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I need some basic tips for edge-guarding as Shiek.

Genhris

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
19
First of all, thank you for looking at my thread. I am a relatively new Smash 4 player with no competitive experience beyond For Glory. I've been trying to improve by comparing my matches to tournament matches and I found one big thing that was missing from my game - edge guarding. I can't seem to do ledge trumps with any amount of consistency and whenever I do try to edge guard hanging from the ledge, I can't quite get exactly where I need to go. Can anyone give me some tips or strategies that they used to improve their offstage and edge-guarding game? Thank you.
 

pokio55

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Messages
73
Location
New York
NNID
Pokio55
Sheik can go quite far offstage, and you can really push the limits (especially with bouncing fish). You can practice with CPU or I could even help you to see what you are doing wrong.
Anyway, I highly recommend watching this http://youtu.be/6pj90aj0ddQ
This channel has helped me a lot with sheik and what actually brought me to smashboards! I hope I helped and welcome to the smashboards community!
 

Ping Warrior

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 18, 2015
Messages
39
Location
Kansas City, MO
NNID
Daspammerguy
3DS FC
2793-1351-4493
General offstage game i like to push myself to stay off the ledge/ground for as long as I can go by doublejumping, bouncing fish into the stage, up b and wall jumps or jumping out as far as I can then come back to the stage.
For edgeguarding, I would practice a little bit with a CPU to the point where you can get it most or all of the time from 40+% (too low a % and hitting them which brings back their Up-B actually helps them recover, but does let you do some damage if you're fine with that much)

whenever I catch someone staying high offstage to come back, I stand around the ledge, double jump up and bouncing fish them.
when their going low, I either Runoff-Wallbouncing fish (hitting the wall lets you delay the second kick as long as you like) or I runoff fair/bair.
With customs I get a decent amount of kills by throwing gravity grenades down and stagespiking with them

Practice offstage shortened/extended/reverse bouncing fish a lot. It's really embarrassing to suicide like that.

to practice reverse bouncing fish, try running offstage and doing it immediately. this will bring you right onto the stage like nothing ever happened. then dash to the other side and do it there. keep the loop going for as long as possible and it should become muscle memory.

also never be afraid of jumping to literally the blast zone or magnifying glass to gimp someone. bouncing fish sends you backwards and up if you hit them, so it can auto recover for you and sheik's Up-B goes farther than it may seem.

Once you have that offstage game down, you'll be the biggest monster offstage.

EDIT: Runoff nair is also a killer. I made a Falcon player really salt one time because offstage nair killed him at 50%. You can fastfall with the nair to really catch some clutch gimps, but it's a little risky if you don't jump back fast enough
 
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Genhris

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
19
Thank you so much for posting on my thread! I really appreciate any help I can get. Thank you Pokio for the welcome and the video, it did help put some things into perspective with my Shiek game. Also, thank you Ping for the ideas to practice offstage movement. The offstage reverse Bouncing Fish sounds like it could be a great mixup to an attack. Hopefully my skills will improve with the advice you guys have given me. Thank you!

Genhris
 

Elfamis

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 3, 2015
Messages
16
Location
Dominican Republic
NNID
elfamis
Another thing to take in account: needles. If you do not want to go hunting just throw needles. Sometimes I use them and you've be surprised how they catch of guard when they are far of the stage.

Needles and bouncing fish or Raising needles and bouncing fish, I like it a lot.
 

Illuminose

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 6, 2015
Messages
671
Bouncing fish can be used to cover lots of different off-stage trajectories. Jump bouncing fish for high recoveries, drop zone bouncing fish for opponents under the ledge, bouncing fish to the stage for recovering opponents and gives more flexibility in where you let out the kick, and raw bouncing fish at ledge level for horizontal recoveries. Something else you can do with bouncing fish that I like is positioning yourself for edgeguarding, like you can bouncing fish from on the stage into a forward air to get to off-stage opponents efficiently as a movement option. Pros of bouncing fish are sheer knockback and the different options you can cover, biggest con is that you can potentially give up huge positional advantage if you whiff so you kinda have to be confident in it.

As far as aerials are concerned, they each kinda have different uses. Drop zone fair is good to cover lower recoveries, standard sh/full hop fair works for higher recoveries. Ledge drop bair is also an option that can be really good positionally in terms of where the hitbox comes out, but there's some lag in getting off the ledge so it's a slower option. Nair tends to work well because of the lingering hitbox. You can do a falling nair or even a rising nair by running off-stage and rising back up to the stage with a nair. Aerials are less powerful in terms of kb in general, as in they won't be killing as early/sending opponents as far away. Usually do the job to rack up damage though and knock opponents with worse recoveries plus have significantly less commitment than bouncing fish, which are some pretty obvious major pros.

Ledge trumping is pretty good as ledge trump -> bair pretty much always works and puts them in a poor position for recovery/leaves them open to a punish at the ledge if that's what you want to go for. Obvious con is they can buffer a getup option to avoid it, though you can do the mixup which is feint a ledge trump and punish their roll, getup attack, or jump which you can read/react to depending on which option they pick.

Burst Grenade is really good as a safe tool to pressure/limit recoveries. You can position the nade basically anywhere off-stage to cover various recovery positions. Another thing you can do is force an option from the ledge with Burst Grenade and actually trap the normal getup by forcing them to shield, which gives you a free dash grab. If they don't shield, you get a free bouncing fish, and other ledge getup options are much more punishable if they pick those. By far the safest option though it's a bit easier to avoid from what I've seen.

Aerial needles are stellar to get rid of jumps and hit certain recoveries, and can even combo into bouncing fish at high prevents. Trajectory is limited but needles are still really effective for edgeguarding in general. You can also use standard grounded needles to cover horizontal recoveries and force opponents to either air dodge through (which can make it more difficult to recover depending on the character or recover high). Basically, the horizontal trajectory/range is really good. This is a tool you'll want to use often.
 
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