I want Mario to be a good character

[A2ZOMG]

And in order for that to happen, we first all have to acknowledge he is weaker than he has ever been.

Nintendo is able to patch this game, and better communication among ourselves about what we expect from Mario will only increase our chances that Nintendo will get good feedback for updating Mario if they decide to. They have succeeded in making Link not a complete joke and they are on the way to giving Mewtwo back to the community. We should be optimistic that Mario can also get the treatment he deserves.

Without a complete move set overhaul, Mario will never be a character with good range on most moves. That is fine by me. That was never how he was designed in his own series. I am however going to be disappointed about not getting a ground pound or a stomping move (like Greninja or ZSS...who don't even do that in their own games).

However what does identify Mario in Smash is that he is supposed to be an agile and versatile character who needs to earn his KOs. This is a playstyle that can be perfectly valid. Look at Sheik in this game.

Mario already has many tradeoffs as someone who has poor range and difficult KO options. Would it really be so terrible to give Mario frame tight combos to 50% on everyone? This could be accomplished purely through superior frame data. 5 frames off Utilt, 3 frames off Dtilt and Dair landing lag, 7 frames off Fair landing. Mario doesn't get too many followups beyond 60% anyway. I would be fine with working for my KOS as long as building damage was safer. This still leaves Mario vulnerable to trades, so it isn't unfair. And it makes Mario unique, emphasizing safer close range pressure.

I want Mario to be balanced, not stupidly hard to play and learn, and rewarding in a way that we can all respect. So Mario mains, please let us all discuss what can make him a good character, either now or later.

ITT: Discuss suggestions to Nintendo or metagame ideas. I will be back with tricks to level up our games as I think of anything.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Reserved space

 

[XxBHunterxX]

At the very least mario needs a grab as a kill move, ness has very decent options when it comes to kills but his back throw is ridiculously op because it kills at a low percent while Mario's kills at 160 on a light weight characters and not to mention ness has good set ups for his grabs

 

[A2ZOMG]

B-throw KOing about 10-15% earlier, I wouldn't particularly disagree with on Mario. To put some perspective on Ness however, it's worth keeping in mind though that Ness KINDA needs his B-throw to be strong because his ground tools and mobility in general aren't very strong, and because his ability to chase in general is on the weak side outside of PKT harass. Ness without significant grab threat wouldn't demand nearly the same amount of respect for his horizontal spacing game, and more people would just rush him down otherwise.

I don't believe Mario's throws though actually need many changes. His throws are fine for what they do, but sometimes I just feel that Mario himself really just needs better moves to follow up with from throws.

I believe Mario's F-throw and U-throw as they currently are now are in fact underrated throws that still have good followups, but superior damage to D-throw. Things I haven't had the resources to test include potential followups like U-throw -> U-smash/D-air. If either of those work, it gives Mario access to more reliable low percent combos that actually can exceed 20 damage. I've seen F-throw -> DA work in a video from @Fire! and I am willing to be that there may be more possible from F-throw as well.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

B-throw KOing about 10-15% earlier, I wouldn't particularly disagree with on Mario. To put some perspective on Ness however, it's worth keeping in mind though that Ness KINDA needs his B-throw to be strong because his ground tools and mobility in general aren't very strong, and because his ability to chase in general is on the weak side outside of PKT harass. Ness without significant grab threat wouldn't demand nearly the same amount of respect for his horizontal spacing game, and more people would just rush him down otherwise.

I don't believe Mario's throws though actually need many changes. His throws are fine for what they do, but sometimes I just feel that Mario himself really just needs better moves to follow up with from throws.

I believe Mario's F-throw and U-throw as they currently are now are in fact underrated throws that still have good followups, but superior damage to D-throw. Things I haven't had the resources to test include potential followups like U-throw -> U-smash/D-air. If either of those work, it gives Mario access to more reliable low percent combos that actually can exceed 20 damage. I've seen F-throw -> DA work in a video from @Fire! and I am willing to be that there may be more possible from F-throw as well.

My point is he doesn't have any reliable kill moves, so it's fine for him to have combos but if he can't kill there's no point. I think a great back throw would make him more of a threat

 

[A2ZOMG]

My point is he doesn't have any reliable kill moves, so it's fine for him to have combos but if he can't kill there's no point. I think a great back throw would make him more of a threat

Sheik and Pikachu don't have super reliable KO moves, but they're top characters in this game. Lacking a reliable KO move isn't necessarily unworkable, and I would rather not have Mario homogenized extensively. Not saying he can't use some SLIGHT knockback boosts on a few specific moves, but I believe the better approach to buffing Mario should be about reliable damage output.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

While pikachu has the exact same problem as Mario does, shiek makes up for it with her speed. Mario does have mostly reliable damage output, so I don't think purely making his combos safer changes the problem that he has, you need an extremely hard read to kill someone and that becomes harder when your opponent plays keep away and the only moves that'll hit are his moves used to combo with at lower percents. Lucario is Mario's worst nightmare because he takes the one thing that Mario's good at and uses against him, and since Mario can't kill he only makes him stronger. A good back throw is really the only thing he needs or a stronger Bair

 

[Road Death Wheel]

i dunno i think mario better than doc and i see loads of marios making it to finals in tournaments but those guys can donsome serious reads though. and the gimp with fludd so that might be worth noting.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Spoiler: Mario's Estimated Damage Output

Jab: 8% total (2.5% - 1.5% - 4%)
Ftilt: 7%
Utilt: ~6.3%
Dtilt: 7% close, 5% far
Fsmash: 14% to 19.572% close, 17% to 23.766% far
Usmash: 14% to 19.572%
Dsmash: 10% to 14% front hit (~13.98% actual value), 12% to 16.776% back hit
Dash Attack: 8% sweet, 6% sour
Nair: 8% sweet, 5% sour
Fair: 14% sweet, 12% sour
Uair: 7%
Dair: 1%x5 multihit, 5% final hit (10% total). 2% additional hitbox when landing.
Bair: 10.5%
Pummel: ~3.226
Fthrow: 8%
Uthrow: 7%
Dthrow: 5%
Bthrow: 11%
---
Tilt damage output: 6.325%
Smash damage output: 13.4% uncharged (18.7332%-18.7372% max charge)
Aerial damage output:~ 8.7857%
Throw damage output: 7.75%
Total damage output: ~8.53702025% per hit. (~8.32295714% to ~8.7510833%)

Final Result:~8.5% per hit, rounded down. 12 hits to go past 100% damage (102%).
---
Not included:
Fireball: 5% close, 4% far
Cape: 7%
Super Jump Punch: 5%, 1%x4, 3%. (12% total)
FLUDD: 0%

Basically, Mario needs to get approximately at least 12 reads/hits on his opponent to deal over 100% damage on average. This does not include special moves, gimps, favorable situations to use certain moves, combos, stale moves, charged Smash attacks, inconsistent multi-hit moves (Dair), Mario's ability to actually KO the opponent, and etc. Rather, this is purely just his average damage output based upon his normal moves.

In short, 12 reads/hits to put the opponent within KO/dangerous percents.

If you include Fireball, Mario's other main way of dealing damage, using that move fresh would usually do 4% damage. 1/25th the way of putting the opponent to or over 100%. So it is half as valuable (damage output-wise) as using a normal move.

Basic Attacks: 1/12 to deal optimal damage.
Fireballs: 1/25 to deal optimal damage.

Basically, this is what we can gather from this data, in regards to making Mario's damage output more efficient:

1) Fireballs are buffed. Either by reducing endlag, raising damage, or a combination of smaller buffs. Raising the percent of far Fireballs by 1% (5% instead of 4%), for example, would increase the damage output of the move from 1/25 to 1/20. This makes the value of the move, in comparison to his basic attacks, look like this:

Basic Attacks: 1/12 to deal optimal damage. 1/3rd potency in comparison to fireballs.
Current Fireballs: 1/25 to deal optimal damage. Less than a half, or less than 1/6th potency in comparison to basic attacks.
Buffed Fireballs: 1/20 to deal optimal damage. 1/5th potency in comparison to basic attacks.

It may not look like much, but even the smallest of damage increases can really add up over time. Which is especially valuable in projectiles to help you zone opponents out from a safe distance.

To put this in a simpler perspective: Mario's Fireballs will essentially become like WFT's uncharged Sun Salutation projectiles. Of the two, which of them would you like better? (Not including fully charged Sun Salutation).


2) More damage on basic attacks.

Same concept as the Fireballs, but now with Mario's standard moveset. Wouldn't it be nice if Mario's damage output was averaged out to 10% per hit? Thereby lowering the threshold of dealing optimal damage to the opponent by 20%, or down to 1/10? I would say yes. Now let's look at a comparison:

Current Basic Attacks: 1/12 to deal optimal damage.
Current Fireballs: 1/25 to deal optimal damage.

Buffed Basic Attacks: 1/10 to deal optimal damage. A 20% increase in damage output.
Buffed Fireballs: 1/20 to deal optimal damage. A 20% increase in damage output.

Doesn't that look much nicer than how it originally was?


3) Reduced startup/endlag on basic attacks, specifically combo moves. (Utilt/Dtilt/etc)

This will not only make these moves safer to use, but also dramatically increase the potency of his combos. Thus further removing the amount of reads, not hits, Mario has to deal to the opponent to win a match.


Basically:
- Better fireballs
- Slightly more damage for his basic attacks, especially aerials
- Slightly less lag on his moves, especially combo-oriented moves like Dtilt and Utilt

This is all Mario really needs in order to be a really good character, in my opinion. Or at least, a very solid character, like he should be.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You've heard me argue this before, but Explosive Jump Punch as things are right now is key to reducing the number of reads Mario needs to make in order to get people to KO damage thresholds. Sacrificing recovery on a character who already has a relatively short recovery, I agree it sounds pretty bad. But I want to also explain that in the little tournament experience I DO have, I've legitimately won some close games by using Cape Stalling correctly. Games that I wouldn't have won if I didn't have the option of out playing people and keeping people guessing about which way I will land or recover, and when exactly I will do so. I believe when we get to the really competitively clutch moments, Gust Cape will pull its weight more than enough for Mario's survivability, and that the lost distance will be more or less an afterthought.

The short distance on Mario's recovery...provided you are VIing well, it more just hurts your ability to edgeguard super aggressively rather than hurting your survivability. But on a character like Mario who has relatively low knockback aerials for the most part, that kind of tradeoff with Explosive Jump Punch is one I would readily make for more reliable on-stage presence. I will state that this probably screws you over in two specific matchups, and those are Ness and Jigglypuff, characters who I'm pretty certain you have to fight in the air and threaten with edgeguards to kill consistently, and Explosive Jump Punch is for the most part too risky to rely on as a KO move against them.

Either way, for Mario to compete with other high/top tiers on more even footing, we do deserve frame data buffs at least for the sake of making Mario's close range pressure harder to punish. And with extra combos off tilts, we would be less reliant on Explosive Jump Punch as being a primary source of damage, which would overall increase the flexibility of Mario's custom options.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

You've heard me argue this before, but Explosive Jump Punch as things are right now is key to reducing the number of reads Mario needs to make in order to get people to KO damage thresholds. Sacrificing recovery on a character who already has a relatively short recovery, I agree it sounds pretty bad. But I want to also explain that in the little tournament experience I DO have, I've legitimately won some close games by using Cape Stalling correctly. Games that I wouldn't have won if I didn't have the option of out playing people and keeping people guessing about which way I will land or recover, and when exactly I will do so. I believe when we get to the really competitively clutch moments, Gust Cape will pull its weight more than enough for Mario's survivability, and that the lost distance will be more or less an afterthought.

The short distance on Mario's recovery...provided you are VIing well, it more just hurts your ability to edgeguard super aggressively rather than hurting your survivability. But on a character like Mario who has relatively low knockback aerials for the most part, that kind of tradeoff with Explosive Jump Punch is one I would readily make for more reliable on-stage presence. I will state that this probably screws you over in two specific matchups, and those are Ness and Jigglypuff, characters who I'm pretty certain you have to fight in the air and threaten with edgeguards to kill consistently, and Explosive Jump Punch is for the most part too risky to rely on as a KO move against them.

Either way, for Mario to compete with other high/top tiers on more even footing, we do deserve frame data buffs at least for the sake of making Mario's close range pressure harder to punish. And with extra combos off tilts, we would be less reliant on Explosive Jump Punch as being a primary source of damage, which would overall increase the flexibility of Mario's custom options.

Okay, I do agree he does need safer options for applying pressure up close that's for sure, but I think that only solves part of his problem because lets say you do get a nice amount of percent off of your opponent they're at 120%, how do you take them out? Mario's moves that actually kill are slow and not many characters are easly gimped by him either so his options in most situations are limited. If he had a guaranteed kill like he did in project m with his fair, that would be great because all the damage he would build up would lead to something more

 

[A2ZOMG]

Okay, I do agree he does need safer options for applying pressure up close that's for sure, but I think that only solves part of his problem because lets say you do get a nice amount of percent off of your opponent they're at 120%, how do you take them out? Mario's moves that actually kill are slow and not many characters are easly gimped by him either so his options in most situations are limited. If he had a guaranteed kill like he did in project m with his fair, that would be great because all the damage he would build up would lead to something more

Mario's D-smash and U-smash are not extremely hard to land for KOs at 120% as punishes or during some generic land trap situations. And while Mario's F-smash is a bit slow, it can kill most characters around 90% and it has a large amount of leanback which lets you outplay characters that have more range than you. In my opinion, actually scoring the KO as Mario isn't hugely problematic if you play smart and have good reactions, and it's a part of his playstyle that I think is fundamentally fine and worth preserving mostly as is. Now, this isn't to say that I disagree that Mario could use small buffs on say, B-throw. B-throw KOing about 10-15% earlier would make me pretty happy. If they implented just that along with making Mario's close up pressure more reliable, I'd feel pretty good about Mario's KO options.

Alternatively they could give him back Jab cancel confirms. Probably among all the characters that should and shouldn't be getting Jab cancels, Mario is a character who really doesn't break the game with Jab cancels.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Okay, this might sound over the top but I'm about to cite what I found to be excellent in Mario from a little mod called "SD Remix" for Melee.
- Fair comes out faster, has no sourspot (like in Melee).

If you watch SD Remix play (if there's any Mario footage) his Fair comes out reliably fast in that and it's not really broken or anything. I don't know if this would vastly improve Mario's options but it would give him a KO aerial that isn't linear, and Mario's game already has a lot of offstage setups so I think this would compliment it.

Other ideas include
- Cut Utilt's endframes by about 3-4, Utilt combos = real even if they're pretty silly in that case
- FSmash should come out faster, maybe only slightly slower than Melee. This would turn it from a decent KO move to a very respectable one as Smash 4 actually increased its range and made even the sourspot fairly effective. Combine this with pivot options and you'd have fantastic coverage.

I think if they did these three things, I'm pretty sure Mario would be excellent. He's really not far from being a solid contender and he's still very usable as is with a bit of work, but I wouldn't mind seeing these things implemented in either an update or the next game. I think he's statistically worse than any other version so far, but he'll fare better here overall than he did in Brawl purely through better game design.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

You've heard me argue this before, but Explosive Jump Punch as things are right now is key to reducing the number of reads Mario needs to make in order to get people to KO damage thresholds.

Either way, for Mario to compete with other high/top tiers on more even footing, we do deserve frame data buffs at least for the sake of making Mario's close range pressure harder to punish. And with extra combos off tilts, we would be less reliant on Explosive Jump Punch as being a primary source of damage, which would overall increase the flexibility of Mario's custom options.

Yeah, I agree. As it stands right now, EJP and Gust Cape are absolutely pivotal in making Mario a threat in Smash 4. Without them, he is sorely lacking in several key areas. Fast Fireball definitely helps too, though I can imagine certain situations in which Mario would prefer his standard Fireball.

What sucks though is that because we have to rely on EJP, we are forced to limit our other options. In the grand scheme of things, these are necessary sacrifices to make in order to make Mario better, though I wish that we didn't have to do to make him stand more of a chance against the rest of the cast. :/

And yeah. Less lag off of tilts is an absolute must. Combos are what supposed to define Mario as a character, and as it stands, that bucket of water has a leak in it. He still can combo somewhat, just not reliably so. And that shouldn't really be the case considering that's how most people see Mario competitively.

Okay, this might sound over the top but I'm about to cite what I found to be excellent in Mario from a little mod called "SD Remix" for Melee.
- Fair comes out faster, has no sourspot (like in Melee).

If you watch SD Remix play (if there's any Mario footage) his Fair comes out reliably fast in that and it's not really broken or anything. I don't know if this would vastly improve Mario's options but it would give him a KO aerial that isn't linear, and Mario's game already has a lot of offstage setups so I think this would compliment it.

Other ideas include
- Cut Utilt's endframes by about 3-4, Utilt combos = real even if they're pretty silly in that case
- FSmash should come out faster, maybe only slightly slower than Melee. This would turn it from a decent KO move to a very respectable one as Smash 4 actually increased its range and made even the sourspot fairly effective. Combine this with pivot options and you'd have fantastic coverage.

I think if they did these three things, I'm pretty sure Mario would be excellent.

I would like all of these buffs. Fair and Fsmash are both solid moves, though they are slightly held back by either the sourspot (Fair) or a small lack of speed (Fsmash). So these would be great changes.

Also this is a change I want for almost every Smash 4 character in general, but I wish that Mario had a lower short hop in this game to help the potency of his aerials against grounded opponents. Mario's landing lag is actually one of the lowest in the game collectively, so it would further help that quality of his stand out more. It would also make Uair/Dair combos more efficient, too. I have no idea why they had to make shorthops in this game so high, on average.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Mario's jump height is fine and the reason I say this is cause Dr. Mario exists. If Doc wasn't here I'd be down for a better short hop since Doc stole Mario's old SH and jump height (or so it seems.) And yeah I'd love these buffs too, as satisfied as I am that Mario feels actually usable in this game cause he just blew in Brawl in terms of game feel and the way the game was designed made his existence feel invalidated, but here I feel like he has a fighting chance, and if those buffs ever do happen he'd shoot up pretty high.

I attribute my thoughts to Mario being ok if underwhelming to his MU spread which is all roughly even and he really only majorly loses in a few of them. Reminds me of Dictator in ST whose matchups are notorious for being nothing short of 6-4, 4-6, or 5-5 in most cases (I believe 9 of the 16 MUs he has are 6-4 against him, and he has one 7-3 against him, and he still fares well). I feel like while this isn't EXACTLY my ideal Mario (kinda wish he was dead center mid) I feel like this will make people who take Mario to tournaments actually able to win! I guess one good thing I could say is that his matchups are not incredibly polarizing in this regard.

 

[Shog]

Hmm, sorry for not bringing up that much in this discussion, at you obviously make really good points. But did you guys try out Smooth Lander + "balancing" equipments on Mario(so he has pretty much +1 +0 +0 stats)?
Maybe this makes him more rewarding for you folks. That, and more launching power equipment.

My point is: You can theory here, but with EQ you could technically test out what would benefit Mario really well.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Only Smooth Landers have the potential to be even close to legal and that's side event at best, but since they replicate the effects of L-Cancel that would turn Mario's Fair into something special but I don't know how much else it would do. Mario's aerials don't really suffer a lag problem overall.

 

[kesterstudios]

And in order for that to happen, we first all have to acknowledge he is weaker than he has ever been.

Nintendo is able to patch this game, and better communication among ourselves about what we expect from Mario will only increase our chances that Nintendo will get good feedback for updating Mario if they decide to. They have succeeded in making Link not a complete joke and they are on the way to giving Mewtwo back to the community. We should be optimistic that Mario can also get the treatment he deserves.

Without a complete move set overhaul, Mario will never be a character with good range on most moves. That is fine by me. That was never how he was designed in his own series. I am however going to be disappointed about not getting a ground pound or a stomping move (like Greninja or ZSS...who don't even do that in their own games).

However what does identify Mario in Smash is that he is supposed to be an agile and versatile character who needs to earn his KOs. This is a playstyle that can be perfectly valid. Look at Sheik in this game.

Mario already has many tradeoffs as someone who has poor range and difficult KO options. Would it really be so terrible to give Mario frame tight combos to 50% on everyone? This could be accomplished purely through superior frame data. 5 frames off Utilt, 3 frames off Dtilt and Dair landing lag, 7 frames off Fair landing. Mario doesn't get too many followups beyond 60% anyway. I would be fine with working for my KOS as long as building damage was safer. This still leaves Mario vulnerable to trades, so it isn't unfair. And it makes Mario unique, emphasizing safer close range pressure.

I want Mario to be balanced, not stupidly hard to play and learn, and rewarding in a way that we can all respect. So Mario mains, please let us all discuss what can make him a good character, either now or later.

ITT: Discuss suggestions to Nintendo or metagame ideas. I will be back with tricks to level up our games as I think of anything.

im sorry but I really don't see how Mario is the weakest hes ever been. I think Mario is the best hes ever been. have you seen what people have been doing with Mario in smash 4? Mario is even one of my mains now because hes actually good unlike brawl Mario. It would be nice if Mario got buffs, but right now I really don't see how Mario is a bad character

 

[A2ZOMG]

im sorry but I really don't see how Mario is the weakest hes ever been. I think Mario is the best hes ever been. have you seen what people have been doing with Mario in smash 4? Mario is even one of my mains now because hes actually good unlike brawl Mario. It would be nice if Mario got buffs, but right now I really don't see how Mario is a bad character

He has all the same weaknesses he had from Brawl (very bad negative state, poor midrange, inconsistent combos), and they managed to nerf the majority of his moves. He no longer has Jab cancels, has to make more reads for less damage, actually does worse in the negative state overall in this game because Cape Stalling is worse, and he still has a lot of trouble killing, especially since none of his aerials are really good for killing.

Most of Mario's matchups are realistically uphill to some extent. The only thing that got better is most of the cast to some extent got nerfed anyway, so there's fewer strict unwinnables for him.

That and he has good custom moves.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

lol thread revive.

 

[kesterstudios]

He has all the same weaknesses he had from Brawl (very bad negative state, poor midrange, inconsistent combos), and they managed to nerf the majority of his moves. He no longer has Jab cancels, has to make more reads for less damage, actually does worse in the negative state overall in this game because Cape Stalling is worse, and he still has a lot of trouble killing, especially since none of his aerials are really good for killing.

Most of Mario's matchups are realistically uphill to some extent. The only thing that got better is most of the cast to some extent got nerfed anyway, so there's fewer strict unwinnables for him.

That and he has good custom moves.

if Mario is worse in smash 4, then why do I see him in tournaments unlike brawl? the same applies to fox in smash 4 who was technically nerfed from brawl, but hes a better character. from what i played Mario seems to be a quicker character in smash 4 and I don't have issues KOing with him.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

if Mario is worse in smash 4, then why do I see him in tournaments unlike brawl? the same applies to fox in smash 4 who was technically nerfed from brawl, but hes a better character. from what i played Mario seems to be a quicker character in smash 4 and I don't have issues KOing with him.

ur fighting an adamant brick wall dude dont do it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

if Mario is worse in smash 4, then why do I see him in tournaments unlike brawl? the same applies to fox in smash 4 who was technically nerfed from brawl, but hes a better character. from what i played Mario seems to be a quicker character in smash 4 and I don't have issues KOing with him.

The game is super balanced. Doesn't mean Mario is better overall. There are more characters that technically beat him in this game, just fewer 7/3s.

It's easy to get KOs with Mario when people just let you U-smash them. I mean, it pretty much wasn't really different from Brawl. U-smash was an amazing punish tool even back then. Realistically however, Mario needs his opponent to make a legitimate mistake to kill them reasonably if they are not extremely light. Or they need to have a very bad recovery that he can easily reach with FLUDD/Cape. Mario's other Smashes are pretty bad and mostly shouldn't be used especially since Mario lost legitimate Jab cancel setups. F-smash is sometimes funny as a hard read in midrange and does kill really early, but no reverse step mechanics hurt a lot. And D-smash is simply terrible in this game.

 

[kesterstudios]

The game is super balanced. Doesn't mean Mario is better overall. There are more characters that technically beat him in this game, just fewer 7/3s.

It's easy to get KOs with Mario when people just let you U-smash them. I mean, it pretty much wasn't really different from Brawl. U-smash was an amazing punish tool even back then. Realistically however, Mario needs his opponent to make a legitimate mistake to kill them reasonably if they are not extremely light. Or they need to have a very bad recovery that he can easily reach with FLUDD/Cape. Mario's other Smashes are pretty bad and mostly shouldn't be used especially since Mario lost legitimate Jab cancel setups. F-smash is sometimes funny as a hard read in midrange and does kill really early, but no reverse step mechanics hurt a lot. And D-smash is simply terrible in this game.

I don't see how f smash and d smash are bad. marios f smash is powerful has more range and his d smash is pretty fast. I guess you and me have different views on mario

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't see how f smash and d smash are bad. marios f smash is powerful has more range and his d smash is pretty fast. I guess you and me have different views on mario

F-smash is slow, and you need to hard read a commitment in order for it to land. Its range is only good if you are able to take advantage of the leanback in midrange.

In every situation you can use D-smash, you can simply choose a different move, and it will be safer, and not really do much less damage, if in fact any less damage. That's why D-smash is terrible. It's not safe on block, and only does 10 damage.

 

[kesterstudios]

f smash isn't that slow, but whatever im done here. Mario is still a good character, but I admit he could probably get a few buffs but nothing major. this conversation is over.
Edit: btw I do agree Mario has some good custom moves, too bad tournaments wont allow them right now -_-

 

[The Master of Mario]

Mario is a different character in Brawl

You should use scalding Fludd to trap enemies who probably will DI towards you and into a Juimp canceled Up-smash because scalding fludd can make them trip. Mario's run speed is less as is his air speed so he's going to have trouble moving around Your goning to have to rely on D-throw->F-smash OOS on characters with slow aerial movement.
You have the fire jump punch which also does 21 damage combined these moves can have you piling on damage even at high percent allowing you to use the high damage on F--smash ane the high knockback of D-air on light characters Upsmash aswell on all but heavy characters as weight is weird but important. Cape got nerfed from melee and hasn't been as good since. scalding Fludd->gust Cape should get KOs. B-air is your goto aeirial due to priority and if set up the controls correctly leads into a slow B-air or fast N-air. Your control configuration is important to keep mario's low lag aerials fast as well as knowing when they end as well as the percents at which they tipper. Punches have more range than D-smash so remember that. U-air is still a bust due to its low priority you have to tipper it like marth or else mario's body can get get hit same thing with d-smash. D-smash has better knockback from behind than in front. D-air's double hit was removed so it has poor damage output and is slower and that means to rack up damage you'll need other moves. Up-air does 7% which is your weakest aerial D-air does 10% B-air does 10% N-air does 8% F-air does most damage for combos. Mario's U-air should be replaced with a KO move it really isn't needed. B-air and N-air are good Up-smash is good F-air is ok D-tilt is bad unless you use fast fireball(D-tilt->Fast Fireball->Punches) F-tilt is bad U-tilt is good. Mario has Good Aerial Defense D-air Below disjointed D-air left right disjointed N-air in front below Fast, B-air Behind below moderate, U-air directly above and tipper weak.So I would use Gust Cape, Scaqlding Fludd, Fast Fireball, and Explosive Jump Punch. Practice your pivot grabs and know your pummels to rack up damage(Especially the standing pivot grab)

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

F-smash is slow, and you need to hard read a commitment in order for it to land. Its range is only good if you are able to take advantage of the leanback in midrange.

In every situation you can use D-smash, you can simply choose a different move, and it will be safer, and not really do much less damage, if in fact any less damage. That's why D-smash is terrible. It's not safe on block, and only does 10 damage.

I'd just like to note that light Nair -> Dsmash is a true combo.

In that scenario literally nothing else will work as well, but otherwise Dsmash is pretty bad outside of needing a really quick, somewhat powerful punish that may sometimes kill. Like powershield punishes or whatnot, whereas Fsmash is too slow and Upsmash has a tendency to whiff in front of you.

 

[SirPulse]

''weaker then he's ever been''.

 

[Rashid]

If this thread wasn't so old, I'd be laughing.

 

[Dirty Duck]

Mario is a beast in this game, I really don't take the time to look into tiny things like damage percentages and hitboxes, I'm not that deep into the Smash void yet, but honestly I feel if they made Mario stronger or drastically changed his moveset, they risk ruining him by making him OP or just less fluid to use.

Mario is a good character, your wish has been fulfilled, now go live the dream.

 

[TriTails]

Dude.

You got a character with one of the best frame data out there, nice combos (Down throw Up-b), high mobility, solid air and ground game, and decent grab game.

He is balanced.

Yeah, I know that, low damage output, bad recovery, and lackuster KO options are problems. But think about it if they actually buff all of them greatly.

He'd busted. Most of the cast hope for a great frame data, high mobility (Luigi wants this so much), and being so solid on both on the ground and in the air (His air game is at least decent I guess)

He is balanced, and is considered high tier already.

And I want that mobility, no, just give Luigi a better aerial mobility that doesn't break his combos.

Mario got some stats that a lot of the cast want.

He is gud enough.

 

[A2ZOMG]

His combos are retardedly percent and character specific. And his ground game is pretty bad honestly.

It's easy to make a character broken by just citing things that they obviously don't have (only reason Ganondorf isn't broken? Poor shieldgrab. Obviously the one buff he should never have). The primary buffs Mario needs are more frame tight combos that are less character specific (D-air and U-tilt are big offenders here. I would be happy with shorter U-tilt strings if they worked on everyone and were frame tight.). Then at the very least his D-smash and U-air should probably do 1% more damage, or if not that, give Mario legitimate frame advantage off his Jab cancel like it did before previously. He doesn't need to be spoon fed his way around weaknesses, but I would prefer the character actually have stuff that works consistently.

It's very hard to believe Mario is high tier when technically...most of the cast beats him unless your name is Ally. When you are a character that has both a mediocre F-air and DA, and generally poor options for dealing with juggles and edgeguards, it's pretty hard to have a lot of good matchups unless your positive state is justifiable, and Mario's positive state at best is inconsistent.

 

[TriTails]

I wish I can believe most of the cast beats Mario. If you are using the word 'technically' then 'technically' most of the cast beat Diddy because his bananas are going to get grabbed every single time.

D-smash isn't exactly a damage racker. It semi-spikes, perfect on nailing some KOs. Oh and also, it's a nice edgeguarding tool.

U-air is pretty strong to me. It hits harder than Luigi's (In knockback). Though, the damage is low, so I agree on some damage buffs.

Unless you are named Luigi, there aren't many true combos for one character. Luigi himself can get a combo string at higher percentages, maybe Sheik too, but that's 2 characters out of 51. And unless you are named (Doctor) Mario or Luigi, I don't see U-tilts string being interrupted.

The only thing that didn't make Ganon broken is his mobility. If he were at least as fast as Mario he'd busted as hell.

I don't see on how his ground game is 'bad'. He has fast attacks, and can also combo (Again, down throw up-b. It's a true combo), and while he does not get as much reward as Luigi when getting in, he has easier time doing so. His F-smash, while it is quite slow, hits real hard. His smashes KO (D-smash doesn't KO opponent upright, it semi-spikes them) very well.

Though, I don't know why you are saying Mario's ground game is bad. Can you tell me how he is lacking in that?

 

[A2ZOMG]

There's several characters that are not explicitly considered great that are clearly uphill matchups for Mario. Marth, Metaknight, Ike, G&W, Falco, and Ganondorf all have significantly better ground games than Mario and get great reward for outspacing him, and most of them also can easily edgeguard Mario by just throwing hitboxes at his recovery. Duck Hunt outcamps Mario in a way that can't really be reflected by Cape and is also way too small for Mario to safely approach from the air. Among good characters, Mario probably goes even against Falcon at best, but doesn't get matchups that are much easier than that.

D-smash is almost never worth the risk given it isn't safe on block (might as well F-tilt or B-air) and honestly doesn't really kill unless you get the back hit for some reason.

Ganondorf's mobility is okay. Even though he runs slowly, he can control a lot of space with DA, Wizkick, and Flame Choke, not to mention his aerials. The real problem Ganondorf runs into is having noticeable blindspots in his OOS game. Especially when Ganondorf is projectile camped and has to deal with something like Sheik's SH aerial pressure, more run/airspeed wouldn't help Ganondorf a whole lot as opposed to having a shieldgrab comparable to other heavy characters. Though this would make him OP generally speaking.

Mario has terrible range on basically all his ground moves, including his Dash Attack. He is not scary to space against on the ground as long as you don't do something he can blatantly forward roll against... Also, D-throw Up-B only does 17%, and is not always safe on hit at lower percents. A lot of the characters I mentioned in this post have throw combos that do more damage than that, and are always safe on hit.

 

[TriTails]

Eh, Ike and MetaKnight seem to be considered great (Don't tell me you can do Up-airs + Up-b for free KOs like MK can, and Ike's attacks has a lot of range and power that it's not even funny). And Mario can outspeeds them quite easily. Mario's lack of range is made up by his great mobility (This is why someone like Falco look like he has pencil hitboxes, his mobility sucks, even though his attacks generally has nice range), and he can usually get in and start his punishing when he sees his opportunity. Yeah sure, they can outspace him due to Mario's range problems, but Mario's mobility along with his frame data lets him to dodge and hit them quickly. Sure, not all of them, but generally, Mario already has great speed to, well, outspeed his opponents. Oh and edgeguarding? Maybe try to Cape? Not sure what to do if the hitboxes are disjointed though.

Eh, I don't recall smash attacks being safe on shield. Almost every (If not straight every) smash attacks are unsafe on block, especially powershield. However, Marios D-smash can punish rolls quite easily (Dat speed), and still, the hitbox oddly streches out to below Mario, making it can actually hit foes hanging (Or near) the ledge. Trust me, I have recovered low only to get kicked in the face from Mario's D-smash BEFORE I can grab the ledge.

Er. What is DA? Dash attack?

Is Ganon's grab range that short? I also don't recall him having a good grab game. I mean, yeah, you grabbed an opponent, but you don't get much reward for doing so (Aside from stopping your opponents from doing their shenanigans). Thing is, his approach options are rather poor (Oh man, just like Luigi). WizFoot is pretty slow, FlaChoke, while not being punishable on block unlike WizFoot (Well, he'll just straight choke you), somewhat has some end lag. I do believe having a better mobility would help in that case, but given I don't play Ganon (I face like, hundreds of them in FG though), take this with a grain of salt.

Ganon with shieldgrab? Don't know if it'll actually make him OP, unless his throws can lead to his strong moves (And by strong, I mean his entire kit except of jab).

Huh... well, what do you think about Luigi's ground game? If Mario's ground game is bad, then so would Luigi (He also has short range). Though, he is definitely stronger than Mario in that regard.

U-tilt string? Again, unless your opponent has soemthing ridiculiously fast (Frame 3 N-air or something like that), I don't see them breaking. And oh, D-throw + U-air + Up-b? Or work something out from sourspot N-air? I don't see him getting too much damage for one combo, so you may have a point, but still, his frame data is excellent, and that 17% counts, and it's a good thing it's a true combo, it's not punishable on hit.

 

[HeroMystic]

At low percents, Up-B can be unsafe on hit if your character has fast fall speed. This is mitigated if you have platforms available.

 

[warionumbah2]

And Mario can outspeeds them quite easily.

In terms of air mobility Mario's is better, on the ground MK is clearly faster. 9th Fastest Dash speed ontop of the DA that lunges him forwards and the fact that on certain frames Mk jumps up dodging Dtilts altogether avoiding clanks(Hard as hell to do but its a good gimmick he has going on but Kirby can duck during this animation sadly).

Mario can't out speed MK that easily, MK Down Smash comes out faster(by 1 frame) and has the same effect as Mario's with the second hit jazz. Dtilt comes out on frame 3 which is as fast as Mario's jab(?) Even Dair(frame 4) comes out fast enough to stop Mario's Utilt strings(Around 30% i think this prevents Mario from ending it with U-Smash which is disgusting).

If you were only on about Ike then my bad.

Sonic F-smash, Luigi F-smash, Metaknight F-smash, Zelda F-smash, Ganon U-smash, G&W U-smash, ZSS D-smash, and Little Mac's Smashes are all safe on block for reference if I recall.

Yup,MK F-Smash is as safe as Greninja's U-Smash pre patch.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sonic F-smash, Luigi F-smash, Metaknight F-smash, Zelda F-smash, Ganon U-smash, G&W U-smash, ZSS D-smash, and Little Mac's Smashes are all safe on block for reference if I recall.

Ganondorf does 22 damage with D-throw DA, 19 damage with D-throw U-air, and better yet he can get like 28 damage from D-throw N-air on some characters at low percents. His low percent grab game is really good, and then F-throw does 13% once that stops working, though he can still get 50/50s into death with D-throw at higher percents especially by the edge. The only problem for Ganondorf is his grab range is actually bad enough that it gives him problems dealing with some offensive pressure reliably, but his actual grab reward is very good both in terms of damage and positional advantage.

Luigi's ground game is mostly Fireball and grab, and that combined with his superior Jab is generally speaking better than what Mario can do on the ground. Just his low mobility and sliding shield does get him killed against someone like Little Mac as I've argued before who is designed to be highly dominant in footsies.

Also many characters can either shield or jump out of U-tilt strings unless you start them at specific percents.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

I hate to admit it, but every thing that he says about Mario's weaknesses are true. My toughest matchups are against big characters or strong characters like bowser, Ike and Dk, the biggest problem I always end up having is that there is really no safe way for me to approach them because their tilts have great spacing and are powerful to boot. All this maybe me and my inability to adapt to certain play styles but that's the one thing I constantly notice in those match ups