I think we're all for getting one simple thing

[Takehiko]

Isn't it amazing that all these years of having to deal with op characters through other means (Project M, Balanced brawl, etc) will finally be able to be fixed officially? Once certain things within a character seems to be overpowered then just like other games (SF, UMVC3 , etc) will be able to be fixed. To me, this makes Smash an official fighter in it's own right able to stand among other fighters.

Am I the only one excited about this ability of the WiiU?

 

[Substitution]

It depends, will we need it?
We don't have the game yet, we don't know if a character's broken yet.
Though if there is, great. This will be useful.

 

[Superyoshiom]

Sakurai isn't about nerfing OP characters, he just wants to highlight strengths of other characters. Don't know what this means for the likes of Meta Knight and Ice Climbers.

 

[Morbi]

It depends, will we need it?
We don't have the game yet, we don't know if a characters broken yet.
Though if there is, great. This will be useful.

Yes, there will be broken characters... there is always a broken character. It is literally impossible to balance everything before release. It also depends on the specific meta-game, because again, some characters like Meta Knight are not over-powered in FFA. Obviously that is a different situation in 1 v 1 games. The point being, once millions start playing the game, we will come across something the developers had not. It is simple, really.

 

[DaDavid]

I'll just have to say that at least Sakurai seems to be crafting the newcomers with a lot of concern for balance. Rosalina could easily be a huge OP-potential, but her big and floaty properties are going to make her relatively easy to kill. Little Mac is an on-ground powerhouse but seems like he won't be able to handle himself at all in the air. Wii Fit Trainer seems like a fairly average character with strong melee attacks and only one ranged-attack which doesn't seem to viable, and Villager... Actually I fear for Villager. His recovery options seem mediocre, none of his attacks seem particularly strong except for that very easy to see coming tree and he's probably pretty light. Though his ability to catch seemingly all projectiles will definitely help him against those that have 'em.

 

[Souless_shadow]

I'll just have to say that at least Sakurai seems to be crafting the newcomers with a lot of concern for balance. Rosalina could easily be a huge OP-potential, but her big and floaty properties are going to make her relatively easy to kill. Little Mac is an on-ground powerhouse but seems like he won't be able to handle himself at all in the air. Wii Fit Trainer seems like a fairly average character with strong melee attacks and only one ranged-attack which doesn't seem to viable, and Villager... Actually I fear for Villager. His recovery options seem mediocre, none of his attacks seem particularly strong except for that very easy to see coming tree and he's probably pretty light. Though his ability to catch seemingly all projectiles will definitely help him against those that have 'em.

It seems every newcomer seems to have many advantages and disadvantages to them just the way any great fighting game should be.

 

[DaDavid]

It seems every newcomer seems to have many advantages and disadvantages to them just the way any great fighting game should be.

Exactly. I'm very excited to try them all out.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Mac did seem abit much though...also megaman did too in the 1 v 1 against mario.

But Eh...things change we will see.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Sakurai isn't about nerfing OP characters, he just wants to highlight strengths of other characters. Don't know what this means for the likes of Meta Knight and Ice Climbers.

A good bunch of character were nerfed from Melee to Brawl, so I'm still expecting some characters like Meta Knight and Snake to be nerfed, while I hope ICs won't be able to kill you from 0% anymore. Heck, we might even have our first nerf in Olimar's more limited Pikmin amount, though that's of course still to be confirmed. While it seems Sakurai is intending to mostly bring the less good characters up to higher standards, I do think we should expect a few nerfs too. I also expect the newcomers to get tweaked more so than veterans in patches, I can't imagine them hitting a home-run with all these completely new playstyles in one go.

Either way, I'm just psyched that I'll likely be able to read official Smash Bros patch notes, it makes me all giddy. It'll also keep the game fresh for quite some more time, though that's never been a problem for the franchise.

 

[mr.boombastic]

its going to be very exciting trying out all the newcomers when smash releases. hopefully balance patches will happen if a character is broken or if there is some sort of exploit.

 

[mimgrim]

I'll just have to say that at least Sakurai seems to be crafting the newcomers with a lot of concern for balance. Rosalina could easily be a huge OP-potential, but her big and floaty properties are going to make her relatively easy to kill.

Not necessarily. If she is going to be a heavy weight like I think she is, float =/= lightweight as weight is calculated through knock-back not fall speed. I could easily see a heavy yet floaty character being rather hard to kill.

 

[DaDavid]

Not necessarily. If she is going to be a heavy weight like I think she is, float =/= lightweight as weight is calculated through knock-back not fall speed. I could easily see a heavy yet floaty character being rather hard to kill.

Well I guess we don't have enough to know either way, but I doubt she'll end up being a heavy weight. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Poots]

megaman did too in the 1 v 1 against mario.

But Eh...things change we will see.

It might be worth pointing out that Bowser wasn't flinching from Mega Man's lemons in the little Mac trailer... but then again that could just be how Bowser is now... we NEED more info on this game!

I'm sure Sakurai will rebalance a few things after release, but I wouldn't doubt it if we get that one character who just never gets patched...

 

[mimgrim]

but I doubt she'll end up being a heavy weight.

Why not?

In the Mk games she has been in, for example, she has been put as a heavyweight character.

 

[stan423321]

I am not really sure if I want balance patches in my SSB.

From time to time, the only way that devs find around balance issues in games is complete redesign of some aspect of the gameplay. Let's look at Project M. I didn't play it, because I'm not importing/pirating NTSC game when the final version is supposed to get ported to PAL Brawl (and I think that the PM team could find a way around incomptaibility issues, but whatever). However, looking at the mod notes, I was sometimes quite disappointed. Nikita thrown out of Snake? Koopa Klaw replacing Flying Slam? Din's Fire getting a complete mechanical redesign? (I remember side Bs the most, but there are more of these.) I have played these characters because I liked these moves in the first place... Project M is kinda innocent, though, since you can unlaunch it.

Meanwhile, there's the thing known as Divekick. I'm not sure if it's a fighting game, but I sure like to play it with friends from time to time. Guess what, a patch for Divekick was recently announced. It won't be removable, it will replace the original on download servers, and it won't have an old mode switch. And it does more than changing numbers and adding functionality updates. For example, there is one character which had an absurdally gimmicky normal attack and slightly more normal gauge-powered air attack. The patch, among other things, switches it around, leaving us with what even developers consider "an almost new character". And the old game will be gone. Unless you crack the old version, or keep your device offline, or something. But these are workarounds.

I have no problem missing an infinite combo from old version or Falcon Punch doing 20% of damage instead of 33%, but if pre-advertised features of characters get removed and replaced by balance patches, screw this.

 

[DaDavid]

Why not?

In the Mk games she has been in, for example, she has been put as a heavyweight character.

I'm not really sure why that would have any bearing here. She was heavyweight because of her size, which kind of has to dictate which karts she can ride.

That said, I'll admit that the only reason I can say that I don't see her being a heavy-weight is because I imagine Sakurai/someone working on balance understands that to make her tough to kill when she has the incredible range that Luma provides would be kind of ridiculous. We have Mewtwo as a precedent for a big character that's easy to kill, which I think is more relevant than her appearances in kart.

 

[stan423321]

That said, I'll admit that the only reason I can say that I don't see her being a heavy-weight is because I imagine Sakurai/someone working on balance understands that to make her tough to kill when she has the incredible range that Luma provides would be kind of ridiculous. We have Mewtwo as a precedent for a big character that's easy to kill, which I think is more relevant than her appearances in kart.

Let me add another reason: Sakurai outright said she's currently functionally light in one PotD comment. So, uh.

 

[DaDavid]

Let me add another reason: Sakurai outright said she's currently functionally light in one PotD comment. So, uh.

Did he say light specifically in that pic? I remember him mentioned her floaty-ness, not her weight. One sec...

Well there it is. I are dumb haha.

 

[mimgrim]

Let me add another reason: Sakurai outright said she's currently functionally light in one PotD comment. So, uh.

I'm not prepared to take what he said there to mean what you think it means. It could be very well that by "light" he means floaty, hence the anti-gravity effect. It could be he judges the weight class differently then what the competitive scene does, I was never sure if the weigh weight is judge by the competitive scene was ever official or not.

 

[mr.boombastic]

i see rosalina being light and floaty making her easy to kill. they could get away with making her middleweight but i highly doubt shes going to be a heavy character

 

[Ulti-Bman]

If this game is more balanced than the other Smash games, then that would technically make this game the most competitive Smash game yet. Here me out on this. It's undeniable that having fairer matchups between more characters makes the game less cheap, correct? Well, if Sakurai manages to keep the tier-list either in check or practically non-existent, then that solves the problem with broken characters all together. Now then, all that's left would be the general mechanics. Obviously, Melee's mechanics are more competitive than Brawl's. However, what people forget is that it's not because Melee's fast, but rather because Brawl is slow. This means that faster =/= more competitive. It also means that as long as a game REACHES a speed suitable for fighting, it's in the clear. The game will obviously not be a fast as Melee, but is that a bad thing? As long as it reaches a reasonable speed, it doesn't really matter. In fact, you can argue that Melee's speed is a little TOO fast. I personally find it difficult to implement nice air game in Melee, for example. If what Sakurai is saying is true, and if what is shown in Little Mac's trailer is to be taken seriously, then the speed seems to emphasize fluidity of techniques and easier controls. At least that's what I take from it. There also seems to be fixes to scrappy mechanics such as ledge controls, which now require more skill rather than luck and cheap tricks to handle. I don't know about you guys, but I feel it's safe to be optimistic about this being the most competitive Smash. I know I'll get massive backlash from such a bold claim, but I'm not afraid to speak my mind....at least not on the Internet.

 

[DaDavid]

If this game is more balanced than the other Smash games, then that would technically make this game the most competitive Smash game yet. Here me out on this. It's undeniable that having fairer matchups between more characters makes the game less cheap, correct? Well, if Sakurai manages to keep the tier-list either in check or practically non-existent, then that solves the problem with broken characters all together. Now then, all that's left would be the general mechanics. Obviously, Melee's mechanics are more competitive than Brawl's. However, what people forget is that it's not because Melee's fast, but rather because Brawl is slow. This means that faster =/= more competitive. It also means that as long as a game REACHES a speed suitable for fighting, it's in the clear. The game will obviously not be a fast as Melee, but is that a bad thing? As long as it reaches a reasonable speed, it doesn't really matter. In fact, you can argue that Melee's speed is a little TOO fast. I personally find it difficult to implement nice air game in Melee, for example. If what Sakurai is saying is true, and if what is shown in Little Mac's trailer is to be taken seriously, then the speed seems to emphasize fluidity of techniques and easier controls. At least that's what I take from it. There also seems to be fixes to scrappy mechanics such as ledge controls, which now require more skill rather than luck and cheap tricks to handle. I don't know about you guys, but I feel it's safe to be optimistic about this being the most competitive Smash. I know I'll get massive backlash from such a bold claim, but I'm not afraid to speak my mind....at least not on the Internet.

I'd like this more than once if I could.

Once because I agree with the sentiment and twice because you made me laugh at the end. Good on you.

 

[The Real Gamer]

If this game is more balanced than the other Smash games, then that would technically make this game the most competitive Smash game yet.

Umm... no.

Balanced =/= competitive. Melee isn't balanced at all and is one of the deepest and most technical fighting games of all time. UMVC3 isn't balanced at all and is an extremely competitive game.

Balance is an important factor yes but it's hardly the deciding factor when it comes to how competitive a game is. Rock Paper Scissors is as balanced of a game as you can play since it always gives both participants an equal chance of winning... Do you consider it the most competitive game of all time?

 

[stan423321]

I'm not prepared to take what he said there to mean what you think it means. It could be very well that by "light" he means floaty, hence the anti-gravity effect. It could be he judges the weight class differently then what the competitive scene does, I was never sure if the weigh weight is judge by the competitive scene was ever official or not.

Assuming no translators mess with us, weight = weight.

On SSBB dojo, Wolf is said to be the heaviest of Star Fox reps.
Guess what, he is.
But Fox falls faster.

/research

 

[pitthekit]

Speed means nothing to computer players.
However due to human flaws speed does effect the game.
If the game is too fast: we have less time to think so instead we do attack patterns.
If the game is too slow: we have a lot of time to think and act... To bad we find a slow fighting game to be boring.

Sakurai has stated that smash 4 will be a mix of brawl and melee In terms of speed.


Also I hope sakurai fixes hitstun cancel technique in brawl.. Ruined the game.

 

[Ulti-Bman]

Umm... no.

Balanced =/= competitive. Melee isn't balanced at all and is one of the deepest and most technical fighting games of all time. UMVC3 isn't balanced at all and is an extremely competitive game.

Balance is an important factor yes but it's hardly the deciding factor when it comes to how competitive a game is. Rock Paper Scissors is as balanced of a game as you can play since it always gives both participants an equal chance of winning... Do you consider it the most competitive game of all time?

I was sort of referring to the balance of the characters COUPLED WITH the fairness of the mechanics, as indicated by my post. Then again, I assume that a competitive fighting game is one that promotes skill and playability in a manner which best suits competition. I don't think a competitive game has to necessarily be "deep", but rather reliant on skill rather than luck-based or cheap mechanics, basically a "fair game" that sticks closest to answering the classic question "Who is better?". I feel this is something Melee succeeds in, but isn't done in the best manner possible. This is where "playability" comes into play. I feel that more options would allow for a fairer (and most importantly, more fun) experience necessary in any good fighting game. I think tier lists in general reduce the competitiveness of a game, because it limits options (FOX ONLY! FINAL DESTINATION!) and fails to let players express themselves to the fullest. I think by balancing characters, players can answer the "Who is better?" question in more unique, and stylized ways. Also, things like l-canceling indicate scrappy mechanics and fails to "tighten" controls. In my opinion, tighter controls may weaken the layer of depth, but it adds focus to the more important aspects of the gameplay. The new ledge mechanics are an example of what I'm getting at. They also provide more options to control your air game, while at the same time eliminates cheap tactics, and equalizes character opportunity.

 

[dimensionsword64]

Isn't it amazing that all these years of having to deal with op characters through other means (Project M, Balanced brawl, etc) will finally be able to be fixed officially? Once certain things within a character seems to be overpowered then just like other games (SF, UMVC3 , etc) will be able to be fixed. To me, this makes Smash an official fighter in it's own right able to stand among other fighters.

Am I the only one excited about this ability of the WiiU?

Do you mean patches?

 

[PLATINUM7]

I am not really sure if I want balance patches in my SSB.

From time to time, the only way that devs find around balance issues in games is complete redesign of some aspect of the gameplay. Let's look at Project M. I didn't play it, because I'm not importing/pirating NTSC game when the final version is supposed to get ported to PAL Brawl (and I think that the PM team could find a way around incomptaibility issues, but whatever). However, looking at the mod notes, I was sometimes quite disappointed. Nikita thrown out of Snake? Koopa Klaw replacing Flying Slam? Din's Fire getting a complete mechanical redesign? (I remember side Bs the most, but there are more of these.) I have played these characters because I liked these moves in the first place... Project M is kinda innocent, though, since you can unlaunch it.

Meanwhile, there's the thing known as Divekick. I'm not sure if it's a fighting game, but I sure like to play it with friends from time to time. Guess what, a patch for Divekick was recently announced. It won't be removable, it will replace the original on download servers, and it won't have an old mode switch. And it does more than changing numbers and adding functionality updates. For example, there is one character which had an absurdally gimmicky normal attack and slightly more normal gauge-powered air attack. The patch, among other things, switches it around, leaving us with what even developers consider "an almost new character". And the old game will be gone. Unless you crack the old version, or keep your device offline, or something. But these are workarounds.

I have no problem missing an infinite combo from old version or Falcon Punch doing 20% of damage instead of 33%, but if pre-advertised features of characters get removed and replaced by balance patches, screw this.

I doubt balance patches would change character mechanics to such an extent that they are a 'new character'. If you really want to play older versions a simple solution would be having an option to select what version you play or being able to delete balance patches (which I think you can do with 3DS games, but you still need the patches to play online).

 

[Renji64]

I'm hoping some people get buffed in smash 4 like captain falcon.

 

[LancerStaff]

I can't believe nobody noticed the error in the title.

I don't really see balance patches coming out past the one year mark because of how picky Sakurai is about balance and how he'll probably be working on something else by then. And Namco is basically the only team working on this. Their contract would probably run out at some point, right? I don't see much potential in these patches besides the obvious game-breakers.

 

[KokiriKory]

I can't believe nobody noticed the error in the title.

I don't really see balance patches coming out past the one year mark because of how picky Sakurai is about balance and how he'll probably be working on something else by then. And Namco is basically the only team working on this. Their contract would probably run out at some point, right? I don't see much potential in these patches besides the obvious game-breakers.

More than anything, Nintendo (iwata) has emphasized their opposition to shipping a title they see as incomplete. When Smash comes out, barring a glaring imbalance that snuck through testing, we will be getting the final product.

 

[LancerStaff]

More than anything, Nintendo (iwata) has emphasized their opposition to shipping a title they see as incomplete. When Smash comes out, barring a glaring imbalance that snuck through testing, we will be getting the final product.

That too. But still, if Nintendo was going to make balance patches for anything, it'd be Smash.

 

[FalKoopa]

Just saying, if this devolves into a general discussion thread, it will get locked.

Keep the discussion about balance patches (which seems to be the original intent of the OP) please.

About balance patches, I'm unsure. Sakurai is evidently putting a lot more effort into balancing the game this time, so I think it's unlikely that we will have a Meta Knight situation again.

 

[smashbro29]

We may not have an Meta Knight situation but Nintendo is all about patches and DLC these days and Smash is their biggest game for a very long time and a game that will sell well beyond that of the actual console so I expect balance and DLC.

 

[Zonderion]

I don't see balance patches happening unless there is a major flaw that somehow got past development, or there is a major outcry.

 

[DaDavid]

Why do people think balance patches are so improbable?

Nintendo's belief that they ship out a complete product has no bearing on their willingness to deliver post-release content, which is evidenced by the several Nintendo games which have delivered DLC and Sakurai himself has stated he finds importance in patching after the game releases. Honestly, why focus on the one general idea that they've expressed when there's evidence and quotes from the director of the specific game in question to suggest that patches are at least likely.

 

[Zonderion]

Why do people think balance patches are so improbable?

Nintendo's belief that they ship out a complete product has no bearing on their willingness to deliver post-release content, which is evidenced by the several Nintendo games which have delivered DLC and Sakurai himself has stated he finds importance in patching after the game releases. Honestly, why focus on the one general idea that they've expressed when there's evidence and quotes from the director of the specific game in question to suggest that patches are at least likely.

True, but he said that he only patch if its needed. He's not going to create unnecessary patches as he is concerned with the multiplayer option between different versions. He doesn't want to have patches just because their is a big movement against a certain character, at least that's what I am understanding now.

We aren't saying that he is opposed to patches, but that they aren't going to be a reoccurring thing.

http://nintendoeverything.com/sakurai-on-how-smash-bros-wii-u3ds-came-to-be-not-opposed-to-dlc-patching-why-villagertrainer-are-in-more/

So even my earlier statement about a patch for a major outcry is probably wrong.

 

[DaDavid]

True, but he said that he only patch if its needed. He's not going to create unnecessary patches as he is concerned with the multiplayer option between different versions. He doesn't want to have patches just because their is a big movement against a certain character, at least that's what I am understanding now.

We aren't saying that he is opposed to patches, but that they aren't going to be a reoccurring thing.

http://nintendoeverything.com/sakurai-on-how-smash-bros-wii-u3ds-came-to-be-not-opposed-to-dlc-patching-why-villagertrainer-are-in-more/

So even my earlier statement about a patch for a major outcry is probably wrong.

Right, so I'm not really following why you're saying what you're saying haha. Of course he'll only patch if "needed." All patches are meant to fix things that "need" fixing. All he's saying is that he won't necessarily just take people's feedback and then get to work "fixing" it, but rather he'll look at the issue and decide if he agrees with whatever the criticism was.That to me suggests he's very open to patches, but just wont all that common which the OP in no way suggests.

 

[Zonderion]

Right, so I'm not really following why you're saying what you're saying haha. Of course he'll only patch if "needed." All patches are meant to fix things that "need" fixing. All he's saying is that he won't necessarily just take people's feedback and then get to work "fixing" it, but rather he'll look at the issue and decide if he agrees with whatever the criticism was.That to me suggests he's very open to patches, but just wont all that common which the OP in no way suggests.

Exactly. Just less confusing than what I wrote.

 

[Takehiko]

Exactly. Just less confusing than what I wrote.

TLDR: Sakurai about that gangsta ish and he don't support jabroni's talkin about patches when skill is the band-aid needed.
i.e. SF4 Sagat. The Japanese didn't have a problem with anything except the strength of Sagat's ultra. Other players complained about everything reguarding sagat, and they nerfed him to the point where he wasn't strong enough for competitive play just to keep the community happy. So I support Sakurai in looking over matters first because people did all that complaing for the patches then afterwards complained that SF4 wasn't as good as SF3. (Think Brawl vs. Melee argument. Just with patches and fickle fans)