Ice Climbers removed for lack of processing power; 3DS maintains "bloom" PP effect.

[AdamHamburglar]

While I may not know too much about game development, or coding, or graphics and all that, I know a little bit.

Sakurai says that Ice Climbers were removed due to lack of power on the 3DS, and that makes perfect sense, but an easy fix that I can't believe would not have been brought up at Nintendo is the bloom post-processing effect in the 3DS version.

In case you haven't noticed (nobody I've seen yet has), the 3DS has an effect on the screen called "bloom". If you don't know what bloom is, here is a comparison of bloom off, and different kinds of bloom on:

For less powerful consoles, such as the 3DS/Wii/GC, this is a very intense effect that can lower framerates a huge amount, and more importantly, uses a lot of processing power.

In Smash 3DS, this effect is so subtle that nobody has noticed it (that I've spoken too), yet. If it was removed to free up CPU/GPU power for the Ice Climbers, nobody would be complaining, especially since it hasn't been in any previous Smash titles.


If anybody knows more about this kind of stuff, and I'm actually super-wrong about all this, just let me know.

P.S. I don't actually care that much about Ice Climbers being gone, I just know that a lot of other people do.

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

I personally think the second thing he said is the more likely reason. He said they weren't a high enough priority to bother figuring out how to get them to work.

 

[AdamHamburglar]

I personally think the second thing he said is the more likely reason. He said they weren't a high enough priority to bother figuring out how to get them to work.

Yeah, I guess that excuses it, but they would have at least tried a little.

 

[TypePositive]

I imagine they had a couple guys working on it, but it would have been too time consuming to get them to work properly in relation to the other characters and game mechanics to bother. It's not like they had infinite time to get the game done.

 

[Flaxr XIII]

I personally think the second thing he said is the more likely reason. He said they weren't a high enough priority to bother figuring out how to get them to work.

Yeah I've pretty much accepted this as the reason. Especially with the deadlines they had to reach. Still, when DLC comes around, hopefully a good amount of time after both versions are released, Ice Climbers better be first in line...

Also, is Bloom a bad thing? I personally kind of like it but I hear it's bad when they use too much. What's going on there?

 

[AdamHamburglar]

Yeah I've pretty much accepted this as the reason. Especially with the deadlines they had to reach. Still, when DLC comes around, hopefully a good amount of time after both versions are released, Ice Climbers better be first in line...

Also, is Bloom a bad thing? I personally kind of like it but I hear it's bad when they use too much. What's going on there?

Honestly, I'd rather have bloom than Ice Climbers. I'm just saying that bloom is a small thing that doesn't really matter, and everyone seems to be freaking out over Ice Climbers.

 

[Jahnathan]

Bloom isn't intensive at all, i'm pretty sure the reason they're using it is because it's one of the least intensive lighting effects out there. The real reason ice climbers aren't in is because having more than 4 characters on screen running at 60 fps would cause extreme lag (5 or 6 might have been okay, but any more than that would probably cause the frame rate to tank), and I could imagine having Nana run at 30 would be really wonky and hard to control.

 

[Untouch]

The game starts to stutter a bit with 4 players.
Imagine 8.

Yes, it's 8, the ice climbers have AI based on the computer AI. Pikmin and luma do not.

Does luma even act independently? I thought they just do whatever action rosalina is doing.

 

[Flaxr XIII]

Honestly, I'd rather have bloom than Ice Climbers. I'm just saying that bloom is a small thing that doesn't really matter, and everyone seems to be freaking out over Ice Climbers.

Ohhhh yes that was me as well, freaking out over the Icies. But I've thought about and looked at the various informations. Limitations aside, it was the time constraints that killed the Ice Climbers.
I just hope that they'll work on making SoPo work when both versions are out. Make it happen, Captain.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

"Oh, a character is really intensive on our engine and doesn't seem likely to work. Why don't we rewrite our graphics engine to be less demanding so that character will run?"

That's... basically what this topic is arguing. That's not realistic in any school of game design.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

"Oh, a character is really intensive on our engine and doesn't seem likely to work. Why don't we rewrite our graphics engine to be less demanding so that character will run?"

That's... basically what this topic is arguing. That's not realistic in any school of game design.

He's not arguing anything... his only statement is "If it was removed to free up CPU/GPU power for the Ice Climbers, nobody would be complaining"

 

[ChikoLad]

Yeah, lighting effects have nothing to do with this. Ice Climbers are two relatively complex character models that are fully animated in past games. Not only that, but for every script the player activates for Popo, Nana (controlled by the CPU) has to activate the same one with a slight delay.

These kinds of things going on with 4 Ice Climbers players at once is why they were removed.

I know a lot of people bring up Rosalina & Luma as a counter-argument, but they work very differently (Luma doesn't have player based AI and his attacks are directly inputted by the player) and Luma is basically a ball that extrudes it's limbs outwards for attacks.

 

[KingErazer]

GPU and graphic effects have nothing to do with character coding, It's more so the AI from Nana and how the new engine works, It's more of the CPU than the GPU, and I think it has something do with the fact that nintendo realized how weak the CPU is and decided to make a new system.

 

[Naoshi]

Removing bloom would not significantly help anything on the CPU side, that's a GPU thing. Ice Climbers are both GPU and CPU intensive, so there's more to it than just the graphics.

 

[MagnesD3]

Add them on the wii u, keep their fans happy and dont be a jerk.

 

[TriMaxTime]

Let's face it, 30 FPS Nana would be super annoying.

 

[Radical Larry]

Let's face it, 30 FPS Nana would be super annoying.

30 FPS Ice Climbers...that'd feel really, really choppy, especially if it's just one.

 

[GeNo-BreaKer]

Add them on the wii u, keep their fans happy and dont be a jerk.

This. Ice Climbers should be Wii U exclusive characters. The Wii U version of the game costs $20 more than the 3DS version and it comes out later. Since there's no cross-play, one Wii U exclusive character doesn't hurt anyone. 3DS owners can't complain. They bought the cheaper version. They already decided that they were gonna have worse controls. It's a shame that the first HD Smash Bros. game is held back by the cheaper handheld game for no reason.

 

[PeterJude]

This. Ice Climbers should be Wii U exclusive characters. The Wii U version of the game costs $20 more than the 3DS version and it comes out later. Since there's no cross-play, one Wii U exclusive character doesn't hurt anyone. 3DS owners can't complain. They bought the cheaper version. They already decided that they were gonna have worse controls. It's a shame that the first HD Smash Bros. game is held back by the cheaper handheld game for no reason.

They advertised that the two games would have the same roster.

 

[Raijinken]

Bloom is pretty, and I highly doubt the framerate was the only reason the ICs got dropped. They've been a notorious balance issue since Melee.

 

[MugenLord]

I'm pretty sure if it was that simple, you would think Nintendo would have done it.....I mean, I am pretty sure that these guys went to college to learn this kind of stuff and they probably been working on multiple games since half us was still elementary school at the time. So it's not that simple and yea it sucks that IC is not in the game but we still have an amazing cast of characters standing before us right now.

 

[Cactusblah]

I find it very disappointing that the 3DS version holds back the Wii U version in any way. The games have different stages and modes already, so why can't Ice Climbers be in the Wii U version?

 

[PeterJude]

I find it very disappointing that the 3DS version holds back the Wii U version in any way. The games have different stages and modes already, so why can't Ice Climbers be in the Wii U version?

Because they committed to have the same roster across both platforms.

Considering that there was a serious chance that there was never going to be Wii U version, we should be grateful that there even is one, not angry that we're missing a fringe character that's not had a game since before the majority of the demographic were born.

 

[Toukans]

What if they made Nana into sprites. Weird but could work, no?

 

[wingo]

*puts on tin foil hat*

 

[MagnesD3]

I'm pretty sure if it was that simple, you would think Nintendo would have done it.....I mean, I am pretty sure that these guys went to college to learn this kind of stuff and they probably been working on multiple games since half us was still elementary school at the time. So it's not that simple and yea it sucks that IC is not in the game but we still have an amazing cast of characters standing before us right now.

I think this is arguable about the amazing cast of characters part but I digress.

 

[Conda]

Bloom doesn't take cpu power, the way ice climbers work does.

 

[Code Bread]

Because they committed to have the same roster across both platforms.

Considering that there was a serious chance that there was never going to be Wii U version, we should be grateful that there even is one, not angry that we're missing a fringe character that's not had a game since before the majority of the demographic were born.

This.
People should stop complaining about the 3ds and complain more about how Sakurai is gracing them with WiiU version.

 

[TheAnvil]

I personally think the second thing he said is the more likely reason. He said they weren't a high enough priority to bother figuring out how to get them to work.

Kinda a lame excuse when he considers Kid Icarus having 3 characters and Fire Emblem having 4 characters to be higher priority than a Smash Bros staple returning.

 

[shogungari]

Putting aside IC was my main for two games (Nana lead ftw), a big pet peeve of mine is bloom. In every game I see it proudly shown, all it does is make the screen blurry and difficult to look at. I'd rather have a veteren come back than some graphical gimmick that makes me squint until I can find the button to turn it off.

 

[Xzsmmc]

Kinda a lame excuse when he considers Kid Icarus having 3 characters and Fire Emblem having 4 characters to be higher priority than a Smash Bros staple returning.

Especially since he said Uprising was a one off.

 

[Code Bread]

Kinda a lame excuse when he considers Kid Icarus having 3 characters and Fire Emblem having 4 characters to be higher priority than a Smash Bros staple returning.

Didn't they include Lucina, Dr. Mario, and Dark Pit as clones because they had finished the original roster and had very little free time, so they made clones to pack into the game at little expense? Don't quote me on that; I'm an idiot.
But I think making IC return would require a lot more effort in development than remasking those three.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The game starts to stutter a bit with 4 players.
Imagine 8.

Yes, it's 8, the ice climbers have AI based on the computer AI. Pikmin and luma do not.

Does luma even act independently? I thought they just do whatever action rosalina is doing.

This is correct, Luma cannot attack on its own. It tries to maintain a certain position relative to Rosalina once you send it out and wanders around a little bit if you just let it idle, but that's the extent of its AI from what I can tell. You could probably condense its entire algorithm (such as it is) into a flowchart. (Which you can do with a lot of algorithms I suppose but Luma is particularly simple.)

 

[EmblemCrossing]

What if they made Nana into sprites. Weird but could work, no?

Sprite Climbers.

 

[GeNo-BreaKer]

Because they committed to have the same roster across both platforms.

Considering that there was a serious chance that there was never going to be Wii U version, we should be grateful that there even is one, not angry that we're missing a fringe character that's not had a game since before the majority of the demographic were born.

lol @ "serious chance that there was never going to be a Wii U version" Yes, because Nintendo is totally not gonna have a home console centric local multipalyer game that sells millions on the latest Nintendo home console. There could have been a 3DS version only, but obviously Sakurai realized that playing a local multiplayer centric game that was built around the analog stick on a handheld was never going to come close to a home console counterpart.

 

[Khao]

Considering that there was a serious chance that there was never going to be Wii U version, we should be grateful that there even is one,

This.
People should stop complaining about the 3ds and complain more about how Sakurai is gracing them with WiiU version.

Everyone everywhere keeps saying this when the only interview/article that talks about it says nothing anywhere close to it.

The only thing that happened was Sakurai being like "I don't know how to move the series forward. Is making the game portable the way to go? No, let's make two versions."

The game had as much chance of being 3DS only as it had to being Wii U only. It was simply one of their options, and fact is, they didn't take it, so I don't understand why it is so relevant anymore. The Wii U version is not a strange casuality, it's not a bonus version, it's not an extra addition to the real project. (Neither is the 3DS version, in case anyone takes this as if that's what I'm trying to say.) It's something that's been there from the very beginning, way, way before development even started. I mean, remember the first time they said Smash Bros was coming to both Wii U and 3DS? Sakurai was still doing Kid Icarus, the game wasn't even a thing then, just a future, distant project that wasn't being worked on in any sense of the word.

Sorry if this is off-topic, but it just bothers me that a lot of people act as if the original plan was making the game 3DS-only when it's far from the truth.

At no point was there a "plan" to make the game exclusive to 3DS, they had to choose a platform and briefly considered 3DS before deciding that it'd be better to make it for both, that's it. Heck, in the same interview, Sakurai aknowledges that the game works better in a bigger screen, so there's basically no way it would have ever been left out of the Wii U.

 

[Wintropy]

Kinda a lame excuse when he considers Kid Icarus having 3 characters and Fire Emblem having 4 characters to be higher priority than a Smash Bros staple returning.

Those characters aren't technically taxing on the game's hardware, though.

Add them on the wii u, keep their fans happy and dont be a jerk.

Then you're just alienating the fans whom are playing on the 3DS. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with "Sakurai being a jerk". Throwing them onto the Wii U and letting 3DS fans wallow in their absence is just a lousy move and would only further incense 3DS fans that already feel like the game is playing second fiddle to the technically superior Wii U. Be grateful that they even tried at all and didn't just scrap them anyway thinking that nobody actually like them.

 

[Megane-for-Life]

This. Ice Climbers should be Wii U exclusive characters. The Wii U version of the game costs $20 more than the 3DS version and it comes out later. Since there's no cross-play, one Wii U exclusive character doesn't hurt anyone. 3DS owners can't complain. They bought the cheaper version. They already decided that they were gonna have worse controls. It's a shame that the first HD Smash Bros. game is held back by the cheaper handheld game for no reason.

Yeah, because everyone can just decide to have enough money to get a wiiu and buy the game.

 

[MagnesD3]

Those characters aren't technically taxing on the game's hardware, though.



Then you're just alienating the fans whom are playing on the 3DS. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with "Sakurai being a jerk". Throwing them onto the Wii U and letting 3DS fans wallow in their absence is just a lousy move and would only further incense 3DS fans that already feel like the game is playing second fiddle to the technically superior Wii U. Be grateful that they even tried at all and didn't just scrap them anyway thinking that nobody actually like them.

Who cares, they are paying less than the wii u owners, they dont deserve the full experience if they arent willing to pay. They need the wii u version to sell, nintendo will need more than just mario kart to save the wii u. Also if the 3ds fans are really ice climber fans they would buy the wii u version, otherwise they have no right to complain. Im willing to pay the money for a better product, if everyone else wants a better product they should be willing to pay as well.

The amount of money Nintendo is going to miss out on by not making the wii u version really stand out is going to be insane, they are so bad at making business decisions if there is truly nothing that the consumer really wants on the wii u version The only things I can think of that will sell it are Characters and maybe lagless online/tons of online options.

 

[GeNo-BreaKer]

Yeah, because everyone can just decide to have enough money to get a wiiu and buy the game.

If you aren't willing to pay, then you don't get the Ice Climbers. 3DS owners should be grateful that they get Smash to play everywhere, not locked down to the TV, and that they get Smash Bros. at $40. That's a steal for a Smash Bros. game. 3DS owners shouldn't complain if Wii U owners get one extra character. They pay $20 more. If you don't want Wii U owners to get more for the game that they payed even more to play than you did, that's pretty selfish.