Ideas for GW Side-B

[Bakuryu]

Ok going to go right ahead and state I am not a GW player, but I do think he is an interesting character and would like to see a little less random with him. (I know this kinda is his thing, but besides Peache'ss turnips and maybe Dedede's waddle dees not many characters have a random element that are part of the core style of play).

So here are two ideas I thought of to maybe spice up his Side-B.


Idea #1:

His side-B starts at 1 and increments each time he hits his opponent? This gives the incentive to use it in combos and makes it a deadly weapon the more its used, since its not random both the player and the opponent know what comes next, but that's what make it interesting because they know they need to change the way they play now because they don't want to get hit. I think it might be fair to make it so it has to hit-hit instead of just connect (like as in shield) to move up and maybe the risk for it is that if you miss you start back at 1. Also if you die you start back at 1.

Thoughts?

Idea #2:

His side-B number is linked to the amount of times he has hit an opponent with a neutral b attack (the projectile not the pan). Anyone who has played Guilty Gear will know what I am stilling this idea from. In GG a character named Johnny has a move that flips a coin at the opponent and if it hits his super gets buffed. For him it can happen three times, but for G&W we can make up to 9. It might be difficult to keep track without a counter though which would increase the difficulty of making this work. Once the move is used it start back at one and stays 1 unless you hit with a neutral b.

Thoughts?

Just my .2 cents I figure this might get shot down for balance reason, but I feel like it would be cool.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Things you did wrong:

1) Made a new thread
2) Talked about Side-B

Whatever happened to the Character Idea Submission Thread?

To respond you the post more directly, the big problem with the incrementing numbers genre of Judgment changes is that essentially every number is inferior to the number after it. So much so that you have practically no incentive to throw a 1 or 2 because even if they hit they are going to be far worse than hitting with a real aerial. Meanwhile hitting with an 8 or 9 have guaranteed results that can sway a whole stock.

So in your first idea (one that has been brought up about 100 times now) a player has to trudge through the mess of all the awkward numbers to get to 9. But the moves aren't balanced for that. I'm not going to go through the list but if you did you could see that there are some numbers that can be abused in silly ways like 3 hammer's shield damage. While in general you would still be focusing heavily on trying to get to the 9 so that G&W can essentially flip a whole stock in his favor. There would be far less reason to make your combos creative and extend them with effective movement or DI reads. Any situation where Side-B can be thrown you would do it to build up for the money shot.

Your other idea suffers from similar problems. Since Chef is so spammable that's what you would do. Find creative ways to run away and throw more projectiles until you get that sweet 9. I could also bring up a lot of points about how your Guilty Gear comparison doesn't even come close to working. Johnny has a set number of coins so the spam potential is weak. Also the super buff is only a consolation prize considering the combo potential that comes from landing a coin hit.

 

[Bakuryu]

Things you did wrong:

1) Made a new thread
2) Talked about Side-B

Whatever happened to the Character Idea Submission Thread?

To respond you the post more directly, the big problem with the incrementing numbers genre of Judgment changes is that essentially every number is inferior to the number after it. So much so that you have practically no incentive to throw a 1 or 2 because even if they hit they are going to be far worse than hitting with a real aerial. Meanwhile hitting with an 8 or 9 have guaranteed results that can sway a whole stock.

So in your first idea (one that has been brought up about 100 times now) a player has to trudge through the mess of all the awkward numbers to get to 9. But the moves aren't balanced for that. I'm not going to go through the list but if you did you could see that there are some numbers that can be abused in silly ways like 3 hammer's shield damage. While in general you would still be focusing heavily on trying to get to the 9 so that G&W can essentially flip a whole stock in his favor. There would be far less reason to make your combos creative and extend them with effective movement or DI reads. Any situation where Side-B can be thrown you would do it to build up for the money shot.

Your other idea suffers from similar problems. Since Chef is so spammable that's what you would do. Find creative ways to run away and throw more projectiles until you get that sweet 9. I could also bring up a lot of points about how your Guilty Gear comparison doesn't even come close to working. Johnny has a set number of coins so the spam potential is weak. Also the super buff is only a consolation prize considering the combo potential that comes from landing a coin hit.

I don't see why making a new thread was wrong especially considering the G&W section hasn't even hit a second page yet. To answer why I didn't post in the character idea submission thread is because I wanted to ask people who actually played the character versus just everyone who plays the game. This isn't to say people in that thread couldn't be a G&W player, but my chances of getting a response based on actual experience with the character increased greatly by posting here.

I didn't realize Side-B was such taboo, if that's the case why not have a sticky for it? I see about three posts regarding his side-b at least in this section, which would be the area I figured would make sense to discuss ideas for that character (at least so I thought?) One is simply a question of how it worked, the other is how to punish one of it's variants, and the last is actually an idea.

Again I've only checked this section, but even now a quick search of "Game & Watch side b" or "Game & Watch Judge" few if any related topics to my first idea. I never assume the idea was original, more wondering why it hasn't happened. A solution to the issue of the fact that its not balanced is to actually balance it that way. If you actually made them incrementally better there would be an incentive to use them to begin with. I disagree that you would make less creative combos and even if that were true the trade off remains getting that hit to potentially get a more powerful move or damage them more and hope for the kill that way. Relying on the judgement is risky because if you miss you reset and since the move is actually pretty laggy you can get punished for it hard. I think the trade off balances it off, but that's just me.

I realize the second idea isn't as great and yes I do realize Johnny only had a set number of coins. The comparison was made simply of the idea of a hit incrementing something I never said the metagame matched completely.

All in all I feel like the random elements of his side-b just hurt more then help him and thus make it a less useful move overall, the dot system is nice, but its a lot to keep track of (one dot 5, ok so next is odd and not 5 or the last one before that. now repeatedly keep track of that the entire match. Which number was two swings ago? Did that last one have one dot or two?)

Just my .2 cents. I hope other people will give their opinion as well.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

My idea for G&W's Side B:

G&W - Holding B during Judgement would allow G&W to "hold" the Judgement in a similar manner to how he holds his bucket special. During this time, G&W can turn left/right at will (like with Bucket), but in a stationary position. He cannot cancel this animation through any means besides being hit by an opponent, or by releasing the Judgement.