"I won't hold back on anyone!"- The Palutena Match-Up Discussion Thread- vs. ZSS and Palutena ditto

[MysteriousSilver]

Palutena is awful. The game is just pretty well balanced.

I dabbled in using her today, and although I see OBVIOUS glaring flaws, she's not as bad as Ganon, and she's got some strong advantages very few people of her weight class can emulate. She's got a good deal of KO moves that do the trick at efficient percentages (b-air, u-air, all smashes) if not better, and legit combos out of her d-throw. For close range issues, just auto-combos with light attacks can quickly get you breathing room.

However, she's still slow on ALL her tilts and smash attacks, save her u-smash, but her u-smash has virtually no horizontal reach, all of this being pretty hard to manage in a game where speed is normally king. Also, her special moves are pretty bad. If her neutral b was a more potent projectile, I'd be singing a different tune.

It's really hard to say this early on, and I do think she'll probably end up falling behind some characters (ZSS, Sheik) but I disagree. I know this is common talk, but I think people just think she's bad because they're using her wrong. Even if we're just talking default moveset... Auto-reticule cannot be used quite like a normal projectile because of the way that it targets, and you don't want to use it close up or at medium distance vs. short characters. But it also has some really strong properties. It eats up certain character's projectile spam really well and hits them with two shots for their trouble, it can punish certain things from half FD for 9%, and it doesn't do bad shield damage at all. I'm haven't really decided if I like the move, but I think you do it a disservice.

AR and her tilts have the same disease--you can't just throw that **** out. Yeah, her tilts are mad laggy... so don't use them unless you want a real meaty move. You can rack up plenty of damage with jab, AR, auto-canceled fairs, or jab -> grab -> dthrow -> whatever and never really be at a huge risk. I'd love a tilt that was a better spacing tool, I admit, but SH Fair puts in a lot of work in this department. I don't think she's awful at all, unless it's just that everyone else is better. I don't see her having any huge holes in her gameplan.

 

[TheJerm]

Yo Jerm, you play Palutena too? Lol I thought I was going to be the only one in our region.

Yea, Im maining her and lucina. But a little more Palutena. We are going to have some crazy characters going around Texas. And asidoh, pretty cool we got linked up lol. Those were fun matches but I dont think its anything we need to upload

 

[chipndip]

It's really hard to say this early on, and I do think she'll probably end up falling behind some characters (ZSS, Sheik) but I disagree. I know this is common talk, but I think people just think she's bad because they're using her wrong. Even if we're just talking default moveset... Auto-reticule cannot be used quite like a normal projectile because of the way that it targets, and you don't want to use it close up or at medium distance vs. short characters. But it also has some really strong properties. It eats up certain character's projectile spam really well and hits them with two shots for their trouble, it can punish certain things from half FD for 9%, and it doesn't do bad shield damage at all. I'm haven't really decided if I like the move, but I think you do it a disservice.

AR and her tilts have the same disease--you can't just throw that **** out. Yeah, her tilts are mad laggy... so don't use them unless you want a real meaty move. You can rack up plenty of damage with jab, AR, auto-canceled fairs, or jab -> grab -> dthrow -> whatever and never really be at a huge risk. I'd love a tilt that was a better spacing tool, I admit, but SH Fair puts in a lot of work in this department. I don't think she's awful at all, unless it's just that everyone else is better. I don't see her having any huge holes in her gameplan.

What you say is true, but auto-reticle is inferior to almost any other projectile. It's more of an annoyance with no follow-up, instead of a real tool that gets something done. It doesn't help her approach and it doesn't help her stall. That's the issue with the move. It's mediocre for getting anything done.

If you don't see huge holes in her game plan, then you're being way too lenient.

Side note: I'm a Texas playa too! D:>

 

[TsuKiyoMe]

If you're thinking about Auto Reticule as an approach tool, you're doing it wrong. It's a tool for camping and to bait people to approach you from the air. Jumping in is vs Palutena is good for you as her ground to air game is really strong. If they dash in and shield it, it eats away a ton of their shield. It also beats a lot of other projectiles clean so they can't camp you back.

Auto Reticule is a tool that is used to dictate the pace of a match.

 

[Scourge The Hedgehog]

AR is definitely a spacing and defensive tool used for camping and prodding the opponent to approach. Tried to use it to combo with but it just doesn't work properly. Sure it beats out some projectiles like an uncharged Arrow and ZSS taser shot but its not very useful.

Match Up Percent (imo): Palutena 70% Little Mac 30%

As far as match ups go I feel like Palutena has an advantage over Little Mac. Her Smash attacks have such great knock back. In this particular case if the Little Mac is playing patiently then AR is useful. Heck you can even gimp him with AR if timed properly. Bair kills him pretty early and since he has lack luster aerial moves she really shines off stage. Once you get him airborne she basically have full control over him. Most Little Macs will try and edge guard with a smash attack so Counter works wonders.

Haven't played any Greninja with Palutena yet so I don't have stand on that match up yet.

 

[chipndip]

It's a bad camping tool AND a bad approach tool is what I said. Approaching from the air? The thing only shoots at one spot in one direction + it's slow to start up (although the shots are fast and layered, so even reflecting them is difficult. There's is merit in that). You don't want people double jumping or air dodging the shots, and this thing is definitely not a proper anti-air. It's got no real knock back (doesn't KO at 999%...) so camping/zoning is wonky, but it's not good for starting an offense either due to its bad speed.

(Toon) Link's boomerang/arrow/bomb cycle can dictate the pace of a match. Yoshi's eggs can dictate the pace of a match. Robin's spells can dictate the pace of a match. This move? It's ok chip damage against slower chars, but it gets nothing done except for 9%. It doesn't play into anything. That's the issue.

 

[Hydde]

AR is definitely a spacing and defensive tool used for camping and prodding the opponent to approach. Tried to use it to combo with but it just doesn't work properly. Sure it beats out some projectiles like an uncharged Arrow and ZSS taser shot but its not very useful.

Match Up Percent (imo): Palutena 70% Little Mac 30%

As far as match ups go I feel like Palutena has an advantage over Little Mac. Her Smash attacks have such great knock back. In this particular case if the Little Mac is playing patiently then AR is useful. Heck you can even gimp him with AR if timed properly. Bair kills him pretty early and since he has lack luster aerial moves she really shines off stage. Once you get him airborne she basically have full control over him. Most Little Macs will try and edge guard with a smash attack so Counter works wonders.

Haven't played any Greninja with Palutena yet so I don't have stand on that match up yet.

A Mac that is owned that hard against a Palutena, is not playing MAc properly.

What you described sounds like a Mac controlled by the AI. Any decent mac will be all around Palutena.

 

[Scourge The Hedgehog]

Perhaps they were playing him wrong. I've played a large variety of Little Mac from in person to friends to For Glory. There seems to be two type of Little Mac play styles that are very common at the moment. One is the aggressive play style which will consist of constant dash attacks, tilts, and forward smashes. Then the second is the very patient Little Mac which will wait for you to approach and punish. They'll bait you into a jab combo usually since it racks up the damage. In both play styles you can still gimp him pretty easily. Then again maybe it is just how I play Palutena. I'm very patient when it comes to this character. Again this is all my personal opinion and is based off what I played. I'm sure I'm entitled to that much since it is a discussion.

 

[chipndip]

Perhaps they were playing him wrong. I've played a large variety of Little Mac from in person to friends to For Glory. There seems to be two type of Little Mac play styles that are very common at the moment. One is the aggressive play style which will consist of constant dash attacks, tilts, and forward smashes. Then the second is the very patient Little Mac which will wait for you to approach and punish. They'll bait you into a jab combo usually since it racks up the damage. In both play styles you can still gimp him pretty easily. Then again maybe it is just how I play Palutena. I'm very patient when it comes to this character. Again this is all my personal opinion and is based off what I played. I'm sure I'm entitled to that much since it is a discussion.

You are entitled to that much, but we're just being objective here.

Well, as much as we can be.

 

[Glaciacott]

Ok, fought many Little Macs and Greninjas in preparation. Not as much Greninja, sadly, but it'll do.

Little Mac
30/70 at our disadvantage in FD/Omega
60/40 most other stages given platforms

As I think of these match-ups I try to think of two equally skilled players, and in that sense I just see Little Mac having plenty more options than Palutena. Easily. Let me go with the negatives first. This is all assuming Final
- Mac's smash attacks have stupidly greater speed and priority, and even if you block correctly he can ready the next hit before you successfully pull out a tilt or smash, which shortens Palutena's keep-away and killing options.
- Mac can easily go around any of Palutena's techniques to keep him away. I see people singing praises of AR, but to be honest, while it's useful in certain cases it fails more often than not. Also, in the case of Little Mac, he can easily dash upon seeing the move activated, go below any of the shots and punish really badly. I'd only use AR if Mac is returning and in the air, and even then I think there are better options.
Basically, I feel like using this move at the needed distance winds up just leaving you open if Mac knows how to bait it.
- Reflect is completely useless in this match. At best you can mess them up for a millisecond before they're pounding on you.
- Palutena's greatest strength is in the air, and if Mac stays in the ground it's pretty tough hitting him with something like a Fair without him punishing with, again, greater priority moves. However, I admit this one is more of a situation of me finding myself unable to short hop properly enough in the 3DS to make Fair hit a grounded Mac.
- Also in this mentality, good Macs know how to fall effectively which means the best use of his air time winds up being a mindgame situation where you alternate between aerial punish and baiting a dodge to then smash attack. But again, mis-time it by a second and Little Mac could be pummeling you again.
- I personally fear using any tilts in this match-up. The punish isn't worth it much when the jab can deal faster damage and set up better, and they're all extremely punishable due to the lag

What Palutena has
- Her jab is phenomenal against Mac. It comes out fast, and can stop a Mac that's in the middle of a dash attack or jolt haymaker. Very effective tool
- Warp is fantastic to distance yourself when necessary, but needs to be really carefully used, as landing lag can be punished by a quick-witted Mac (such a fast character)
- Counter is also a great tool given how well it can punish common Mac techniques. However, keep in mind that if you time this wrong, you're paying for it dearly. But hey! So does he when he mistimes a slip counter!
- Grabs work fantastically. Now, I admit that everyone says "Dthrow leads perfectly into Fair/Nair/Uair and into combos but in all honesty, it rarely works for me. People see it coming and jump away before I can get the damage in. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? In any case, I want to see competitive matches with Palutena to see how exactly people are doing this. In any case, all grabs work really well and set up Mac for follow up hits, it just requires care and thought.
- Palutena's dash attack cancels out Mac's own dash by virtue of the shield. That shield is fantastic actually, and the cool thing is also that it launches him into the air. The problem: it's a dash attack that stops Palutena short, so time it wrong and suddenly you're right in front of the fist.

Optimal movesets if customizable
Standard B: AR/EF
Heavenly light will never be useful for Mac given they'll want to stay grounded, and if you have them above you there's better things to do to keep them in the air.

Side B: Super Speed
A faster dash attack option? Yes please. Reflect is useless in this match-up, and angelic missile offers less options and is more telegraphed.

Down B: Counter
An extremely useful asset in this fight if used well. I hear a lot of people really liking light weight, but this is a match up where I don't think speed is much of an asset and becoming light weight is too much of a cost.
Celestial Fireworks could be interesting if timed well as it send Mac upwards, but I don't find it as good at punishing as Counter given Mac's raw power.

Up B: Warp
Like I said, being in the air just gives Mac the choice of where to run and Smash attack, and in that sense I personally prefer Warp to quickly get back to the stage ideally before he can think about what to do.
Rocket Jump could be a good option for OOS, but the weaker recovery is a shame especially since with Mac it's fun to follow him off-stage for the gimp.

Optimal stages
Not FD/Omega. Then we win xD


Greninja
50/50
I honestly find this to be a fairly neutral match, surprisingly, based on the battles I've had. In pretty much every viable stage too. My thoughts

- Shadow Sneak can be really annoying, but once you learn to pay attention to the shadow, it is very punishable, and 90% of the time I was able to punish with a grab and then follow up. Probably Greninja's most punishable move if poorly done. What makes it a bit problematic is that the timing can be weird sometimes but honestly, very easy to deal with just PAY ATTENTION TO THE SHADOW
- The shuriken is useless against Palutena. The only time it posed some danger was when used to edge guard, but even then proper reading of the situation means it's not a problem. At all.
- Greninja's counter is one of the weirder ones and around Lucario level of useful without the boost of aura. When fighting him it was rare for it to connect and it hurts when it does but it's nothing awful tbh. Also, f-tilt cancels out the counter if it connects.
- The air. What makes this match-up interestingly even is that both characters have powerful air game, and it's a matter of who can read the other player better. A lot of what Greninja likes to do can be easily read and punished by palutena. His Bounce (dair) is an awful thing against a good player who can dodge it and punish easily, and Palutena's Uair is frankly more fearful. Since Greninja goes so high with every jump that means Uair is always a possibility. In fact, all of Palutena's aerials can be really good against greninja.
That said, it also has great aerials. Fair and Bair are both strong with good reach and can kill easily. However, I found that they can be easy to predict and counter. More nasty is Greninja's juggling with Uair, but again, it's telegraphed and punishable with counter. or dodge and hey! now you're below Greninja >=D
In the end, when it comes to the air, I'd say Palutena has better options given things like Usmash, a better counter, greater mobility with things like Jump Glide and Warp, whereas Greninja has the fast rise and fast fall arc that's easy to get used to when facing and his recovery, while good, is useless for mobility. I saw attempts to use it to mess with my space since the water propels you in a different direction, but to no avail. I guess it helps I never tried to gimp Greninja below the stage but preferred to wait in the stage to punish the super high jump with my variety of options.

Now that I write it down it feels like it leans towards Palutena's favor, but I'm keeping in mind that Greninja's speed coupled with a lot of powerful moves, good grabs and throws that set up, and many attacks that kill and have great reach (eg. USmash, Fair, Uair) I feel like equally matched players will be at a constant back and forth.
And I briefly mentioned it, but watch out for USmash. It has fantastic reach and hits really hard. It's always best to avoid it and then punish with grab. Counter if you're risky.

Optimal movesets if customizable
Standard B: Heavenly Light
At many points in time, chances are Greninja will be above you, so this one makes a lot more sense than the other two options. AR is actually not bad against Greninja and can halt Shadow Sneak even. But it faces the same problem as Mac where its dash keeps it low so if it reacts properly to it, it can punish AR very effectively. As for Explosive flame, it's not a good keepaway seeing how Greninja can just leap over it or shadow sneak.
Meanwhile, I can think of plenty of times when Greninja jumps over me to avoid a gimp where heavenly light could have punished with extra damage. And if there's platforms even more.

Side B: Reflect
Super Speed is also a phenomenal option since it can work as a fantastic approach, but honestly, reflect means that Greninja's entire shuriken game is completely useless and it forces him to approach via air or shadow sneak, both punishable. I haven't seen reflect work so well since Lucario and Samus fights.

Down B: Counter/Lightweight
Both really viable options. Celestial fireworks isn't great against Greninja, while counter can keep you from becoming easy fodder for highly predictable juggles and air game (and smash attacks), while lightweight can make the battle a more aggressive one for Palutena and can also work really well.

Up B: Jumpglide
I love Warp, personally, but I think Jumpglide can work fantastically for movement in this match up, and playing with it in the air can bait a lot of common Greninja behavior. More movement in the air = good stuff.

Optimal stages
Platforms work really nicely for Palutena since she can hit Greninja better from the ground than the other way around, while also being capable in the air.
Arena Ferox in particular is a fantastic stage to fight greninja given that walls can limit its movement while still allowing smash attacks like Usmash from Palutena to go through, as well as Uair and Nair.

 

[Fluttershy]

One thing i have noticed with Shadow sneak is that on Pictochat's omega form you can't see it coming because the color of the stage matches the shadow. so it might be a good idea to avoid it if possible

 

[Revolution6 aka alterego]

One thing i have noticed with Shadow sneak is that on Pictochat's omega form you can't see it coming because the color of the stage matches the shadow. so it might be a good idea to avoid it if possible

this also applys to the baloon trip stage

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

Greninja's counter gets beat out by Palutena's f-tilt. Her up-air also beats out his dair, which is nice.

 

[YAYCONFORMITY]

Autoreticule is VERY situational against little Mac. If you want, you can keep in on the set just to punish a very bad whiff with a splash of damage or try to gimp, but generally he can dash and avoid it on reaction.

Once you get him in the air, there is not much he can do. If you're going to win this match, you're going to need to capitalize on these opportunities. Try to push them towards the edge with F/b/nairs.

I actually find ftilt useful, but ONLY when spaced with the utmost care. Mac has no way around the meaty hitbox, so it can hit him on a careless rush.

I don't find counter useful, but then I generally suck at timing those.

Once he's offstage, you're in good shape. If he has to recover horizontally you can time a F or Usmash. If he has to go vertical, try for a Dair.

Other than that, there's not much to say. If he gets in your face, you're gonna have a bad time. If you can keep him away, you'll be good. With stage striking and counterpicks, it should be a doable match. If you're playing for glory on FD, it's much tougher. Just remember that his options are quick, but not varied. Good prediction skills will enable you to win.

Probably 60:40 Mac overall.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I don't like using her projectiles against mac unless it pushes him off the stage. Other then that I wait to punish him.

 

[M]

I feel the Mac matchup is really only doable if he puts himself in enough shieldgrab scenarios. And hope he's not smart enough to respect dash attack as it seems to win trades with most of his non armored normals.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I really think little mac is a match that you have to just wait for your moments unless he does forward smash which pushes you too far away to grab him.

if anyone would like to do 1v1s later I know how to play little mac and greninja decently. My little mac is a bit different since I like to use his dtilt a lot.

 

[Maraphy]

It may be annoying for the other player, but I encourage playing super defensively and constantly baiting while facing little mac; Shield grab everything he does and don't be aggressive since it's easy for him to punish you. That's what they get for picking Mac lol

For the next one... I vote for Rosalina, she's so frustrating to deal with...

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

Little Mac is doable, but you have to be on point. Any opportunity you get to edge-guard Little Mac, you want to make the most of it. Just grabbing him out of his landing is good option coverage of him either going for a counter, attacking, or air-dodging trying to land safely on stage. You can actually punish his smashes on shield via dash attack (most consistent punish for Palutena) or (depending on how you're spaced) dash grabbing, but you have a small window of time to do so; you can punish with jab out of shield after Little Mac's ftilt. If you send Little Mac far enough to where his only option to make it back is his side special (Fsmash is the best option to achieve this), Reflect barrier will push him out and keep him from making it back.

Overall, I think this match-up is 60-40 in Little Mac's favor, seeing as Palutena cannot afford to over-commit due to Little Mac having an amazing punish game. Edge-guarding is key for Palutena's success vs. Little Mac.

 

[M]

Gah maintenance happening when I post.

Have many people been using Counter to ...erm.. counter Mac's recovery? Seems the perfect option to cover his awfully predictable recoveries. Celestial Fireworks has no place in a matchup when Mac will obviously spend ridiculous amounts of time grounded. Lightweight while still a decent option, feels a lot less useful seeing as Mac can still punish just about everything you throw at him head on, and chances are you'll be spending a lot more time hiding in your shield anyway.

 

[Sudai]

Try taking Rocket Jump against LittleMac and other rush down characters. It's an awesome OoS option against pressure and will kill around 110%. It hurts your recovery so I recommend switching either Lightweight or Super speed in to help. I personally run both against rush down so I have more movement and recovery options.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Playing against Greninja as a Palutena main = pick your secondary.

That match up is really tough. Greninja is too quick. His moves are quicker that Palutena's. He has a lot of range and can punish her laggy moves easily even if he gets hit by them. Grab combos don't work for long. His d-air is laggy but quick enough to get you before you can react properly. If it hits shield its totally safe since he'll still jump. Even jumping n-airs won't hit after a shield drop. Really got to camp this match up imo. Definitely in Greninja's favor.

Little mac. You just play against little mac. Try to gimp him. Little mac has a lot of spam moves. Counter carefully. Look out for his counter when he's being juggled. Grab combos are excellent. Its a sorta even but more in Little Mac's favor imo. Stay at the ledge. Don't use Auto-reticle unless you know it will hit him. Like after a get-up. He gets a free approach every time you use it since he can just run and duck the shots.

Little mac is certainly doable. Greninja not so much. Or at least I haven't been able to do well against him.

Greninja and Little Mac roll spammers are difficult to fight with my Palutena. I find that if I pick another character like Dark Pit I can beat them easily.

 

[Fluttershy]

D-throw pushes Gren too far away with proper vectoring as mentioned above (was only able to Nair because of an air dodge timed incorrectly). I noticed that i was B-throwing them more than i was using D-throw. Utilt should beat Gren's Dair if you can predict it correctly. It's easy to dodge SS if you see it coming or you can counter it for a free hit if you have it in your moveset. though you should recognize the range SS has to make things easier. Water Shurikens you might as well shield as they are too quick aside from the charged ones. AR is a bit slow.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Are we including lightweight when we say combos aren't working or are we running a different down special for the matchup here?

 

[Glaciacott]

OH sweet lord the site works again! For some reason I've been seeing crashboards for like two days now @_@

In any case, time to move on. It seems to many the conversation of Little Mac just leads to an overall conversation of how viable palutena is, and the consensus for the most part is that, eh, we can manage.
Greninja meanwhile remains clouded for the most part in mystery as it seems not many have encountered this match-up. Those that have though respect his air game, speed and options. Palutena can deal with it, but with the utmost care and strategy.

But now we move on!
First up is the first champ of Smash 4, the first character to take the crown in a tournament and now a favorite of many. She not only brings a new found speed and great jump skills, but also stylish boots and even skimpier clothing options (not the skimpiest though *cough*Shulk*cough*)
How does default Palutena fare against her? What moves are our best arsenal against this (probably) high-tier threat?
Time to discuss Zero Suit Samus!

Second is ... well um, that's not the mirror of truth, is it? Well, seems like the goddess is about to face herself as it's time to discuss the Palutena ditto.
How can Palutena deal with herself? And what are the best moves to counter her while she's using certain moves to counter herself ... oh god, this will be hairy.
Time to discuss the ditto versus Palutena!

Also this week there's the conquest challenge of dress for success, with Peach and Zelda being the competition of Palutena in the global online battlefield. So let's talk about those next.
Next week: Peach and Zelda

 

[Pirunner]

For zero suit samus, I find it best to jab, grab, and roll. Don't get to roll happy, because zero can punish it effortlessly, but you can't stay in range of zero for too long. Watching Aerolink's gameplay in the last posted shockwave, I also noticed he was smartly using short hops to stay out of the way of her grab/horizontal whip and punish with aerials. That was some smart gameplay there. Jab is a good choice to, because it clanks with both her whip AND her stun gun shot. A problem I found with playing zero is that its not usually a good option to reflect her tazer shot, because you are so close and the reflect animation is so long you might as well have let yourself get hit. The exception is if she tries to charge her shot, then its a good idea to reflect. After that, her best mid-range option is her grab, and as with all tether grabs its so unsafe if it misses they always think twice about throwing it out there.

My biggest problem with zero suit is how hard it is to meet her with aerials. in the air, most of zero's options beat out yours if you take her on from the sides. its a different story from underneath. Yet I can't shake the feeling that a cognizant zero suit can maneuver effortlessly and acrobatically through the air, where we seem to float and get juggled. So our air game seems hampered, but is still one of our best sides. What really sucks is that we can't do anything up close. With the exception of jab and jab followups, we are at a loss. Zero can run circles around us in the rime it takes a tilt's animation to stop, then charge a forward smash. Her attacks come up fast, and are just long enough to prevent grabbing out of shield. We can't wall zero out with auto reticle, because she is just too fast. We can, however, use it as a punish. I find many Zero Suits have a tendency to throw out attacks sometimes thinking we will run into it, and our defensive play-style+ auto-reticle means we teach them real quick not to do that. not that that matters at a competitive level, where people wont do that anyway.

All together, I think zero suit is even worse then little mac, because her mid range pressure forces us to shield or jab on the defensive, and short of some godlike short-hop maneuvering I saw Aerolink doing, I think we won't get in as often as we like. That said, our grab and punish game keeps this at about 70:30 Zero suit.

As for ditos, well it really comes down to who lands what the fastest. From afar, Auto-reticle is pretty safe because palutena is JUST a bit to tall to really re-actively dash into us. Don't worry about reflect, because it can't send our projectiles back at us and simply leaves us open. DO worry about counter, because everything we do worth countering is telegraphed and slow enough that a counter can be preformed almost re-actively, save for aerials. When you hear WARP when your opponent is in the air above you, down smash. It might not hit, but the landing lag/animation on warp is such that if down smash didn't hit, then you are safe. I recommend down smash because many palutena's have a bad habit of warping directly into the ground next to where an opponent is to avoid the usual landing lag from this recovery move, and expecting you to jump up and use more aireals. It's conditioned into us because we don't like getting juggled and warping to the other side of the stage leaves us open to dash attacks, which set us up for more juggles. This is especially effective if you have spent the game conditioning your opponent to expect aerial follow ups. Other bad habits palutena mains have include think we can punish rolls with down smash (its too slow), Predictable Aerials (neutral air is especially lacking from some players if fought), and predictable rolls (which can be punished with our tilts, which have the disadvantage of being slow and the advantage of hit-boxes out there for days).

Over all I say Dittos are 50-50 in our favor because... dittos, c'mon.

 

[Fluttershy]

Haven't fought that many ZSS' online (at least that i have recorded)
Uair and Utilt Beats ZSS' Dair. I think Jab can cancel her Forward B but i'd need to recheck if it does.. AR beats neutral B (uncharged) but not sure if it does fully charged.

For

AR Cancels AR lol. I don't think the Mind trick games with rolls are going to work unless you don't pay attention to the opponent since you'll know what each roll looks like already. pretty much everything you have they will also have unless you have different specials.. You know all of her weaknesses and how to take advantage of them..

I'll be able to help more next week with Zelda

 

[M]

I just played a good number of Palutena ditto's with Aerodrome. It was all you can eat Jab > Grab setups.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Playing against Greninja as a Palutena main = pick your secondary.

That match up is really tough. Greninja is too quick. His moves are quicker that Palutena's. He has a lot of range and can punish her laggy moves easily even if he gets hit by them. Grab combos don't work for long. His d-air is laggy but quick enough to get you before you can react properly. If it hits shield its totally safe since he'll still jump. Even jumping n-airs won't hit after a shield drop. Really got to camp this match up imo. Definitely in Greninja's favor.

Little mac. You just play against little mac. Try to gimp him. Little mac has a lot of spam moves. Counter carefully. Look out for his counter when he's being juggled. Grab combos are excellent. Its a sorta even but more in Little Mac's favor imo. Stay at the ledge. Don't use Auto-reticle unless you know it will hit him. Like after a get-up. He gets a free approach every time you use it since he can just run and duck the shots.

Little mac is certainly doable. Greninja not so much. Or at least I haven't been able to do well against him.

Greninja and Little Mac roll spammers are difficult to fight with my Palutena. I find that if I pick another character like Dark Pit I can beat them easily.

I actually feel that vs Greninja isn't very bad, if at all. I don't have much trouble facing Greninjas. I played vs Bajisci the other day and he's way better than me but I managed to get him on his last stock at 134%. Unfortunately I was so proud of myself I forgot to save the replay, hah. You might be even better than me but I have a couple replays vs a pretty good Greninja I met in For Glory and he seemed to have a lot of trouble approaching me, if anyone's interested in looking em over or analyzing them.

 

[YAYCONFORMITY]

I main ZSS and second Palutena. From Palutena's perspective, I don't think the match is too bad. Palutena has options that can shut down a lot of Zamus' more common strategies. Paralyzer is slow enough to reflect on reaction. Flip kick is unsafe at most spacing due to Usmash. Teleport and counter can limit her juggle game. This limits what Zamus can do and forces some players to approach the matchup in a different way.

ZSS is like Palutena in that she's reliant on her throw to gain momentum and begin applying pressure. So, expect a lot of grab attempts. If you read a dash grab attempt, your best options are generally to short hop towards her (and then figure out what to do based on what she does) roll towards her, or spot dodge. Rolling away is generally a bad idea because of the range on her grab, the potential for a dash attack that will hit you, and the fact that it will make it hard to punish her even if the grab whiffs.

As in many matchups, your jab is going to be useful. Ftilt may also be good to limit Zamus from approaching via nair of fair.

From your end, ZSS is pretty vulnerable from below. Aside from Dair and trying to flip away, her options are limited from that position. Uair is hard for her to deal with, but you may want to saver it for KOing. Nair, Fair, and Bair are useful though.

Auto reticule is ok in this match, but not great. ZSS has a tall hitbox, and autoreticule can often stuff a dash grab attempt. Autoreticule will also beat out her paralyzer.

There are two problems with this matchup. Firstly, if Zamus gets in close/midrange, she can pressure well. A lot of her moves are fairly safe, and only your jab and grab can compete with the speed on her jab and tilts. Secondly, KOing Zamus is going to be a problem as it usually is. A ZSS playing correctly will be very hard to punish. Hitting with D or Fsmash is going to be tough. Usmash is a good option if fresh, and you have Uair. Otherwise, Zamus is going to hang around for a while and take off a big chunk of life while you struggle to KO her.

Overall, I'd say the match is 60-40 ZSS against base Palutena. ZSS is a more versatile character overall, but she doesn't have any one option that you don't have a good response to. A good read or two and an earlyish KO with a smash is all you really need to win this one.

 

[Admiral Pit]

I really do want to help with the Palutena ditto since I voted for it, but I feel kinda obsolete til I get more practice and data in besides the AeroLink one from a week or 2 ago, so I may have to ask that the ditto discussion stays up, not to mention we do need more info. As an alternative, we can push this one back for another week.
As far as I see it atm, it's all about patience, predicting, and capitalizing on your opponent's openings and mistakes, or try to manipulate them into making mistakes. I hope I can gather more data soon and discuss it better. And to think that's it, I definitely need more data with customs involved.

 

[CrimsonMoonKing]

Hello Paluteneans! I'm maining her since lunch, but I'm having lot of trouble with fast smash characters, no speedy characters per se, but character that can punish REALLY fast and hard, like Little Mac, Pit, Dark Pit etc.

Palutena has a lot of openings and watching good Palutena players play, I've encountered that they DON'T smash often to get the kill, they rather kill with Uair or a Back Throw, so what do you thing guys? Smash spamming with Palutena can get horrible outcomes against her.

I think that we as Palutena players must have a second main who can cover up Palutena's weekness or worst matchups, for example, I use Link against a speedy Little Mac, and I spam everything to keep him in control, and play a turtle game, b/c this game is a lot more defensive I think, the more you wanna combo and pursue your opponent, the more you can get hit.

So, what do you think guys?? any comments on this?

 

[YAYCONFORMITY]

Hello Paluteneans! I'm maining her since lunch, but I'm having lot of trouble with fast smash characters, no speedy characters per se, but character that can punish REALLY fast and hard, like Little Mac, Pit, Dark Pit etc.

Palutena has a lot of openings and watching good Palutena players play, I've encountered that they DON'T smash often to get the kill, they rather kill with Uair or a Back Throw, so what do you thing guys? Smash spamming with Palutena can get horrible outcomes against her.

I think that we as Palutena players must have a second main who can cover up Palutena's weekness or worst matchups, for example, I use Link against a speedy Little Mac, and I spam everything to keep him in control, and play a turtle game, b/c this game is a lot more defensive I think, the more you wanna combo and pursue your opponent, the more you can get hit.

So, what do you think guys?? any comments on this?

You shouldn't be spamming smashes as Palutena (or anyone really), but she doesn't have many other kill options. Fresh Uair kills at about 120 which is decent. Fresh Bair kills at about 150. Bthrow won't kill till close to 200.

Trying to get opponents to 150+ for every kill is not a winning strategy, so Palutena is going to need to find a way to score a couple of kills with her smashes per match if she's going to compete.

 

[CrimsonMoonKing]

I throw some smashes here and there, specially the Up smash during edge guarding, this really generates pressure into the opponent, I try not to spam smashes, is the difference between life and death with this character.

I tend to do the grab combo, and then catch them with a up or forward smash, again, depends on the situation and the reading of the opponent, but hey thanks for all those advises! xD

 

[kamus_aran]

How about Diddy Kong everyone?

 

[JHamron]

^ What he said, but replacing Lucina with Jigglypuff.

What he said, but with Ness.