I Think Zelda Needs Changes

[Angell]

Hello fellow Zelda mains! I haven't posted anything here for a pretty long time now, but I do have something that has been on my mind for the past few months. (even before 3.5 came out) I think it's finally time to get ridiculed by everyone on here who dismissed almost everything instantly. I also want to get something else out of the way, I don't suck. and I'm not salty.

I think Zelda needs some minor tweaks to be an A-tier character.

She's a gimmick character right now and someone who knows her bull**** will have a HUGE advantage over her. It is currently way too easy (for some characters) to exploit Zelda's weaknesses. It is nearly impossible to exploit her weaknesses for some characters. It's a simple strategy. Just run and gun. (and if you can't do that you lose) This leads to her having some of the most lopsided matchups in the game.

She is nearly impossible to approach, and her own approaches are easily shut down. The main problem she has is shown when she plays vs. a character that can out-camp her, and then combo her pretty hard (Fox/ Marth). It also shows when she is against a character with approaches she can shut down (Jiggs/ Gannon).

Thoughts? Agree or disagree?

 

[otheusrex]

I think Zelda needs some minor tweaks to be an A-tier character.

She's a gimmick character right now and someone who knows her bull**** will have a HUGE advantage over her. It is currently way too easy (for some characters) to exploit Zelda's weaknesses.

This resulted from them nerfing her ability to escape so much, which used to be a strength of hers. They wanted to make her more rewarding to engage with, which means fun to combo and beat. They succeeded, but doing away with this strength while forgetting that

and her own approaches are easily shut down. {/quote]
means that they ended up simply taking away from her ability to win rather than redesigning how she plays.

The main problem she has is shown when she plays vs. a character that can out-camp her, and then combo her pretty hard (Fox/ Marth). It also shows when she is against a character with approaches she can shut down (Jiggs/ Gannon).

I agree, but I'll try to shed some more light on this. Zelda always has been a character with a difficult neutral game but great punishes. Yes she has a lot of tools to keep an opponent out in neutral, but in the neutral game characters are striving to gain enough positional advantage to force the opponent into making a mistake they can punish; this is where most characters have tools to help them force a mistake with little risk to themselves. All the best characters have great methods of doing this, and Zelda has poor tools for this.

At beginning levels through high-mid levels of play, the neutral game is less demanding. Those players make technical and tactical errors regularly, enabling even a character with no dedicated approach tools to succeed easily if they have a decent punish game and that player is patient enough to wait for their opponent to make a mistake. Zelda has always been one of these characters, and that explains why she has difficulty with characters who can camp effectively and still convert into solid punishes.

In the past, this weakness of hers was understood and designed around to keep her viable. Yes, she had a difficult neutral game but getting hit wasn't as punishing as it was for some other characters because she had more special tools to return to neutral and try again. Even so, her fundamental capabilities with normals, movement options and such is bad enough that they also gave her approach options to help, such as teledash and a nayrus love that worked as an approach if you made a good read. (some people might consider former dins to be an approach tool , although i personally don't because it was too slow). Now much of her special escape tools have been taken away while simultaneously nerfing her special approach tools, making her much worse off. However, most people are in mid level environments in which these issues aren't as noticeable, which I think explains the largely varying opinions on Zelda's viability.

 

[Downdraft]

Another factor that may influence the largely varying opinions on Zelda's viability could just be 3.5. Zelda was not the only character that was nerfed hard. One big question to ask ourselves is which matchups became less favorable?

 

[otheusrex]

I'd say squirtle has. The few buffs to her combo game, dins fire and fthrow, don't matter much for him. Her good combo starters are all multihits that trade disadvantageously. Finally, he has the ultimate floaty slayer now with his up B, which he can combo into. Also, that stupid armor that cmart added because it's the only mechanic he knows how to do.

 

[Downdraft]

I'd say squirtle has. The few buffs to her combo game, dins fire and fthrow, don't matter much for him. Her good combo starters are all multihits that trade disadvantageously. Finally, he has the ultimate floaty slayer now with his up B, which he can combo into. Also, that stupid armor that cmart added because it's the only mechanic he knows how to do.

I'd agree that the matchup got harder, but for different reasons. The new Din's doesn't allow for effective stage control to slow Squirtle down. The new Din's doesn't allow elaborate combo setups either, and you've already mentioned her weakened escape game. What I don't understand if that you said her good combo starters are multihits that trade disadvantageously. F-tilt is a good combo starter, does it not trade favorably IYO? How about U-tilt? It's a slow attack, but it can start combos at low percents. Those are both single hit moves right? I looked at the hitbox and frame data thread and got confused by something else too. Why do the 3 hitboxes on U-tilt have the same hitbox data?

 

[otheusrex]

Why do the 3 hitboxes on U-tilt have the same hitbox data?

If I understand your question, this is just a means of filling out the shape of the threatened area. Most attacks that involve swinging limbs or swords have multiple hitboxes to cover the entire limb so that on the off chance an opponent misses the outer one but is still overlapping the rest of the limb, it doesn't look strange that it missed. Think Sheik's ftilt or ike's sword. Marth's tipper mechanic, as well as many of zelda's sweetspots are exceptions. If the different hitboxes on her uptilt had different data, then it'd result in some sort of sweetspot mechanic.

What I don't understand if that you said her good combo starters are multihits that trade disadvantageously. F-tilt is a good combo starter, does it not trade favorably IYO? How about U-tilt? It's a slow attack, but it can start combos at low percents.

Oh i guess I missed those. That mu does probably shift some of her reliance on combo starts to ftilt and uptilt, but I still wouldn't consider those especially helpful. Nayrus and upsmash are what I consider her 'good' combo starters as they threaten a wide area, don't have precision sweetspot demands, and yield excellent followups. Ftilt is right up there, but lags behind them in the space that it covers and there not being as many situations in neutral to land it (though it's still good). However, I wouldn't consider ftilt and uptilt 'good' combo starters for squirtle because he can easily win in neutral while making it very hard to land these on him, and the punishment for whiffing is very likely as well.

 

[G13_Flux]

Hello fellow Zelda mains! I haven't posted anything here for a pretty long time now, but I do have something that has been on my mind for the past few months. (even before 3.5 came out) I think it's finally time to get ridiculed by everyone on here who dismissed almost everything instantly. I also want to get something else out of the way, I don't suck. and I'm not salty.

I think Zelda needs some minor tweaks to be an A-tier character.

She's a gimmick character right now and someone who knows her bull**** will have a HUGE advantage over her. It is currently way too easy (for some characters) to exploit Zelda's weaknesses. It is nearly impossible to exploit her weaknesses for some characters. It's a simple strategy. Just run and gun. (and if you can't do that you lose) This leads to her having some of the most lopsided matchups in the game.

She is nearly impossible to approach, and her own approaches are easily shut down. The main problem she has is shown when she plays vs. a character that can out-camp her, and then combo her pretty hard (Fox/ Marth). It also shows when she is against a character with approaches she can shut down (Jiggs/ Gannon).

Thoughts? Agree or disagree?

how is she impossible to approach? her quickest moves come out on frame 4 or 5 and they are all kinda situational and short ranged. dsmash (frame 4) has like, no range, and while its great for quick surprise kills and defensive hits, its pretty punishable considering that theres tons of characters with frame 2,3, and 4 jabs that dont have anywhere near the commitment as her dsmash. dtilt (frame 5) is easily her most situational move and not even worth it to use under 80% on most characters. up smash is quite situational. past that, her fastest move is frame 8 with utilt (hardly something you would use in neutral unless youre asking to be punished) and frame 9 with a grounded neutral b (which is a heavy commitment). if you were to land cancel a neutral b, that takes over 20 frames to even start. zeldas lowest commitment move is her jab, but that comes out on frame 11, and possesses a differing, defensive use than typical jabs. ftilt is frame 10 with a decent commitment. aside from that she has her grab (frame 8) but her ground speed is slow, so JC grab punishes arent always optimal; and dash attack (frame 6) which is basically a slightly crappier version of peach's dash attack (though still pretty decent). she really doesnt have anything notable in regards to quick startup and low commitment. if she wants to get a reward, she really has to commit (side b, ftilt, dash attack, grab). lightning kicks are good too, but again, its kind of commitment for her to be in the air. as long as you readthe pattern of her lightning kick attacks, and play it patiently inside a threatening range (inside her side b range), then shes not really terribly difficult to approach, at least to the extent that even if you get hit with a defensive option (jab, neutral b, dsmash), she doesnt get much reward from it.

 

[otheusrex]

how is she impossible to approach? her quickest moves come out on frame 4 or 5 and they are all kinda situational and short ranged. dsmash (frame 4) has like, no range, and while its great for quick surprise kills and defensive hits, its pretty punishable considering that theres tons of characters with frame 2,3, and 4 jabs that dont have anywhere near the commitment as her dsmash. dtilt (frame 5) is easily her most situational move and not even worth it to use under 80% on most characters. up smash is quite situational. past that, her fastest move is frame 8 with utilt (hardly something you would use in neutral unless youre asking to be punished) and frame 9 with a grounded neutral b (which is a heavy commitment). if you were to land cancel a neutral b, that takes over 20 frames to even start. zeldas lowest commitment move is her jab, but that comes out on frame 11, and possesses a differing, defensive use than typical jabs. ftilt is frame 10 with a decent commitment. aside from that she has her grab (frame 8) but her ground speed is slow, so JC grab punishes arent always optimal; and dash attack (frame 6) which is basically a slightly crappier version of peach's dash attack (though still pretty decent). she really doesnt have anything notable in regards to quick startup and low commitment. if she wants to get a reward, she really has to commit (side b, ftilt, dash attack, grab). lightning kicks are good too, but again, its kind of commitment for her to be in the air. as long as you readthe pattern of her lightning kick attacks, and play it patiently inside a threatening range (inside her side b range), then shes not really terribly difficult to approach, at least to the extent that even if you get hit with a defensive option (jab, neutral b, dsmash), she doesnt get much reward from it.

I agree with all this except that I think these are all reasons why it's tough to approach as zelda. Zelda still has great shut out moves to punish or keep out unsafe approaches. She just has trouble with the people who have really safe or noncommital approach options as her keep out moves as stated above are all punishable on whiff.

 

[Downdraft]

I agree with all this except that I think these are all reasons why it's tough to approach as zelda. Zelda still has great shut out moves to punish or keep out unsafe approaches. She just has trouble with the people who have really safe or noncommital approach options as her keep out moves as stated above are all punishable on whiff.

The bold part sounds like Palutena, but Zelda doesn't have it that bad.

 

[G13_Flux]

she doesnt have the greatest approach game, but with a fireball in place she can set up some interesting traps. she does have a great grab range and a pretty decent dash attack, so you just have to inch yourself into range of the opponent to threaten them.

her lightning kicks do serve well as an approach, as you can vary between throwing 1 out at different times in the SHFFL, throwing 2 out, or doing an empty jump/neutral b. the point I was trying to make above is that its not impossible to get past. she DOES have approach options, which are enhanced through making a first commitment with dins fire. as an opponent, theyre not the strongest approach options in the game, but with a smart and careful zelda, they can still be dangerous. so you just have to play it patiently to get a read on her movements instead of rushing in. not impossible to approach. not impossible to approach with, although zelda does favor a slightly more defensive, calculating demeanor as opposed to an overwhelming rushdown style character.

 

[Angell]

This is a really healthy discussion! I'm thinking about a lot of new stuf as I scroll through it! Something I do a lot to punish a shield is run up>rar>short hop>wait> Bair right above the ground. You would be surprised how many good players this catches off gaurd as they try to WD OoS right before you hit the ground to tomahawk.

Also a short hop fastfall into a wavelave behind people is a great tool.

@ otheusrex its very hard in neutral for me because mistakes in tech skill or positioning are not common with people on my level

My main question in creating this is do we as Zeldas need to get better or should the character be buffed? I feel as if it is the latter of the two because there are some *Cough* Marth characters that you can completely outplay mentally and still lose to because it's really hard to stop fair spam.

Also someone was asking who Zelda's worst MU is. It's Marth, it's totally Marth.

 

[Downdraft]

This is a really healthy discussion! I'm thinking about a lot of new stuf as I scroll through it! Something I do a lot to punish a shield is run up>rar>short hop>wait> Bair right above the ground. You would be surprised how many good players this catches off gaurd as they try to WD OoS right before you hit the ground to tomahawk.

Also a short hop fastfall into a wavelave behind people is a great tool.

@ otheusrex its very hard in neutral for me because mistakes in tech skill or positioning are not common with people on my level

My main question in creating this is do we as Zeldas need to get better or should the character be buffed? I feel as if it is the latter of the two because there are some *Cough* Marth characters that you can completely outplay mentally and still lose to because it's really hard to stop fair spam.

Also someone was asking who Zelda's worst MU is. It's Marth, it's totally Marth.

I'm going to respond by paragraph/sentence.

1. I'll try and remember that option. RAR is not in my arsenal.
2. wavelave? Do you mean wavedash?
3. What would come of your question? She needed buffs from 3.02 and overall got nerfed instead. Granted, much of the cast also received significant nerfs.
4. From my experience and online observations, I'd disagree with your opinion regarding Marth.

 

[TimeSmash]

I'm going to respond by paragraph/sentence.

2. wavelave? Do you mean wavedash?

Most likely mean waveland I would imagine haha.

I'm glad this thread was made. Whereas the Song of Time thread goes over what changes were made, I specifically made it so proposed changes weren't a huge topic. Now this thread fills that niche (which I really should have thought of after I made the other thread haha, thanks)

 

[otheusrex]

My proposed changes:

Nayrus: no reverse hitbox on the end, hitboxes start on frame 5, LC timing to just after the hitboxes end like in previous versions. No other reversions to part incarnations (like invinsibility or love jump) but see transform, below.
Dins: Shorter minimum set distance by virtue of letting go sooner, larger manual and timed out explosions, restored fall speed stall in the air, smoke gfx on wisp to indicate when clanked, more maneuverability on casting, camera doesn't track after zelda is hit
Farore: Platform detection size increased for snapping to platforms, no 2 frame delay after pressing b for shorten, aerial disappearence sped up to match grounded version, landing lag restored to previous versions, shorten landing lag to match grounded, no vertical wall catches when pressing striaght up, farore slides along vertical walls when angled into like fox's or ness's, restored hitbox properties of the farore's start up ribbon hit
Jab: restored to 55 degree angle
Grab: frame 7
ftilt: inner hitboxes clank projectiles
dsmash: restored linking hitbox in the middle for spacing reasons
upsmash: added lower hitbox to prevent shorter characters from running underneath, added gfx to suggest placement like mewtwo's
Kicks: hitboxes reprioritized to include former critical kick spacing, gfx moved to indicate sweetspot more accurately
upair: size of spark hitbox on hand increased

 

[TimeSmash]

I'd also like the Din's float to be restored. I do recall @Magus420 talking about it briefly, and he also talked about how the 2 frame delay would be fixed for Teleshortening. Though I'm tagging him in this just in case I misspoke.

As for Farore's, I believe it may have been a technical limitation as to why it gets caught in walls. This was discussed in a couple of old threads, one which may have been in the Bugs and Glitches section. I don't know if having it slide up walls like FD is the best idea; granted, we should be allowed to get back from that angle somehow, but Zelda's UpB is quite long, and might make her recovery a little too safe.

What I don't exactly understand is the severing of DSmash hits linking into each other. While not exactly the same style as Ganon's DSmash, it would make sense if the two moves followed the same logic, given how close they are aesthetically

I don't think we'll get the supersweetspots back on kicks, which is sad but also understandable. Something good from that loss though, is that we won't be in stun for so long after landing one

In regards to myself, I would like the Teleshort to grab edges if possible. Maybe it already does this; it's been a bit since I played the game and the only recent time I did, I didn't test this.

 

[otheusrex]

I'd also like the Din's float to be restored. I do recall @Magus420 talking about it briefly, and he also talked about how the 2 frame delay would be fixed for Teleshortening. Though I'm tagging him in this just in case I misspoke.

As for Farore's, I believe it may have been a technical limitation as to why it gets caught in walls. This was discussed in a couple of old threads, one which may have been in the Bugs and Glitches section. I don't know if having it slide up walls like FD is the best idea; granted, we should be allowed to get back from that angle somehow, but Zelda's UpB is quite long, and might make her recovery a little too safe.

What I don't exactly understand is the severing of DSmash hits linking into each other. While not exactly the same style as Ganon's DSmash, it would make sense if the two moves followed the same logic, given how close they are aesthetically

I don't think we'll get the supersweetspots back on kicks, which is sad but also understandable. Something good from that loss though, is that we won't be in stun for so long after landing one

In regards to myself, I would like the Teleshort to grab edges if possible. Maybe it already does this; it's been a bit since I played the game and the only recent time I did, I didn't test this.

couple thing I want to clarify:
1) I think Magus said he was going to reduce the endlag of telecancel by 2 frames, not get rid of the 2 frame delay after you press B
2) I don't think Zelda's recovery is in danger of being too good, though i understand a lot of people might disagree. In terms of distance, off the top of my head though, i know that ness's and fox's up b's function similarly as far as angling and then traveling in that direction, they go as far or farther than zelda's, AND angle upwards against walls to sweetspot. Now I anticipate some people will argue that fox's and ness's are special since they are considered vulnerable during recovery, but let me also point out that any character with a glide has near limitless recovery potential given some height, glides slide up a wall too, and they have the added bonus of being able to mix up trajectories to adjust to edgegaurding. But let's say that glides are special too and toss them aside as well. I think it's simply a general floaty characteristic to have better recoveries. Looking at Peach, Luigi, and Jigglypuff, Samus, Kirby, and DDD; all of them have at least nearly as great or even greater recovery distance, often with more variable ways to mix up their recoveries than Zelda, and unless I'm mistaken, have some sort of option that slides up angled walls too. Now, I'm asking for this change cause I see it as somewhat of a glitch, not necessarily cause i'm asking for buffs. But if that 'fix' ends up improving her recovery, well... I'm not of the opinion that every design fix needs to nerf Zelda.
3) having zelda's dsmash hits send into one another like ganon's would be an interesting idea.
4) I wasn't asking for supersweetspots back, just that she shouldn't whiff now when you space a kick that would have crit before

 

[TimeSmash]

couple thing I want to clarify:
1) I think Magus said he was going to reduce the endlag of telecancel by 2 frames, not get rid of the 2 frame delay after you press B
2) I don't think Zelda's recovery is in danger of being too good, though i understand a lot of people might disagree. In terms of distance, off the top of my head though, i know that ness's and fox's up b's function similarly as far as angling and then traveling in that direction, they go as far or farther than zelda's, AND angle upwards against walls to sweetspot. Now I anticipate some people will argue that fox's and ness's are special since they are considered vulnerable during recovery, but let me also point out that any character with a glide has near limitless recovery potential given some height, glides slide up a wall too, and they have the added bonus of being able to mix up trajectories to adjust to edgegaurding. But let's say that glides are special too and toss them aside as well. I think it's simply a general floaty characteristic to have better recoveries. Looking at Peach, Luigi, and Jigglypuff, Samus, Kirby, and DDD; all of them have at least nearly as great or even greater recovery distance, often with more variable ways to mix up their recoveries than Zelda, and unless I'm mistaken, have some sort of option that slides up angled walls too. Now, I'm asking for this change cause I see it as somewhat of a glitch, not necessarily cause i'm asking for buffs. But if that 'fix' ends up improving her recovery, well... I'm not of the opinion that every design fix needs to nerf Zelda.
3) having zelda's dsmash hits send into one another like ganon's would be an interesting idea.
4) I wasn't asking for supersweetspots back, just that she shouldn't whiff now when you space a kick that would have crit before

Yes, 1 I might have remembered incorrectly, can you blame me? haha

And 2 I am pretty sure Zelda's recovery outranks Ness and Fox's, though I totally agree it's a bit slanted that they can go against walls to sweetspot. Zelda still has a lot of opportunity to be hit in the beginning UpB. The walls glitch should defintiely be addressed.
4. Oh okay, misinterpreted. I semi-agree with this because it's so hard to get used to. I need to get a picture comparison of the hitboxes haha

 

[otheusrex]

1) only too glad to make the distinction because I think a lot of people misunderstood that at the time, and will probably be disappointed when zelda's telecancel still has the 2 frame delay
4) magus's post on the "today's the day" has an excellent illustration of the hitbox differences

 

[WhiteCrow]

Stuff

For some reason I thought it would be more fitting to answer this drunk than sober. Sorry. I won't dismiss what you have to say but I will be giving my own opinion of 3.5 Zelda.

I think Zelda is A tier. Though, if you've read my sig, you would know that I think all characters in PM are A tier characters. And I am of the opinion that Zelda is A+ tier and lacks proper representation to be pushed to her limits.

I don't know why you think that Zelda is a gimmick character but I also don't know what you define is a gimmick. To me, a gimmick is a character or match-up that isn't fully understood, like Peach's down smash or Fox's shine or Ike's quick draw. I'm sure we have different definitions, everyone seems to have their own. All characters will be able to exploit Zelda's weaknesses, that's the nature of Smash. I don't think any of her match-ups are lop sided. Fox is terrifying but manageable if you put him on edge and don't stay in shield. Ice Climbers can destroy Zelda (a match-up I think Zelda wins) with their insane wave dash and properly spaced KO moves. I think that Zelda was easier to exploit in 3.0 because her mines (an essential part of her play style) were just so punishable.

I don't think she's impossible to approach, though she requires a lot of preparation in neutral. She's really slow and good at baiting unsafe approaches. I agree that her approaches are sub par, but she does have a teleport, a land cancelable reflector, and a projectile/trap. Hard to complain with that when some characters like DK, Metaknight, Marth, Ike, and Wario have none of those options. You need to play very patiently with Zelda, and I don't think there is a match-up for her in Project M that is un-winnable. If you're getting out-camped you need platforms to aid your teleports, and you need to use your traps to limit your opponent's movement after camping. I usually ban big tri platform stages like Battlefield and Dream land since I hate getting top platform camped.

Anyhow, I don't think the new Zelda is terrible and I don't think it was a poor design choice. It was just a step in another direction. She'll probably change again in future patches and that seems to be the theme of PM. I'm enjoying her current iteration, and I think she has more potential than ever.

 

[Downdraft]

@ TimeSmash @ otheusrex

Good opportunity to explain the kick differences I suppose:

Top is 3.02 and bottom 3.5. The green/blue middle sized ones on the body all have the same damage/KB, the tiny red one on the toe on 3.02 is the supersweetspot, and the largest yellow/orange on the toe on 3.02/3.5 are the 'melee' sweetspots. The initial 'melee' hitbox is stronger in 3.5 and roughly similar to melee kick's KB, with f-air keeping the slightly lower trajectory it's always had in PM to be a little more effective than melee f-air and b-air being pretty much the same KB as melee.

When multiple hitboxes connect on something at the same time the one that gets used depends on their priority, which is just the ID number used on the hitbox (lower ID = more priority).
3.02: Blue > Red > Green> Yellow
-Supersweet: Connect Red without connecting with Blue
-Sweet(-): Connect Yellow without connecting with any other hitbox
-Flub: Connect any part of Blue, or connect Green without connecting with Red
3.5: Blue > Green > Orange
-Sweet(+): Connect Orange without connecting with Blue/Green
-Flub: Connect any part of Blue/Green
The lines I put on there show the strictly horizontal spacing to land each hit, though it assumes you're hitting a big fat hurtbox. On 3.02 supersweet hit you usually can't get as close as that inner red line and connect the Red hitbox unless you're hitting a large character's torso or something, and being as small as it was wasn't always reliable when aiming for other parts and tended to whiff smaller moving hurtboxes like arms/legs or them simply being slightly off the Z axis during the animation.

Ledgehop kick works, just need to not jump as far in if they are right on the edge, since the inside of the orange range is further out than how close you could be and land the red supersweet hit before.

The higher KB and slightly more damage at long range on 3.5 kicks is a little better for tight combos that there wasn't enough stun to get close enough to connect the super on their torso to guarantee that hitbox connects, and arguably same or possibly better in neutral (not as clear there since there's both positives/negatives on each for that purpose). The blue leg/hip hitbox no longer needing to regulate the supersweet spacing and being back on her hip gives more body coverage but doesn't matter in most cases. Obviously quite a lot worse for lenient combos where the super toe was guaranteed. Though loss of super toes sounds worse I can see 3.5 kicks being a net neutral/positive in some matchups.

@ WhiteCrow I can agree with most of what you said. Regarding Zelda's tier placement however, I believe opinions are based on her struggles in multiple matchups and the lack of representation to help other players figure out how to handle certain characters at mid and high levels of play. I'd agree that there aren't any unwinnable matchups, but there are a few where I believe many Zelda players feel they'd be better off with another character. The problem is that many of us primarily main Zelda, so we don't have a great second or third option to handle characters that give us trouble at our level. Therefore, our perceptions may be somewhat skewed currently while we our lost at how to handle our problems.

 

[Angell]

4. From my experience and online observations, I'd disagree with your opinion regarding Marth.

Can you please elaborate on this? I think from my experience that it is one of the Most slanted match ups in the game. Honestly, I guess the best place for me to start with this is the fair (marth's) I just don't see the logic behind the PMBR keeping that move so strong from melee, it was pretty oppressive there and it is still dominant here (in PM)

And yes I did mean waveland, whoops! Damn you autocorrect!

 

[TimeSmash]

Can you please elaborate on this? I think from my experience that it is one of the Most slanted match ups in the game. Honestly, I guess the best place for me to start with this is the fair (marth's) I just don't see the logic behind the PMBR keeping that move so strong from melee, it was pretty oppressive there and it is still dominant here (in PM)

And yes I did mean waveland, whoops! Damn you autocorrect!

I guess going off of this is the equal idioticness of Uptilt not being able to go through Battlefield or Dreamland platforms, when Marth gets to FSmash so easily.

 

[WhiteCrow]

I guess going off of this is the equal idioticness of Uptilt not being able to go through Battlefield or Dreamland platforms, when Marth gets to FSmash so easily.

In Marth's defense, he doesn't have a projectile trap or a teleport to cover the platform. He instead has large disjoints that are heavily reliant on perfect spacing to be effective. Bowser's up-smash covers almost entire platforms from below, does that mean Zelda needs this? Not really. If you want to up-tilt through platforms then counterpick Yoshi's Story and Warioware.

 

[otheusrex]

In Marth's defense, he doesn't have a projectile trap or a teleport to cover the platform. He instead has large disjoints that are heavily reliant on perfect spacing to be effective.

Not that I'm arguing her uptilt needs to go through battfield platforms, but does anyone else see the irony in marth stressing his reliance on perfect spacing to a Zelda main?

 

[WhiteCrow]

Not that I'm arguing her uptilt needs to go through battfield platforms, but does anyone else see the irony in marth stressing his reliance on perfect spacing to a Zelda main?

It makes the whole matchup ironic. Both players have to be aware of which hit box they are connecting with. Marth has an advantage at close and mid range because of his dash dance (baiting laggy ground moves), a great grab range (with DI mixups that force you out of shield), and an amazing wave dash (helping his spacing way more than Zelda's). We have a much better recovery and more full screen options, but neutral is still rough at close range. I'd say it's no worse that 55/45 Marth's favor.

And on Zelda's up tilt, I posted this a long time ago.

http://imgur.com/a/LkfuG

 

[Downdraft]

It makes the whole matchup ironic. Both players have to be aware of which hit box they are connecting with. Marth has an advantage at close and mid range because of his dash dance (baiting laggy ground moves), a great grab range (with DI mixups that force you out of shield), and an amazing wave dash (helping his spacing way more than Zelda's). We have a much better recovery and more full screen options, but neutral is still rough at close range. I'd say it's no worse that 55/45 Marth's favor.

And on Zelda's up tilt, I posted this a long time ago.

http://imgur.com/a/LkfuG

Thanks for giving your account of why Marth isn't Zelda's worst matchup. I didn't know the platforms on PS2 were higher.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Thanks for giving your account of why Marth isn't Zelda's worst matchup. I didn't know the platforms on PS2 were higher.

Yep. Common misconception. PS2 platforms are actually BF height

 

[Angell]

It makes the whole matchup ironic. Both players have to be aware of which hit box they are connecting with. Marth has an advantage at close and mid range because of his dash dance (baiting laggy ground moves), a great grab range (with DI mixups that force you out of shield), and an amazing wave dash (helping his spacing way more than Zelda's). We have a much better recovery and more full screen options, but neutral is still rough at close range. I'd say it's no worse that 55/45 Marth's favor

While I totally agree with your summary of the match up, 55/45 goes against everything else you wrote. Long range superiority means very little is a Marth is a half decent player, he won't allow you that distance. And plus mid-short range is where this game is played. He has both a better grab and better throws to force you out of shield (as you said). While recovery is a good thing to have it doesn't help when you die around 80% to that stupid character, also with the change to make her tp shorter a GOOD Marth WILL edge gaurd you really well.

You also forgot to mention that marth's sh double fair shuts out a lot of options Zelda can utilize vs. other characters.

I'd call it a generous 35/65 marth's favor.

Source: playing with and talking with some players in SoCal who are not on the power rankings, but beat up on some people who are on the power rankings who play marth

 

[Downdraft]

While I totally agree with your summary of the match up, 55/45 goes against everything else you wrote. Long range superiority means very little is a Marth is a half decent player, he won't allow you that distance. And plus mid-short range is where this game is played. He has both a better grab and better throws to force you out of shield (as you said). While recovery is a good thing to have it doesn't help when you die around 80% to that stupid character, also with the change to make her tp shorter a GOOD Marth WILL edge gaurd you really well.

You also forgot to mention that marth's sh double fair shuts out a lot of options Zelda can utilize vs. other characters.

I'd call it a generous 35/65 marth's favor.

Source: playing with and talking with some players in SoCal who are not on the power rankings, but beat up on some people who are on the power rankings who play marth

I get the impression that you think Marth is "cheap" versus Zelda. Is that correct?
I'd be interested in knowing why you consider Marth to be worse than Squirtle or Link.

 

[Angell]

I get the impression that you think Marth is "cheap" versus Zelda. Is that correct?
I'd be interested in knowing why you consider Marth to be worse than Squirtle or Link.

1. no, he's not cheap, I actually think he's the best character in pm right now because he really avoided that entire nerf wave. But that is not why he wins so hard vs. Zelda, it's because even if you read him, most of the time he is too fast to be punished. It's not even that marth needs a nerf, Zelda just needs a buff. Like a way longer wavedash! (PMDT plz) And Maybe with that when I wavedash OoS I'll actually go somewhere.

2. Link is an easy MU for me, stay in mid range,throw some fires, use platforms to maneuver, If he uses a laggy attack, smack him with a kick. if he uses a projectile, try to go in avoiding it by wave landing on platforms. Also catch the bombs. (This is a good general game plan)

I have never lost a stock to a squirrel in a serious 1v1 so I can offer no info for you here.

I started playing pm from brawl, so I am someone who focuses a lot more on the reads and that kind of stuff. (Reads>reaction) That is why I play Zelda.

Last thing, just a little note,why does Zelda's dair suck?

 

[Downdraft]

1. no, he's not cheap, I actually think he's the best character in pm right now because he really avoided that entire nerf wave. But that is not why he wins so hard vs. Zelda, it's because even if you read him, most of the time he is too fast to be punished. It's not even that marth needs a nerf, Zelda just needs a buff. Like a way longer wavedash! (PMDT plz) And Maybe with that when I wavedash OoS I'll actually go somewhere.

2. Link is an easy MU for me, stay in mid range,throw some fires, use platforms to maneuver, If he uses a laggy attack, smack him with a kick. if he uses a projectile, try to go in avoiding it by wave landing on platforms. Also catch the bombs. (This is a good general game plan)

I have never lost a stock to a squirrel in a serious 1v1 so I can offer no info for you here.

I started playing pm from brawl, so I am someone who focuses a lot more on the reads and that kind of stuff. (Reads>reaction) That is why I play Zelda.

Last thing, just a little note,why does Zelda's dair suck?

1. Zelda arguably could have used some buffs on her 3.02 build, but she was nerfed overall instead. I agree with the too fast part. f-air doesn't really need to be L-cancelled and f-smash doesn't have much lag. If you're out of the range of f-smash, then you run the risk of getting f-smashed when you try to run in after Marth has hit thin air.

2. Perceptions of mathcups are influenced by competition. Perhaps you're in a more supportive community or are more well versed in the matchup than me, but the Link I play against is no slouch but not even close to the best, and it's a matchup I haven't solved. You claim that you have never lost a stock to a Squirtle in a serious 1v1. If you're not losing stocks in a 4-stock match versus the Squirtles you've faced, then that suggests that they are suffering from matchup inexperience or just aren't good at Squirtle because I haven't seen anyone dominate a good Squirtle. I've watched Irish and Zhime have some trouble versus Squirtle.

 

[otheusrex]

I agree, squirtle is a hard counter for Zelda. I'd love to see some matches though, if you have some of you playing squirtle and link! @ Angell . I would agree that Marth is fine but Zelda would just need buffs to deal. I feel like that in a bunch of match ups, and maybe lately i've just been a bit salty about a lot of things... but if I'm not wrong, then how I see it is that she doesn't have much to do in neutral to win when you're facing a staunch and carefully defensive player. Her punish game is decent, still good even though it was nerfed just through a plethora of micro-nerfs, and although there's like 1 or two characters that she can't punish very well (luigi, jiggly come to mind) that's not something i would argue is essential. It's more about her neutral game lacking in the ability to pressure, which has really become a staple for all characters in PM. I realize that part of Zelda's design philosophy is being a defensive character, 1) but that can be achieved in many different ways (look at sheik, who is considered a defensive character), and 2) the pmdt nerfed her defensive capabilities to slip out of combos because they felt that just wasn't fun to fight and was an issue, even if it made sense thematically and was technically balanced.

Her dair, despite not being as easy to use as falcons or ganons, is still pretty good. Her dair has always kinda been something flashy and used only occasionally rather than a central tool, and it works great for that. If we were expected to be using dair all the time to function though, then I'd agree that it could be better.

 

[Angell]

You claim that you have never lost a stock to a Squirtle in a serious 1v1. If you're not losing stocks in a 4-stock match versus the Squirtles you've faced, then that suggests that they are suffering from matchup inexperience or just aren't good at Squirtle because I haven't seen anyone dominate a good Squirtle. I've watched Irish and Zhime have some trouble versus Squirtle.

Noboby good really plays squirtle in my area, I'm sure he's annoying, but I've never faced a good one.

Try putting the Dian's on the ground to counter side b and as soon as he starts to approach use teleport and go to the top platform, then teleport again from there, that little trick works pretty well against linear approaches! I encourage you to practice it and try it out!

 

[WhiteCrow]

1)Long range superiority means very little is a Marth is a half decent player, he won't allow you that distance.

2) And plus mid-short range is where this game is played.

3) He has both a better grab and better throws to force you out of shield (as you said).

4) While recovery is a good thing to have it doesn't help when you die around 80% to that stupid character,

5) also with the change to make her tp shorter a GOOD Marth WILL edge gaurd you really well.

6) You also forgot to mention that marth's sh double fair shuts out a lot of options Zelda can utilize vs. other characters.

1) If you are fighting a half decent player then you are doing something right. You just have to play better than them, it's as easy as that. What made characters "bad" in Melee? Bad matchups. Marth could destroy Zelda in Melee because more than half her moves were useless. Now she has tons of new tools and Marth got next to nothing. You have to out space them.

2) Zelda does well at mid and short range if you bait correctly and punish accordingly. Some of her moves have more disjoint and speed than people expect. You should be watching your opponents character more than your own in this position.

3) Our throws are DI mixups into kill options as well, one throw being a kill move in itself, and we have a better pummel. We also have Din's which we can throw people into for guaranteed followups. Someone should link Magus' post on comparative grab ranges, ours isn't that far from Marth's. (edit, I will http://i.imgur.com/Mrzepjz.png)

4) If you are dying at 80% to Marth you need to pick bigger stages and DI better. We can force Marth into f-smash syndrome soooo easily at over 100% where he's vulnerable to CC at low percents and terrified of lightning kicks at high percents.

5) The distance of our teleport didn't shorten in 3.5, but we gained the ability to shorten from the air. That means edge canceled teleports. Mix it up for crying out loud. Do the reappearing hitbox once or twice to condition them and then try an air dodge. Marth can't do any of that with his recovery outside of saving his jump (which is still better for Zelda)

6) People would say the same thing about Zelda's double bair. The more of this I've written the I more I've realized that Marth and Zelda have a lot of similarities that make her a frustrating opponent. The worst aspect of the matchup is Marth's dash and wave dash. Every character has a spamming option. Condition them to think they're safe and punish.

TLDR; Unless you are the best there are many players who are better than you. They were all in your position at one point or another. Acknowledge them, learn from them, and get in the lab.

 

[Angell]

1) If you are fighting a half decent player then you are doing something right. You just have to play better than them, it's as easy as that. What made characters "bad" in Melee? Bad matchups. Marth could destroy Zelda in Melee because more than half her moves were useless. Now she has tons of new tools and Marth got next to nothing. You have to out space them.

2) Zelda does well at mid and short range if you bait correctly and punish accordingly. Some of her moves have more disjoint and speed than people expect. You should be watching your opponents character more than your own in this position.

3) Our throws are DI mixups into kill options as well, one throw being a kill move in itself, and we have a better pummel. We also have Din's which we can throw people into for guaranteed followups. Someone should link Magus' post on comparative grab ranges, ours isn't that far from Marth's. (edit, I will http://i.imgur.com/Mrzepjz.png)

4) If you are dying at 80% to Marth you need to pick bigger stages and DI better. We can force Marth into f-smash syndrome soooo easily at over 100% where he's vulnerable to CC at low percents and terrified of lightning kicks at high percents.

5) The distance of our teleport didn't shorten in 3.5, but we gained the ability to shorten from the air. That means edge canceled teleports. Mix it up for crying out loud. Do the reappearing hitbox once or twice to condition them and then try an air dodge. Marth can't do any of that with his recovery outside of saving his jump (which is still better for Zelda)

6) People would say the same thing about Zelda's double bair. The more of this I've written the I more I've realized that Marth and Zelda have a lot of similarities that make her a frustrating opponent. The worst aspect of the matchup is Marth's dash and wave dash. Every character has a spamming option. Condition them to think they're safe and punish.

TLDR; Unless you are the best there are many players who are better than you. They were all in your position at one point or another. Acknodwledge them, learn from them, and get in the lab.

So I played against that marth today and I have realized I have advanced significantly in the strategy department. I realized my initial assessment was way off. With one new change I went from regular 3-stocks to 1-stock low percent. I will now reveal what has put me so far foreward..... Play like a scared B*TCH! Zelda can actually beat marth if she never has to approach, which she never has to because of her fireball. While I don't think the match up is quite 55:45, I will say it's close to 60:40ish.

1. Agree
2. Kind of, she wins if she baits out a move, but one mistake at mid range means a ton of percent.
3. He would alway di my throws perfectly,but I would miss di his throws throwing him into fires helped me.
4. Agree
5. My teleport is one of the best parts of my game, marth is fast enough to cover almost all options. Because he is such a good player and he expects me to play well, doing really stupid things seems to work well.
6. Well, the double fair is faster and more reliable imo, but from the rest I agree.

Thanks for all your help, I have really improved fter mulling over a lot of the things you said. you rock man!

 

[WhiteCrow]

1. Agree
2. Kind of, she wins if she baits out a move, but one mistake at mid range means a ton of percent.
3. He would alway di my throws perfectly,but I would miss di his throws throwing him into fires helped me.
4. Agree
5. My teleport is one of the best parts of my game, marth is fast enough to cover almost all options. Because he is such a good player and he expects me to play well, doing really stupid things seems to work well.
6. Well, the double fair is faster and more reliable imo, but from the rest I agree.

Thanks for all your help, I have really improved fter mulling over a lot of the things you said. you rock man!

No worries man, I hope I didn't/don't sound too critical. On opponent's DIing throws correctly, mix it up. If you're at the ledge pummeling, with your back to the ledge, expect them to DI for back throw. Then do a fast forward throw and catch them DIing hard in with a re-grab into an instant back throw. If they DI for another forward throw (because they think they might get chain grabbed) then they'll have mediocre DI for the back throw. And if they DI the back throw (expecting the DI trap) they're still off stage and you can edge guard. Things get really fun with Din's in play.

You make a really good point that teleport isn't as useful against Marth because he can cover so many of it's locations with a nair, a counter, double fairs, or his super fast movement options. Marth's double fair has more utility than Zelda's double bair, but our option is a kill move and is better OoS.

 

[TimeSmash]

As far as throws go, I rarely use Up Throw but because of my sparing use, I was able to do Up Throw into Upair and it was the easiest thing. Mixing it up can be super important!! A lot of it has to do with habituation, which your opponent will get used to and punish. Obviously not all habituation is bad, but if you have options A and B in a situation, don't always go for option A. When you use B you can nail a hit or get a positional advantage. Alternatively, you could keep using A or B, and then use the other after the person's been conditioned into getting used to one of them, like I described above