I need advice fighting against Lucario

[Musishin]

My friend just got sm4sh for Christmas and he's been playing a bit for the past couple days. He mains Lucario and has been since Brawl. He's not a competitive player at all, he mainly likes to play for fun, which is fine. It's fun playing item matches once in a while with him and some friends. He knows I like to play competitively though, so occasionally we will also have "serious" fights where we both choose our mains and play best 2 out of 3.

I've had Sm4sh for about ~3 weeks now and I've been trying my best training with Peach in training mode, cpu's, and online with other people. I love using her, but I just cannot beat his Lucario. He will win pretty much every time with him and it's very frustrating when I've spent so many hours practicing with Peach, only to get pummeled by someone who's played for less than 2 days.

He rolls backwards a lot and charges up his aura sphere. I just don't know how to approach him. Also, he'll almost always reach 150%+ and I still won't be able land a smash on him because I haven't learned how to deal with all the rolling. And even if I do land a smash on him at that percentage, unless I hit him with my forward air somehow, he'll STILL live. Basically he mostly tries to get as far away from me as he can and charges up his aura sphere. If I try to get close he either has the option to throw his aura spheres at me or use his ridiculous, aura buffed, side B attack. It's honestly really discouraging that such defensive gameplay is so rewarding to him and hurtful to me.

I don't want to blame it on the game though, I know I still have a lot to learn, but I need help. Any advice/tips would be appreciated.

 

[Nose]

a farmer asks for help, but only describes how the wheat gives him problems

the farmer must provide his methods for cutting the grain to receive adequate help

 

[Musishin]

Sorry, I should have known too add that.

I try to mix things up to remain unpredictable as I try to approach him. He almost always tries to roll backwards away from me so I try dash attacks, but I miss most of the time. Down smash is no good too since he loves to get out of my reach. If I try to approach from the air he'll roll and throw the aura sphere as I land which I have to shield immediately, which by then he is already starting to roll away. I tried using turnips too, but I feel like I don't know how to use them effectively. Sometimes he'll counter the turnips and land the hit on me. I try throwing it towards him and predict the roll out of the aura charge so I can go in for the dash attack, nair, or grab, but he's able to act quickly enough to roll away and use his side B to hit me before I can get close enough to him. I've tried predicting a roll towards me too, but again, he ends up using his side B. If I come in and shield predicting that instead, he'll side B, which pushes me too far away to grab, and then roll away. If he's in the air, he'll either use his up B to get away from me/, or counter if I try to fair, uair, or nair.

The only moves I've really been able to successfully kill him with is my side smash or forward air. Both of which are too slow to be reliable on him.

 

[Nose]

from what you're saying, he is able to punish you because you are committing to your approaches. if all he does is like to roll and punish you for whiffing, then you simply chase him. don't throw out an attack as you are coming near him, just continue to follow him. you keep your momentum, you don't whiff, you simply follow him. eventually his movement will either become so predictable that a grab, nair, fair, etc. is a solid option for you, or he will be compelled to act more aggressively, which you can punish accordingly.

there's no reason trying to fight an opponent who isn't willing to meet you halfway. you must come to him, implement pressure, and deliver the punishment on his doorstep to cause him to come out of his defensive fort.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

To build on what @ N Nose said, have you tried predicting the roll i.e. running after him and, rather than attempting to attack him as soon as you get in range, carry on running and using Grab or Ground Floating Nair at the spot where he rolls? You mention you try to Dash Attack him but it misses most of the time - why not try following Lucario to where he's rolling and THEN use Dash Attack or Peach Bomber? You can even score a Fair if your timing is good.

How about setting up a Float at head height when you're at a close range and pressuring him with a Floating Dair? This is good if your opponent is getting near the edge of the stage because in the event that they try to roll behind you, you can follow them as they roll and use your multi-hitting Dair to catch them in the roll end lag. If you're at a distance and he jumps up and Side B's, airdodge to the ground or jump out the way...the trick then is to make sure he doesn't throw out Aura Sphere instead!


Next time you have a match, try focusing on punishing what your opponent is doing. What moves are they using? Do they have any noticeable habits that you could take advantage of? When you're fighting them, is the move you're about to use actually going to hit or are you putting yourself in a position to be punished? Don't try to Dash Attack someone if you know they're going to simply roll away - follow the roll and use it then!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbEP0PUqnUM

At 5:35 there's a section on punishing rolls, might be helpful?

Edit: 10:10 is worth watching as well

Some opponents I've come up against are very roll-happy and the trick is to punish them for these habits by following where they are going to roll to and then attacking them where they ARE going to be, as opposed to where they WERE. This is easier said than done rolls/shields etc. are immensely strong in Smash 4.


As for more Lucario-related things, this MU is a tricky one and is only exacerbated by the difficulty of landing a kill on Lucario and Lucario getting absurdly strong at high percents. I personally approach with a Turnip in hand but that's provided I can pull one safely without getting hit by Aura Sphere/Force Palm. Turnips are useful for leading to follow ups, punishing rolls/attacking OoS from a distance or for covering any aerial approaches. Floating Nair him if he tries to Up + B recover at the ledge or on stage if he goes for onstage instead (this is mainly a matter of predicting where he's going to go as at high percents his recovery is stupid and very hard to punish).

Keep at it and good luck!

 

[Musishin]

Thanks a lot guys, this is incredibly helpful! I'll get to work for hopefully better results next time.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Lucario is slow and has lots of lag on his attacks and Low priority without Aura

You have to be aggressive at first and either score the kill or go into defensive mode. Whats interesting about Lucario is that his extreme speed recovery is almost too good. By that I mean the one I fought ended up using it into the stage alot and not the ledge.

Took me a minute since I have a habit of edge guarding but Instead I tried to keep baiting him into using it on stage. The landing lag is huge enough so you just need to be in the middle of the stage to punish.

Get him off stage and pressure with turnips.

Also play some mind games and see if you can trick him into using his counter. They seem to love their counter which is super punishable.