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I need a Sheik killer

Thamauturge

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 6, 2011
Messages
166
Location
Stokesdale, North Carolina
Sheik is one of my least favorite people to fight in the game. I don't understand it, but my best characters just seem to have so much difficulty getting around Sheik, even if they are being played as by someone whom I can otherwise beat a rather often amount of the time.

I've lost a tournament match three times because of a Sheik player, though one of those people (Redd) was so good that I don't think that I'd have had any chance no matter who he ended up picking lol.

My problem against Sheik is that my three main characters are Captain Falcon, Marth and Falco. I feel like I have a good-great CF user, good Marth but a mediocre Falco (I fail to follow up on Shines decently). This puts a damper in the matchup since Sheik seems so good against the two characters that I feel strongest with.

I've started using two other characters frequently; Roy and Dedede. Who out of those five characters would I have the best shot training as a devoted Sheik slayer?
 

Fortress

Smash Master
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Oct 2, 2013
Messages
3,097
Location
Kalispell, MT
A lot of Sheik players start off their combos (depending on character picks, of course) with a down-throw, a down-tilt, or if you're wide open enough to get caught by one, a forward-tilt. You can always dash dance more often to fake out a Sheik player, and attempt to counter with a grab of your own. Against Sheik, you're going to want to use movement more to your advantage than rushing straight in and creating openings for the Sheik player. Though Sheik has an advantage over C. Falcon, Marth's range and sheer power should be able to make quick work of Sheik.

Sheik, overall, is a character with a large assortment of very weak attacks that string together very well. Crouch cancelling is going to be your best friend here. I can't tell you how many times our Marth player has simply crouch cancelled into a Counter to beat out my jab-cancelled combo starters. The only think you have to be afraid of when crouch cancelling Sheik is the Sheik player anticipating that, and getting you in a grab... but, you should expect that Sheik player to go for that grab, anyway, so baiting out the grab should be pretty easy. Good DI will also go a long way in the matchup, to keep you out of d-throw chains and tilt locks/carries.

Off-stage, if Sheik has you on the defensive, you'll want to watch out for f-air assuming you're caught in the air above-stage getting a lot of hangtime. Sheik's d-tilt can scoop you up and lift you right up into grab range, which can lead into f-air, so try and recover low if you can against a Sheik player. However, if you are recovering low, Sheik has more than a few options; a long-lasting and powerful sex kick in n-air to push you far away, and a lengthy hitbox and good trajectory in b-air to go for stage-spikes. If your tech game is good, that shouldn't be a huge problem, and might be a big boon to you, but a lot of experienced Sheik players are not afraid to simply fall off of the ledge with a n-air, and can make it back most of the time, too.

As for off-stage mindgames, Sheik's got her wall-cling in her arsenal. It's a niche technique to begin with, and even more situational depending on the stage pick, but can really make you reconsider your own recovery options while she's performing it. Just remember that Sheik has the same options out of wall-cling that she would while just jumping off of the stage, and prepare accordingly; for f-air if recovering high, and n-air/b-air if recovering low.
 
D

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Sheik is one of my least favorite people to fight in the game.
I'm a dedicated sheik player. i should be going to visit greensboro sometime in the next few weeks. we can just do some free play, maybe all you need is more practice.
 

foxygrandpa

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
414
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Long Island
sheik vs captain falcon is in sheiks favor, not by much, but she can certainly play off his weaknesses. Im not sure on the sheik marth matchup, but personally I would think its in sheiks favor. Altough, its very doable for marth if you can out distance her. Sheik falco is probably pretty even though, just make sure that you stay away from the edge and keep her in the neutral. Hope this helped.
 

NoLife

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Messages
161
Location
Ortonville MI
sheik wins the sheik marth MU and what i do to beat a sheik (doubt this will b helpful for u) is i ditto them seeing that i am a marth/sheik player and let me tell u sheik/sheik is a hell of a lot easier than marth/sheik
 

RedEyesWhiteSwaggin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
94
Sheik ***** CF in melee for two reasons: dthrow and CF's recovery. EVEN THEN the MU was not unwinnable (like a 60-30ishhh). This was basically because Falcon's combo game is so strong and Sheik's recovery is so ass. Sheik has lost BOTH OF THOSE THINGS. CF CAN sweetspot now and dthrow doesn't **** CF.

DI Sheik's throws down and away. This will insure she gets no follow ups of of dthrow. If she bthrows, YOU CAN REACT TO IT. DI bthrow behind her. Sheik get the majority of her damage off of throws, DI them right and she wont.

ALWAYS grab the ledge against sheik. No matter what, you can always refresh your ledge invincibility correctly and force her on stage which will guarantee you a free knee/ dair to knee.


Sheik does not win the Falco MU and she does worse in the Marth MU as she cannot kill. You have plenty of options against her.
 

RedEyesWhiteSwaggin

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Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
94
You wanna run that data by me one more time? Maybe tell me where you're coming up with that?​

Maybe you misunderstood me? I said Sheik does not win the Falco MU; you posted the MU chart stating that Falco goes even with Sheik. I see no disagreement here: going even in a MU is certainly not winning it...Also, since this chart was made, the meta has significantly favored spacies.

I said Sheik does worse in the Marth MU (compared to how she did in melee). You posted the chart showing that Sheik wins the Marth MU. I never said she lost it? I said she did worse than she did in melee.

This is not to mention that all of the matchups are from MELEE not PM. This also does not mention that these MUs are outdated, controversial, NOT official afaik, and from a WIKI page.​
 
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Fortress

Smash Master
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Kalispell, MT
Sheik and Marth have hardly changed since Melee. I'm going to ask you again; where are you coming up with "Sheik does not win against Falco" and "Sheik does worse against Marth than she does Falco"? I don't care where I get this chart from, you're not explaining why Sheik has two (apparently) unwinnable matchups in PM against two characters who have hardly changed. I want to know why you think Sheik has zero kill options in the Marth MU. Why don't you enthrall me?

Maybe I'm not understanding why you feel like this chart does not apply to PM, a mod in where the idea is to be more like Melee, in where the Melee top-tiers have been reverted to their Melee format.
 
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RedEyesWhiteSwaggin

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Jan 19, 2014
Messages
94
Sheik and Marth have hardly changed since Melee. I'm going to ask you again; where are you coming up with "Sheik does not win against Falco" and "Sheik does worse against Marth than she does Falco"? I don't care where I get this chart from, you're not explaining why Sheik has two (apparently) unwinnable matchups in PM against two characters who have hardly changed. I want to know why you think Sheik has zero kill options in the Marth MU. Why don't you enthrall me?

Maybe I'm not understanding why you feel like this chart does not apply to PM, a mod in where the idea is to be more like Melee, in where the Melee top-tiers have been reverted to their Melee format.
Wow bro, no need to be pretentious **** about it.

Lets go over this again. I said "Sheik does not win the Falco MU." You said its a 50-50 matchup. Going even in a MU is NOT winning it. WE AGREE. I think the MU is even or close to it.

Saying "Sheik does not win the Falco MU" does NOT mean "Sheik can never win against falco" nor does it mean "Sheik will always lose to Falco." It MEANS "Sheik does not have an advantageous MU against Falco."

Sorry dude, I don't know why you are misunderstanding me. If I say Fox wins a matchup, that means Fox has the advantage. It does not mean he will always win. It does not mean that the other character has an "unwinnable matchup" vs Fox.

No one mentioned any unwinnable matchups. Where on earth are you getting this.


Sheik does worse in Marth matchup in PM primarily due to the stagelist in PM. The average stage has a significantly larger side blast zone than the average stage in melee. PM Sheik in general has trouble killing. Her dthrow was significantly nerfed: this affects the matchup. The dthrow/bthrow mixup is NOT as good as melee dthrow. The matchup has not changed much since melee. Even with all these things, she still PROBABLY WINS THE MATCHUP.


Yes I did mention problems with the MU chart you linked. Sure its mostly accurate and can be used to get a general idea of the matchup and sure it can be used to approximate melee matchups in PM BUT:

-Its old. I'm pretty sure that one was 08/09. The most recent (official) one is from 2010 (http://i.imgur.com/hPrm2.png). Its FOUR years old and widely considered to have inaccuracies.

-Its by no means definitive. Matchups are controversial. Matchup charts have been largely abandoned because of this.

-You're chart is from a wiki. It is not official. It could be an exact copy of one of the official ones but it has no source/date/etc.
 

Fortress

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Wow bro, no need to be pretentious **** about it.
You must be new here.

tl;dr: phrase things better.

The way you word things comes across as 'X character beats Y character in matchup every time'. Just the way you're phrasing it. "Sheik does not win the Falco matchup and does worse against Marth" sounds like "Sheik does not win in the Falco matchup and does even worse than the previous matchup". I hope you can see how your phrasing is confusing. 'Does not win' does not come across as the same thing as 'does not lose'. It sounds like 'lose', rather than 'breaks even'.

Agreed on PM's stage selection strongly affecting the Sheik matchup. Wario Ware ****s Sheik up something fierce, and triangle stages like BF and Yoshi's Story are bad news for her in the Marth matchup.

However, I disagree with you when you say that Sheik cannot kill, at least at low percents. Sheik's got plenty of tools in her kit to deal with multiple character types; needlesnipes can gimp spacies at stupid-low percents, Marth's linear recovery can be beat out by good spacing and the proper aerials, which applies to most of the cast as well. She's got the killing potential in her u-air to deal with lighter characters, and incredible power in her f-air to garner kills at 'normal' percents (albeit, it has an extremely short range).

I disagree with most of what you've had to say in the "What to change in PM" thread in regards to mostly everything. Sheik's hard-hitting moves set her up for her incredible ability to play off-stage and follow through with harassment. A Sheik player who is relying only on those big-hitters to be the kill moves aren't using Sheik to her fullest potential. Your big beef is that she apparently lacks the ability to reliably finish off cast members at reasonable percentages, but you're not taking into account the fact that you can follow up one of those hard-hitting moves.

She also can't gimp the majority of the new characters (non melee characters).
Your other problem is that she can't reliably gimp the Brawl cast. Reeason being? Most of the Brawl cast are lightweights, floaties, or characters with overall stellar recovery games (Think Pit, D3, Snake (though linear), ROB). These are characters that you don't expect to go out and gimp. Go for ceiling kills. Sheik's got the moves to do it.

The way you word everything makes it sound like there's absolutely no reason to lose to Sheik, especially when you say things like:

The only reason people lose to her is because people would lose to that same person in melee.
Really? My main beef with anything you've had to say is that it doesn't seem like you've thought it out very clearly. Sheik's heavy attacks are just one part of her game, and you can't expect to win with them alone and not by using her off-stage abilities in tandem. You also can't hold it against Sheik for not being able to gimp a portion of the cast that the rest of the cast has trouble gimping.

As for the matchup chart; it's as accurate as anything you or I have said, and you know it. Sheik generally breaks even with Falco, and has an advantage over Marth.

RE-tl;dr: I don't think you know this character as well as you think you do.
 
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RedEyesWhiteSwaggin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
94
You must be new here.
07 actually. I avoid posting because forums are ****ty ways to communicate and smashboards is usually a bunch of egotistical effective 12 year olds comparing epenises.

tl;dr: phrase things better.

The way you word things comes across as 'X character beats Y character in matchup every time'. Just the way you're phrasing it. "Sheik does not win the Falco matchup and does worse against Marth" sounds like "Sheik does not win in the Falco matchup and does even worse than the previous matchup". I hope you can see how your phrasing is confusing. 'Does not win' does not come across as the same thing as 'does not lose'. It sounds like 'lose', rather than 'breaks even'.
I agree my initial statement could have been confusing. I take it you now understand they were meant to be separate statements about two different matchups. That being said, there should have been no way my second post could have been confused in the same way. I specifically separated my statements about the matchups and clarified that my statement about marth was in reference to how the MU was in melee and not related to how the Falco MU was. I stated that she does not win the Falco MU because I personally believe Falco has the advantage by +.5 or +1. There was also no reason for you to go crazy with this "unwinnable matchups" and "0 kill option" stuff.

Agreed on PM's stage selection strongly affecting the Sheik matchup. Wario Ware ****s Sheik up something fierce, and triangle stages like BF and Yoshi's Story are bad news for her in the Marth matchup.
Triangle stages are amazing for sheik and always have been. I actually think WW and YS are some of sheiks best stages as she can actually kill on these stages. Against Marth, you might be right, he definitely gains a lot from these stages too.

However, I disagree with you when you say that Sheik cannot kill, at least at low percents. Sheik's got plenty of tools in her kit to deal with multiple character types; needlesnipes can gimp spacies at stupid-low percents, Marth's linear recovery can be beat out by good spacing and the proper aerials, which applies to most of the cast as well. She's got the killing potential in her u-air to deal with lighter characters, and incredible power in her f-air to garner kills at 'normal' percents (albeit, it has an extremely short range).
Yes she still does well against the melee characters. She still gets ***** by fox tho. Needle gimps are nowhere near as good against the new characters. Many literally take 3-5 separate hits with needles to actually gimp. Some characters even are even helped by getting hit by needles like DK (if he is hit during his up b which is likely, you SDI up and up b again. Before Sheik can throw another needle he has received a large vertical boost from the start of his up b). I understand how you think her fair/bair/uair are strong KO moves. Compared to just about every character in PM, they are not. She kills later than peach for god's sake. Ivy's bair kills before Sheik's fair/bair. Ivy's bair is not designed to be a kill move. I can give you many more examples.

I disagree with most of what you've had to say in the "What to change in PM" thread in regards to mostly everything. Sheik's hard-hitting moves set her up for her incredible ability to play off-stage and follow through with harassment. A Sheik player who is relying only on those big-hitters to be the kill moves aren't using Sheik to her fullest potential. Your big beef is that she apparently lacks the ability to reliably finish off cast members at reasonable percentages, but you're not taking into account the fact that you can follow up one of those hard-hitting moves.
A dashattack/ftilt to fair at 100% meant death against most characters in melee (except maybe fox). This is no longer the case. Since everyone new has recovery better than fox in terms of distance (for the most part) sheik does not kill until much later. This is not helped by the wider stages in PM. A weak hit bair from the ledge was enough to gimp most characters in melee. In PM it will just get you up b'd.

Your other problem is that she can't reliably gimp the Brawl cast. Reeason being? Most of the Brawl cast are lightweights, floaties, or characters with overall stellar recovery games (Think Pit, D3, Snake (though linear), ROB). These are characters that you don't expect to go out and gimp. Go for ceiling kills. Sheik's got the moves to do it.
Again uair ranks near the bottom in terms of PM vertical kill moves. Also D3 and snake are some of the few characters she can gimp.

The way you word everything makes it sound like there's absolutely no reason to lose to Sheik, especially when you say things like:

The only reason people lose to her is because people would lose to that same person in melee.
What I mean is the only reason she is 3rd on the PM tier list (based on tourney winnings). There are a large amount of people who already play Sheik extremely well. What I am saying is her tourney winnings are inflated. What I said was unclear, I'm sorry I posted the same thought several places and did not give it enough context there.

Really? My main beef with anything you've had to say is that it doesn't seem like you've thought it out very clearly. Sheik's heavy attacks are just one part of her game, and you can't expect to win with them alone and not by using her off-stage abilities in tandem. You also can't hold it against Sheik for not being able to gimp a portion of the cast that the rest of the cast has trouble gimping.
The problem with not being able to gimp is that something she relies HEAVILY upon. If she kills later than her opponent and cannot gimp them, she has a problem. Not only that, but several characters outclass her off stage too (MK, ROB, etc). The only reason she can even contend with melee high tiers is because of her gimps. Fox Sheik would be 80-20 if she could not gimp.
 

Fortress

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There was also no reason for you to go crazy with this "unwinnable matchups" and "0 kill option" stuff.
I disagree, and nobody's being crazy. Calm down.

Triangle stages are amazing for sheik and always have been. I actually think WW and YS are some of sheiks best stages as she can actually kill on these stages. Against Marth, you might be right, he definitely gains a lot from these stages too.
Triangle stages are fine for Sheik provided her opponent (in this case, Marth) can't outrange her with one of their most powerful attacks at a distance at which it is most powerful. Yeah, the short blast lines are good for her f-air, but Marth's f-smash can demolish her at crazy-low percents even with the right DI. It's not a 'might-be-right' thing, Marth just is solid on those stages, and Sheik's shortcomings in recovery don't aid her. Though, Yoshi's Story does let her use wall jump > B-reversed needle cancel recoveries.

Yes she still does well against the melee characters. She still gets ***** by fox tho. Needle gimps are nowhere near as good against the new characters. Many literally take 3-5 separate hits with needles to actually gimp.
This isn't a flaw with the game though, and you keep coming across as if it is. The characters in Brawl have superb recovery games all around, and are generally hard to gimp by any standard. Meta Knight, Pit, DeDeDe, and ROB certainly aren't going to die by needlesnipe. It's just a part of the matchup, not really a flaw.

Some characters even are even helped by getting hit by needles like DK (if he is hit during his up b which is likely, you SDI up and up b again.
And anybody who's throwing needles at DK, Ganondorf, Ike, or whomever are making the wrong decision. Again, it's not a flaw, just something to not do in matchups.


A dashattack/ftilt to fair at 100% meant death against most characters in melee (except maybe fox). This is no longer the case. Since everyone new has recovery better than fox in terms of distance (for the most part) sheik does not kill until much later. This is not helped by the wider stages in PM. A weak hit bair from the ledge was enough to gimp most characters in melee. In PM it will just get you up b'd.
Again, you're talking Brawl characters, which traditionally (like you said) have amazing horizontal recovery game. This isn't a flaw like you keep insisting. Of course a simple b-air block on the ledge isn't going to kill a Pit player. You're much better off trying to ceiling them, setting them up above you where you can (such as the low-hanging parts of the platforms on Lylat) for up-smash sweetspots, throw into wavesash into it, as well, or try and get them in a poor position above you for a u-air. Horizontal kills aren't the only way to go, you've got an entire blast line above you. Characters like Pit generally have a good time coming back to you horizontally, but have a rough time coming down on a player waiting for them. Sheik's got the attacks to deal with it. Even if U-air is one of the weaker vertical kill moves in PM, it's one of Sheik's strongest, and a vital part of her moveset against a character like Pit.

The problem with not being able to gimp is that something she relies HEAVILY upon. If she kills later than her opponent and cannot gimp them, she has a problem. Not only that, but several characters outclass her off stage too (MK, ROB, etc). The only reason she can even contend with melee high tiers is because of her gimps. Fox Sheik would be 80-20 if she could not gimp.
Well then, it's a good thing she can still get gimps on a huge part of the roster, isn't it? It's a big part of her game, but it's not the only part of her game. PM's got characters that she simply can't contend with in that manner, but it's not a flaw. It's just a tougher matchup.
 

Fortress

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If I need to make it clear, I get what you're saying, and I agree with certain aspects of it; in PM, there's a disparity between the abilities of Sheik and a character like Pit, who has reliable kill attacks, a solid recovery, and attributes that weaken or outright nullify those of Sheik's. His attacks put on heavy damage quickly, and can kill, all while having a solid set of traits that make it hard for Sheik to utilize her moveset for what it's most often used for.
 

RedEyesWhiteSwaggin

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Jan 19, 2014
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And anybody who's throwing needles at DK, Ganondorf, Ike, or whomever are making the wrong decision. Again, it's not a flaw, just something to not do in matchups.
Needles are amazing against Ike and ganny. Hitting ike while he is charging/in the middle of his side b is basically a dead Ike. Hitting Ganny at the end of his down b/in his jump is also super good if you cannot get out there with an aerial. I was simply giving an example. I understand needles are not always the best option. I was saying that needles are effective against a small fraction of the cast compared to the large fraction of the cast they were in melee.

My three points about needles were: they are not nearly as good as they were in melee, it takes a silly amount of precise hits to gimp a lot of characters, and not only are they not as good, they actually help some characters! The last point here is showing an extreme and is not the majority of the point.

This isn't a flaw with the game though, and you keep coming across as if it is. The characters in Brawl have superb recovery games all around, and are generally hard to gimp by any standard. Meta Knight, Pit, DeDeDe, and ROB certainly aren't going to die by needlesnipe. It's just a part of the matchup, not really a flaw.

Again, it's not a flaw, just something to not do in matchups.

Again, you're talking Brawl characters, which traditionally (like you said) have amazing horizontal recovery game. This isn't a flaw like you keep insisting. Of course a simple b-air block on the ledge isn't going to kill a Pit player. You're much better off trying to ceiling them, setting them up above you where you can (such as the low-hanging parts of the platforms on Lylat) for up-smash sweetspots, throw into wavesash into it, as well, or try and get them in a poor position above you for a u-air. Horizontal kills aren't the only way to go, you've got an entire blast line above you. Characters like Pit generally have a good time coming back to you horizontally, but have a rough time coming down on a player waiting for them. Sheik's got the attacks to deal with it. Even if U-air is one of the weaker vertical kill moves in PM, it's one of Sheik's strongest, and a vital part of her moveset against a character like Pit.

Well then, it's a good thing she can still get gimps on a huge part of the roster, isn't it? It's a big part of her game, but it's not the only part of her game. PM's got characters that she simply can't contend with in that manner, but it's not a flaw. It's just a tougher matchup.
I agree. 100%. I am not saying the game is flawed, I am saying sheik is flawed. And considerably more flawed than others. I am sorry it took so long to get to this but this thread was not on this topic but that ended up what we're discussing. She does not stack up against the rest of the roster favorably. The reasons she was really good in melee to not largely apply in PM (gimps, throws, reliable early kills).

You keep saying brawl characters like its a small part of the roster. There are effectively 8 Melee characters (fox, falco, peach, sheik, CF ganny, Puff, Marth) a few others are unchanged enough to be comparable to their melee counterparts, at least in terms of recovery (luigi, yoshi, ICs, pika, and Roy). Thats 13/41 characters. ~70% of the cast are effectively brawl characters. So instead of being able to gimp everyone but like puff/peach (>90% of the cast) she can gimp less than half of the cast. Its VERY noticeable. I would say including the 13 listed above, she can also gimp Ness, Wario, Ivy, ZSS, DDD, Snake, and Ike. That is less than half of the cast not "a huge part of the roster."

So not only is her gimp/needle game significantly less effective, she has perhaps the worse recovery in the game. Honestly I can only think of Roy, Olimar, Ness, and Tink miiiight have arguably worse recoveries. All of these characters have significantly longer recoveries, have actual mixups, and can land on stage better. ZSS/Ivy/tether only characters also might be considered weak but at least they have massive range and tether tricks.

As if it couldn't get worse, she kills later than throws/adorable little turtles/zoning characters/most of the cast.

IMO Sheik needs fair/bair/dsmash/uair buffed to kill ~20% earlier (based on the excel sheet I linked) to put her around the average KO power. She also needs her recover to not eat *****. A tether would be OK. She doesn't need more range necessarily but it might help.

My point is Sheik is an outlier in the cast and all she has to her name is pretty great projectiles, good throw damage if they cannot DI, and pretty good combos which is significantly less than what the rest of the cast has.
 

Fortress

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Needles are amazing against Ike and ganny. Hitting ike while he is charging/in the middle of his side b is basically a dead Ike. Hitting Ganny at the end of his down b/in his jump is also super good if you cannot get out there with an aerial. I was simply giving an example. I understand needles are not always the best option. I was saying that needles are effective against a small fraction of the cast compared to the large fraction of the cast they were in melee.
I'm just making the point that hitting somebody who has a poor recovery with a needle can potentially give them another go at it. It's the dream in SheikxMario to get hit with a fireball while too far away to recover.

My three points about needles were: they are not nearly as good as they were in melee, it takes a silly amount of precise hits to gimp a lot of characters, and not only are they not as good, they actually help some characters! The last point here is showing an extreme and is not the majority of the point.
The last part of what you were saying is what I was saying in regards to Ganondorf and Ike, so, we're somewhat on the same page there.

I agree. 100%. I am not saying the game is flawed, I am saying sheik is flawed. And considerably more flawed than others. I am sorry it took so long to get to this but this thread was not on this topic but that ended up what we're discussing. She does not stack up against the rest of the roster favorably. The reasons she was really good in melee to not largely apply in PM (gimps, throws, reliable early kills).
I wouldn't go so far as to say Sheik is flawed, but would say that there is a larger roster of characters with higher viability than she had to fight before. Does that reflect poorly on her current standing? Sure, I can see how it would be construed that she's been 'diluted' in that the majority of the cast has had their own abilities increased so as to render options that simply shut down other cast members to be weaker. Sheik can still excel in a PM environment as-is, though she now has some matchups that are far from favorable.

You keep saying brawl characters like its a small part of the roster.
I am saying Brawl characters are a small part of the roster, at least the characters that outright beat her Melee gimping playstyle are. Sheik's got more characters like Puff and Peach (at least in respect to being able to resist being outright gimped) to contend with in PM, but they're still a small number of characters compared to the total of 41. Peach, Puff, Pit, Meta Knight, Kirby, and Yoshi (if we're taking his double-jump armor into account) are the ones that I feel we should concern ourselves with when we're talking about needle-gimps, and that's a small amount of characters to deal with.

So not only is her gimp/needle game significantly less effective, she has perhaps the worse recovery in the game. Honestly I can only think of Roy, Olimar, Ness, and Tink miiiight have arguably worse recoveries. All of these characters have significantly longer recoveries, have actual mixups, and can land on stage better. ZSS/Ivy/tether only characters also might be considered weak but at least they have massive range and tether tricks.
I'm not going to argue that Sheik has a subpar recovery on its own. Its major asset is in its ability to sweetspot the ledge easily, and give Sheik a large chunk of time in where she cannot be damaged. Of course, we all know she falls like a brick the moment she reappears. Sheik isn't completely without her own recovery mixups though, granted they are extremely situational, revolving around her wall jump and needle reversal/cancel.

As if it couldn't get worse, she kills later than throws/adorable little turtles/zoning characters/most of the cast.

IMO Sheik needs fair/bair/dsmash/uair buffed to kill ~20% earlier (based on the excel sheet I linked) to put her around the average KO power. She also needs her recover to not eat ****s. A tether would be OK. She doesn't need more range necessarily but it might help.
I think D-smash is fine as-is, to be honest. It's an effective ledgeguarding tool on its own. U-air could probably be more powerful, yes, in either outright attacking strength or KB scaling. It could even sport a sweetspot at her center, at her feet, at the start of the move, or whatever. B-air is powerful at the tip of her foot, but yeah, Sheik's 'inner' hitboxes could stand to be stronger. Just hit a Pit CPU who was at ~170% with that part of the attack, and he barely moved anywhere. Then again, that's just bad spacing.

Sheik could use some more KO power in her main KO moves, but I don't think it needs to be drastic. I don't feel like she needs a tether recovery at all, as it'd be practical only if the startup of chain was shortened up a lot. That thing takes forever to come out. What would be extremely useful to Sheik would be a slightly longer-reaching recovery, and the ability to wall jump out of it somehow. That would be something I could get into.

My point is Sheik is an outlier in the cast and all she has to her name is pretty great projectiles, good throw damage if they cannot DI, and pretty good combos which is significantly less than what the rest of the cast has.
I won't disagree with you there, but that's why I don't play mono-Sheik; she's simply not enough to take on the entire viable cast anymore.
 

RedEyesWhiteSwaggin

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I'm just making the point that hitting somebody who has a poor recovery with a needle can potentially give them another go at it. It's the dream in SheikxMario to get hit with a fireball while too far away to recover.

The last part of what you were saying is what I was saying in regards to Ganondorf and Ike, so, we're somewhat on the same page there.
I gotcha, I'm just sayin its not the same since DK always benefits from his up b getting hit which is unique. You can help anyone by hitting them at the peak/end of their recovery buut its not important.

I am saying Brawl characters are a small part of the roster, at least the characters that outright beat her Melee gimping playstyle are. Sheik's got more characters like Puff and Peach (at least in respect to being able to resist being outright gimped) to contend with in PM, but they're still a small number of characters compared to the total of 41. Peach, Puff, Pit, Meta Knight, Kirby, and Yoshi (if we're taking his double-jump armor into account) are the ones that I feel we should concern ourselves with when we're talking about needle-gimps, and that's a small amount of characters to deal with.
I would extend the list of who she has trouble gimping to include Mario, Zelda, Wolf, Tink, Link, M2 (ffuuuccck this recovery), Pika, Zard, Samus, Lucas, ROB, GW, and Sonic. but yeah sure. (I know you were just listing the characters who negate needle gimps).

I'm not going to argue that Sheik has a subpar recovery on its own. Its major asset is in its ability to sweetspot the ledge easily, and give Sheik a large chunk of time in where she cannot be damaged. Of course, we all know she falls like a brick the moment she reappears. Sheik isn't completely without her own recovery mixups though, granted they are extremely situational, revolving around her wall jump and needle reversal/cancel.
It seems pretty silly design wise to give the other two teleporting characters even less landing lag than in melee and keep sheiks the same :/. Its nice that it can sweetspot easy and is invincible, but it doesn't change the fact that it can all be covered with just one option/reactions. Yes, hitting the opponent with WJ bair or WJ shenanigans are really the only legitimate mixups but they do not often come into play given how wide the stages are, how poor her aerial mobility is, etc (ie she cannot reach the stage's wall). The only other "mixups" absolutely require your opponent to **** the pooch or overcommit.

I think D-smash is fine as-is, to be honest. It's an effective ledgeguarding tool on its own. U-air could probably be more powerful, yes, in either outright attacking strength or KB scaling. It could even sport a sweetspot at her center, at her feet, at the start of the move, or whatever. B-air is powerful at the tip of her foot, but yeah, Sheik's 'inner' hitboxes could stand to be stronger. Just hit a Pit CPU who was at ~170% with that part of the attack, and he barely moved anywhere. Then again, that's just bad spacing.
I'm all for adding sweetspots/precision. Some growth with sour spots would be great. I cannot stand some of the new character's lack of sweetspots/the sourspot being equally good. Prime example Snake's fair: easy to hit sweet spot=strongest spike in the game, other sweet spot kills at 115 horizontally (3rd strongest aerial), and sour spot kills at 130 (17th strongest of 75). ://///// Another example lucas' bair, its either a spike or a side kill move.

I don't think a dsmash buff is at all required it just kills super late. Uair definitely needs love.

Sheik could use some more KO power in her main KO moves, but I don't think it needs to be drastic. I don't feel like she needs a tether recovery at all, as it'd be practical only if the startup of chain was shortened up a lot. That thing takes forever to come out. What would be extremely useful to Sheik would be a slightly longer-reaching recovery, and the ability to wall jump out of it somehow. That would be something I could get into.
I don't feel that even 20% is drastic lol. bair/fair both kill at 154 with no DI. Kills around 130 would put her with like Diddy, ZSS, Squirtle, Sonic, Lucrio, Link(s) which seems pretty reasonable to me. Tether would work like it would in brawl (and it was pretty good afaik) its considerably faster and quite long. I agree she doesn't specifically need a tether I'd just like it to be useful. But yes, her recovery is literally the shortest in the game probably excluding Tink/Wario. Yes, a thousand times yes to the WJ that would be hype as ****.
 
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Fortress

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Kind of doubting that Sheik will ever get changed, I mean, I can't see that in any of the Melee top-tiers' futures. Which is sad, because a longer recovery, with wall-jump ability would be great. Also, it wouldn't kill Sheik to have sweet/sourspots with some better KBG.
 

RedEyesWhiteSwaggin

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IMO its just because the majority of people don't realize how far she has fallen. All they see is them getting ***** for free by that one sheik player in melee :/.
 
D

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i play sheik solo and the only thing i lose to are MUs i don't know (until i know them) and players that are clearly better than me. sheik is amazingly good in this game, probably even better than she is in melee, relatively speaking.
 

Fortress

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i play sheik solo and the only thing i lose to are MUs i don't know (until i know them) and players that are clearly better than me. sheik is amazingly good in this game, probably even better than she is in melee, relatively speaking.
Thank you.
 

RedEyesWhiteSwaggin

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i play sheik solo and the only thing i lose to are MUs i don't know (until i know them) and players that are clearly better than me. sheik is amazingly good in this game, probably even better than she is in melee, relatively speaking.
Now I respect you as a player and your opinions on smash but I do not think that is relevant. Would you beat these same people in melee? In my experience the majority of people who play PM are those that quit melee due to fox/sheik. In general they do not know the sheik MU very well. I cannot tell you the number of people I have had to tell to grab the ledge and how to DI her throws.

What do you mean relatively speaking? Relatively speaking she is 100% more powerful in melee as she has nigh unloseable matchups with 70% of the cast (not jumping down your throat just don't understand your usage).

I do not see how you can say she is better than in melee, quite simply:

-her recovery went from not horrible in terms of distance (and arguably better than falcon/ganny) in melee to literally one of the worst of 40 characters.

-her grab game went from guaranteed tech chases on spacies (a ton a free damage if you react correctly) and free damage/kill moves/positioning on the rest of the cast. This changed to no free tech chases on spacies (they can DI down and away considerably more) and absolutely 0 free damage off of throws if they react and DI correctly

-her off stage game went from being one of the best if not the best to a better than average one

-needles went from effective on the entire relevant cast to effective on maybe half

-she went from the best gimper (other than maybe fox) to a better than average one that cannot reliably gimp more than half the cast

-she went from being able to kill reliably at 100% to not being able to

-not a huge deal but she also got considerably smaller with brawl models and bigger heavy weights which affects limb length/spacing etc

-the stage list does not at all favor her (significantly wider blast zones)

How on earth is any of this better? I do not doubt that you are still successful with her but so are many in my region who played her in melee (literally all of them agree that she is not as strong and half swear fair is nerfed lol).
 

MVP

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Can someone please tell me which MU are not in Shiek's Favor?
 

RedEyesWhiteSwaggin

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Can someone please tell me which MU are not in Shiek's Favor?
Its pretty controversial but I would say in general:

loses noticeably: Fox, Puff, maybe ICs

slight disadvantage: Yoshi, Link, maybe tink, sorta ZSS, Lucas, MK, GW maybe?, and Sonic maybe?, Pit

Thats all I can think of now. MUs in general are nowhere near fully developed.
 
D

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How on earth is any of this better? I do not doubt that you are still successful with her but so are many in my region who played her in melee (literally all of them agree that she is not as strong and half swear fair is nerfed lol).
PM Sheik is best treated as a new character and not as a remake of her old model. This is because her throw game was so centralizing to her character that the alteration to it changes how you go about the match heavily. PM Sheik also operates within the system of Project M and not melee, which has been hugely beneficial to her:

- In melee, high level play becomes so heavily centralized around movement that the neutral game makes sheik worse because she doesn't actually have a neutral game. sheik neutral game is running up or walking up, closing off sections of the stage, and then hoping that the opponent tries to deal with you in an unfavorable way. better players know that they can simply choose to engage sheik because her lack of a real dashdance, lack of a fast shuffle aerial kit, and lack of safe attack strings on shield means she has no real way to approach. contrary in PM, she still doesn't have safe block string, but the net increase in move viability across the cast puts a lesser emphasis on movement. therefore it's much less likely that the opponent will be able to say dashdance you out of the game.

- her throw game is also different but i would not say substantially worse. sheik's new throw game is similar to that of melee marth, where you want to put the opponent into a crappy position and then keep them there as long as possible. due to the new throws, sheik trades a reliable throw > aerial combo for the ability to set up several excellent frame traps. this is good because "correct" DI usually leads to more gimps, which is conducive to her strengths as a character. if i downthrow the opponent, and they DI away to avoid a follow-up, sheik is still easily fast enough to dash to their landing spot, cancel the dash with crouch into a jab reset, and react accordingly. the fun part is that this also works with backthrow too. by DIing across a significant portion of the stage, that is stage control that you no longer need to fight for. so rather than getting say downthrow > downthrow > fair, in PM sheik can do like downthrow > jab frame trap reset > downthrow > your opponent is off the stage and you're sheik. even with the change in recoveries making her edge guards worse, having your opponent off or near the edge is still hugely advantageous in a game based on positioning.

- similar to melee marth, if your opponent can't do anything about you, they're effectively "already dead". most of my kills are using a few throws to get the opponent to the edge at 30% and then going through the motions until they die, but that's no real threat to me from that position. i would argue that sheik still has the best edge game but i agree with you that it is relatively worse.

i have a lot more to add to this but i can't really do that tonight, i have a lot to do. that said, this should be enough to talk about for now. tl;dr stop playing melee sheik in pm and play pm sheik in pm and you should do much better with her.
 

Juushichi

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Its pretty controversial but I would say in general:

loses noticeably: Fox, Puff, maybe ICs

slight disadvantage: Yoshi, Link, maybe tink, sorta ZSS, Lucas, MK, GW maybe?, and Sonic maybe?, Pit

Thats all I can think of now. MUs in general are nowhere near fully developed.
I think Sheik only definitively loses to Fox and Puff here. I don't know about Ice Climbers anymore.

Yoshi is even. Link is probably even. TL is Slight Advantage. Most ZSS players say Slight Advantage. Lucas I think is Advantage. MK is Disadvantage. Sonic is close to even, Pit is probably Slight Advantage.

As someone who plays Sheik and Game and Watch and has played against a fair amount of Sheiks... it's Sheik's Advantage 55-45. Neither character has an approach and both of them should kill the other/should have an easy time stuffing the other's recovery. Sheik is faster and has a better projectile, which makes her better on larger stages.

@ OP: If you want a Sheik killer... best bets are Puff, Fox, MK and maybe Pit.
 
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RedEyesWhiteSwaggin

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I think Sheik only definitively loses to Fox and Puff here. I don't know about Ice Climbers anymore.
As someone who plays Sheik and Game and Watch and has played against a fair amount of Sheiks... it's Sheik's Advantage 55-45. Neither character has an approach and both of them should kill the other/should have an easy time stuffing the other's recovery. Sheik is faster and has a better projectile, which makes her better on larger stages.
Agree except the whole kill/gimp situation. G&W's ftilt/fair/nair/dtilt/bair/fsmash/dsmash/ 7s/9s/the gimpy ones all kill WELL before any of sheik's options (tipper usmash is the ONE exception and it is faaar less viable than GW's usmash which is even stronger). Yes I know fsmash/hammer aren't reliable but he has setups for literally everything else. As for gimps, G&W's recovery is decades ahead of sheik's in terms of distance and utility. He can stop momentum better than anyone else in the game and he can save his jump unlike anyone else which creates a great mixup and I have not found a way to cover both options. To edgeguard sheik, he has to grab the ledge like anyone else only he gets some of the most powerful punishes.

Also short hop double bacon is a pretty decent approach and bair seems to be safe on shield so that seems a pretty good approach too (correct me if I'm wrong).

EDIT: As far as big stages go, I agree she can camp him pretty well but since he kills earlier and has a much better recovery and he will live forever...
 
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TheFadedWarrior

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Sheik is too amazing, you have no chance.

In all seriousness, fight Sheik with Sheik.
 

|~J~|

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sheik main in PM here. most of what was said about sheik is true and false. shes good on triangle stages and WW, but not against marth. Having a lot of MU experience with marth and sheik, i would say it is generally in sheik's favor. her f-tilts, when timed and spaced properly, can out range a lot of marths neutral game and even his fairs. marth can shine in this match up if he get one of the said stage mentioned above against sheik, or if the marth is really good at spacing and grabs sheik. marths grabs do work against her almost always if you mix the throws up and give marth more stage control. fox is a tough match for sheik, and so are floaty characters sometimes like samus and kirby who cant be killed easily with sheiks fairs.
 

Dlyte8

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I play some DK and he seems to do really well against sheik. I switched out of playing falcon to playing DK against a sheik after losing a while ago and got a solid 4 stock. Sheik's weight is great for DK to get combos on.
 

ThreeSided

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I play some DK and he seems to do really well against sheik. I switched out of playing falcon to playing DK against a sheik after losing a while ago and got a solid 4 stock. Sheik's weight is great for DK to get combos on.
Sheik's weight is great for everyone's combos. Her and link have been said to have "Hylian weight" in melee, meaning they're just the right weight/fall speed to be comboed by just about everyone.

Sheik Also, however, comboes DK an awful lot. In addition, her fair hits DK out of his recovery with some easily learned spacing. The only issue Sheik should have in this match up outside of her typical issues is actually getting in. Those damn arms have some range. But realistically, all sheik needs is one opening to punish and DK is in trouble.

If the sheik you're facing is too aggressive or impatient, sheik will lose. But if played correctly, I'd think that it's going to be in Sheik's favor.
 

Fortress

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fox is a tough match for sheik, and so are floaty characters sometimes like samus and kirby who cant be killed easily with sheiks fairs.
Sheik's got the tools to deal with Fox/Falco pretty easily, namely needles and large hitboxes in N-Air/B-Air that can easily shut out their recoveries. As for floatier characters, Sheik's got a powerful U-Air which chains from a lot of her other attacks. She's got the options to deal with plenty of the cast.
 
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