't do a whole lot vs Falcon at low percent. He'd have to work harder in that matchup and he'd be at a disadvantage.

 

[evan rules]

Just based on the fact that you need to have mastered an advanced tech (zcancel) to stand a chance against a Ness, Pika, or DK grabber, shows that grabs are way overpowered.

 

[Superstar]

Technically though, depending on how grabs are implemented, everyone would have a combo grab. Assume that's out of the way. :D

Talking about if a more or universal method of killing was gone, what would happen to the game's balance. Just, something that came to my mind. Combo grabs are not really "universal", really.

There could also be a different thread of what would happen if Z-Cancel was gone. Personally, that helps with balance too. Slower chars have better chances with that.

You need to master that advanced tech so you don't lose to someone who knows how to do it as well, so I don't think it makes a bit of difference in competitive play.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Superstar just said that combo grabs remain intact. So, Falcon still gets to do fthrow > bull**** vs everybody, whereas Pika can't do a whole lot vs Falcon at low percent. He'd have to work harder in that matchup and he'd be at a disadvantage.

I Forgot all pikas priority in his arieals and his Tilt spammage comes from his grab...silly me

Pikachu has a great grab game...but sorry to tel all you "omg grab spam *****" people...pikachu has a lot more then that too >_> (thats not point at you Gustav...Winston?)

 

[Winston]

I Forgot all pikas priority in his arieals and his Tilt spammage comes from his grab...silly me

Pikachu has a great grab game...but sorry to tel all you "omg grab spam *****" people...pikachu has a lot more then that too >_> (thats not point at you Gustav...Winston?)

But come on, are you saying that besides aerial > grab, pikachu can do as much to Falcon as Falcon can do to him at low percents? Uptilt spam doesn't work until mid percents...

Falcon has good priority too so it's not like that will just win pika the matchup.

Oh but if Falcon can't combo grab (or if they both can combo grab) I guess Pika still wins. I misunderstood >.>

 

[Surri-Sama]

But come on, are you saying that besides aerial > grab, pikachu can do as much to Falcon as Falcon can do to him at low percents? Uptilt spam doesn't work until mid percents...

Falcon has good priority too so it's not like that will just win pika the matchup.

Oh but if Falcon can't combo grab (or if they both can combo grab) I guess Pika still wins. I misunderstood >.>

Without a Grab Pikachu can still add damage (for me anyways) isn’t really used at low % (other than his grab COMBO! [Yes that means grabGrab!]) I find myself using more Bairs and Usmashes to add %.

And Utilt doesn’t work at mid Percents? O_o no hax DI!


Plus if you wanted to Pika could camp out Falcon and Gimp him with silly things like Uair Chains ^^

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Pikachu has a great grab game...but sorry to tel all you "omg grab spam *****" people...pikachu has a lot more then that too >_>

There is TOO much of that on EGX. TOO F***ING MUCH. If you play captain falcon, fox, any grab heavy character and win online, you're a "grab *****"

Scrubs should be reported and banned from smash 64 online.

edit : LOL surri with the Dylan_Tnga quote signature.

 

[Superstar]

That was, technically, WHY I made this thread.

Everyone says that grabs are all bad, but, I think it actually helps the game when it comes to balance. Also, keeps the game from being slow.

 

[Winston]

I still don't see how you've proven that grabs contribute to balance.

With crap grabs there would be a DIFFERENT balance, some characters would be better and some would be worse, but it wouldn't be more or less balanced necessarily.

And grabs are "bad' in the sense that having a powerful tactic relatively accessible to new players makes some players tend to "plateau" at grab abuse, making the game devolve into something much less fun.

However I do agree that people who complain about grab spam really should stop being so scrubby.

 

[Superstar]

So, grabs kill casual play then. Avoiding them is a bit higher level [I know you can't avoid them completely, but you can reduce the amount of times you get grabbed the same as you can avoid getting DSmashed], so I can see how lower 64 goes completely into throws, like lower Melee goes purely into sidestep grabs and shieldgrabs.

Everything relatively static contributes to balance. Only problem is, grabs are not too static themselves. Korby, Yoshi, Link, Samus don't have great grabs/throws, for example. If there were as many characters as Melee, then I think more or less static but strong grabs/throws would help it.

 

[Winston]

So, grabs kill casual play then. Avoiding them is a bit higher level [I know you can't avoid them completely, but you can reduce the amount of times you get grabbed the same as you can avoid getting DSmashed], so I can see how lower 64 goes completely into throws, like lower Melee goes purely into sidestep grabs and shieldgrabs.

Everything relatively static contributes to balance. Only problem is, grabs are not too static themselves. Korby, Yoshi, Link, Samus don't have great grabs/throws, for example. If there were as many characters as Melee, then I think more or less static but strong grabs/throws would help it.

So you agree that since grabs aren't that "static" (I assume you mean even across characters?), they don't contribute that much to balance?

 

[Kid Nino]

I mentioned it, then talked with Daed about it for a bit.

Throws are a very large part of the game, so much that many people complain about them [even smartly used ones]. Most characters can guarantee a kill using their grab. But, something I actually thought, throws actually balance the game by giving almost every character an option to kill, and make the game's pace faster because you can kill someone earlier.

So, this is a discussion [or debate, if it gets to that] on how the game would be if every grab sans Falcon/Jiggs/DK's fthrow [those are not of the same kind] sucked so bad that you never used them. How would the game be? How much do throws matter?

Link might be better in the game, and Ness would be significantly worse, for example. Mario wouldn't be able to use his edgeguard ability as well, but so long as throws exist [as sucky as they are] he can still do stuff at earlier percents, I'd expect a slight nerf. Pikachu would be worse [but still great], and Kirby would further surpass the cast [if I remember, his throws are crap, don't remember though]. Surpass Pikachu though, dunno.

I'd say everything I think off, I don't want this to be all I agree/disagree until later.

Kirby's forward throw is actually quite good. It's a large part of my Kirby stratedgy, although there is something to note: If other characters throw's weren't available then my Kirby would easily surpass many other's.

In my opinoin, throw's are like the Final Smash in Brawl, err actually more like Smash Moves.

 

[Superstar]

By Static, I mean that many characters have it bad, and some have it good. At that point, it not only balances but disbalances at the same time. So, it's an agree. If they were all good though, that'd help balance a great deal.

At the very least, it makes fighting Kirby less scary, that's something that should be good, right.

Kirby's fthrow...is not good, unless I think you want an off the top kill. Does it kill off the top?

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

kirby's Fthrow in japanese version is scary XD

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

By Static, I mean that many characters have it bad, and some have it good. At that point, it not only balances but disbalances at the same time. So, it's an agree. If they were all good though, that'd help balance a great deal.

At the very least, it makes fighting Kirby less scary, that's something that should be good, right.

Kirby's fthrow...is not good, unless I think you want an off the top kill. Does it kill off the top?

Kirby's fthrow is a garunteed vertical kill at HIGH percents where the opponent is difficult to smash attack

 

[Superstar]

I'll hold you to that Boom. XD If they had to nerf Kirby from the Japanese version...

...

...

DAMMIT SAKURAI

How high we talking? Bleh, I should just try it after school. Kirby wouldn't be able to get off a bair, drill->usmash, or won't utilt also kill at those percents?

 

[MattNF]

I hate when Kirbys camp under the tall platform on Hyrule waiting for a grab.

/randomcomment

 

[Surri-Sama]

I hate when Kirbys camp under the tall platform on Hyrule waiting for a grab.

/randomcomment

whats sad is i've seen people who actually do this =.=

 

[MattNF]

whats sad is i've seen people who actually do this =.=

That's MATTS's main strategy once you get above 100%. And then he complains when I camp him back with Fireballs from across the stage...

 

[NixxxoN]

hyrule green house campers are idiots. No chance to attack them from upside

 

[Superstar]

Erm, if that's true Nixxon, that means they AREN'T idiots.

They're talking about the platforms. Basically, Kirby's Fthrow makes a huge jump before the throw. So, he jumps on top of the high platform, then throws [which shoots vertically].

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

That's MATTS's main strategy once you get above 100%. And then he complains when I camp him back with Fireballs from across the stage...

My main strategy vs matts is dair-falcon punch with captain falcon. Matts! has little to no mindgames so it's not hard to land a stomp on him around 65 percent +

And yes he has beaten me with his uber utilt ownage lol but to be fair my controller was half broken. I wanna rematch that guy when I get re setup I like finding ways around camper kirby's