I lost a tournament I knew I could win. Help?

[GuyWhoUsesMarth]

So today I played at a tournament in which I Was arguably the best tech skill-wise and I have really good game knowledge when I was observing and comparing myself to the other people in the tournament. (Not boasting, please don't get it the wrong way)

However (No johns) I played while I was really baked which I usually don't do.. I thought I could concentrate better if I did. It did initially, I was at full concentration in the first round and won, however I started getting couch locked as my high started fading and it got really bad to a point where I wasn't even wave dashing anymore because instinctively I was too lazy to input commands.

In Loser's semi's I lost to a kid that played brawl mainly and not pm, and I came from a long background of melee but I was getting wrecked by his zss even though his tech skill wasn't really present.. Anyway, I'm entering again this week SOBER and see how it goes. But my question is, is fox falco still good against the modified brawl characters? because I feel like they are pretty broken..

Opinions, Angry Messages, Thoughts?

 

[victinivcreate1]

1. Never play Smash while influenced by anything. I may be just a kid who's been clean all my life, but I know this.

2. Tech skill is not a free win in Smash. It just gives you more options. Hax and Dark may be some of the most technical players in Melee, but there is a reason why Mango, Mew2King and the other Melee gods get top 5 every time. They have better application of said techniques.

3. You claim to have roots in Melee. This is PM. Its a very different game with 25 new matchups to learn. Learn them. ZSS is a good character with plenty of tools.

4. Fox is good, number one still. Falco is like 12th because while his offensive game is still nearly unparalleled, his recovery gets his booty handed to him on a silver platter.

 

[GuyWhoUsesMarth]

1. Never play Smash while influenced by anything. I may be just a kid who's been clean all my life, but I know this.

2. Tech skill is not a free win in Smash. It just gives you more options. Hax and Dark may be some of the most technical players in Melee, but there is a reason why Mango, Mew2King and the other Melee gods get top 5 every time. They have better application of said techniques.

3. You claim to have roots in Melee. This is PM. Its a very different game with 25 new matchups to learn. Learn them. ZSS is a good character with plenty of tools.

4. Fox is good, number one still. Falco is like 12th because while his offensive game is still nearly unparalleled, his recovery gets his booty handed to him on a silver platter.

Thanks a lot for the reply! ^_^

I shall try my luck again for the next one!

 

[Daftatt]

However (No johns) I played while I was really baked

Lol, is there even a question to why you lost? People THINK they are better while high or drunk, I used to be one of them, but just looking at the science it doesn't add up, we lose reaction time nomatter what when we smoke or drink it's just flat out how the substance affects our brain and it's the same way with us losing a fair about of cognitive power as well, which is important for assessing and adapting to playstyles and strategies.

Sure maybe you don't get psyched out or distracted (as we say in washington, Don't choke, take a toke!), but in the end, you're just handicapping yourself.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I was typing a reply, but the only thing worth saying is 'LOL'

 

[GuyWhoUsesMarth]

Lol, is there even a question to why you lost? People THINK they are better while high or drunk, I used to be one of them, but just looking at the science it doesn't add up, we lose reaction time nomatter what when we smoke or drink it's just flat out how the substance affects our brain and it's the same way with us losing a fair about of cognitive power as well, which is important for assessing and adapting to playstyles and strategies.

Sure maybe you don't get psyched out or distracted (as we say in washington, Don't choke, take a toke!), but in the end, you're just handicapping yourself.

You make a great point haha. I played really high a couple of weeks ago but it was a different strain so I had a different high and I felt so much more confident and concentrated but I agree- it really messes with reaction time. Also it highly impaired my ability to adapt since whenever I got caught in a combo from a failed wavedash or something I kept thinking about how embarrassing it would be to lose tournament instead of focusing on winning the match I was currently playing. Thanks a lot for your insight!

I was typing a reply, but the only thing worth saying is 'LOL'

Sadly, you are most likely right : (

 

[Narpas_sword]

It's not smash unless you're smashed =p.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Lessons were properly learned, it seems.
This one in particular puts you ahead of most of the playerbase already. I believe that you see on social media and other smash-related sites/forums how often smashers overall talk about playing under the influence of any drug makes them better.

Good hunting for your next run!

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

As far as playing smash "Geeked" or "Baked" whatever you want to call it. I don't know, for me it makes me play ALOT more fluidly. Like my tech skill and reaction time are unparalleled when I'm on some dope. That's just me though, everyone else may react differently to that sort of thing. Lol, bruh if you really want to focus...I'm not trying to persuade you or anyone else but Adderall will put you into the game so deeply you'll forget that you need food and water to survive. But you didn't hear it from me. PUI (lol PUI...) isn't bad you just lost the high.

Fox & Falco both took hits, but they are minor. Falco took a bigger hit than Fox but Falco is not 12th on the tier list, it's still Falco. It's not even his recovery that causes that, it's because recoveries as a whole are so damn safe/good in PM. Which we already know is being addressed. I wish there were more competent Falcos in PM to show people he isn't "bad" because he can't recover. There is a reason his recovery is that bad.

But so many Project M players think Falco is just Laser > Dair > Shine combos > Fsmash and that's why they get stomped then cry "HE'S NOT LIKE MELEE MAN". That's because this isn't ******* Melee it's Project M and even if it was Melee you'd still get stomped. Falco isn't some brain dead combo fiend you can play whenever you want to turn up the heat. The character's playstyle may seem that simple but its alot deeper than you'd think. That being said he's definitely not 2nd but I wouldn't take Falco out of the top 6 or 7 characters in the game. Mewtwo, Pit, Sonic and Mario are the only cause of that as well. He's sure as hell not outside of the top 10.

 

[Narpas_sword]

it makes me play ALOT more fluidly. Like my tech skill and reaction time are unparalleled when I'm on some dope. .

Have you recorded matches and watched them sober?
because if not that's some serious bias...

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

Have you recorded matches and watched them sober?
because if not that's some serious bias...

No. I play against others while high and I play better, just as simple as that. I'm not the type to smoke a blunt, start trippin' balls and get super giggly and ****. Probably because I smoke alot more than people on these forums, like I said it affects everyone differently. It's not a bias because you don't believe it...actually you're the one that's biased in this situation. -_-

 

[Narpas_sword]

if only science was that simple eh.

your post just reeks of 'Dropkick'.

 

[GuyWhoUsesMarth]

As far as playing smash "Geeked" or "Baked" whatever you want to call it. I don't know, for me it makes me play ALOT more fluidly. Like my tech skill and reaction time are unparalleled when I'm on some dope. That's just me though, everyone else may react differently to that sort of thing. Lol, bruh if you really want to focus...I'm not trying to persuade you or anyone else but Adderall will put you into the game so deeply you'll forget that you need food and water to survive. But you didn't hear it from me. PUI (lol PUI...) isn't bad you just lost the high.
.

Yeah I smoked a nice blunt with my friends 10 minutes before the start of the tournament.. I was very fluid too, but the high turned to a couch lock in 30 minutes and completely broke my concentration.

If I can grab some of that stuff I'll definitely give it a try

As for falco, I completely agree with your opinion.. when I play him in PM, if my opponent messes up and I can punish with a shine I can usually combo them from 0 -> 70% and go for the kill, but if I mess up even just once I usually die right away as well

 

[bountyxhunted]

geez are you guys in colorado? Cause i am.

 

[GrosMinou]

Maybe if you would have stick to your name, you could have won.

 

[Exodo]

1. Never play Smash while influenced by anything. I may be just a kid who's been clean all my life, but I know this.

2. Tech skill is not a free win in Smash. It just gives you more options. Hax and Dark may be some of the most technical players in Melee, but there is a reason why Mango, Mew2King and the other Melee gods get top 5 every time. They have better application of said techniques.

3. You claim to have roots in Melee. This is PM. Its a very different game with 25 new matchups to learn. Learn them. ZSS is a good character with plenty of tools.

4. Fox is good, number one still. Falco is like 12th because while his offensive game is still nearly unparalleled, his recovery gets his booty handed to him on a silver platter.

only 25 new matchups to learn?

 

[Narpas_sword]

Im guessing he means 25 new characters from melee.

 

[archedmaid]

Playing high only works if every one is high.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Only the chosen can play while drunk and or high; mango and axe are among these chosen few.

 

[victinivcreate1]

As far as playing smash "Geeked" or "Baked" whatever you want to call it. I don't know, for me it makes me play ALOT more fluidly. Like my tech skill and reaction time are unparalleled when I'm on some dope. That's just me though, everyone else may react differently to that sort of thing. Lol, bruh if you really want to focus...I'm not trying to persuade you or anyone else but Adderall will put you into the game so deeply you'll forget that you need food and water to survive. But you didn't hear it from me. PUI (lol PUI...) isn't bad you just lost the high.

Fox & Falco both took hits, but they are minor. Falco took a bigger hit than Fox but Falco is not 12th on the tier list, it's still Falco. It's not even his recovery that causes that, it's because recoveries as a whole are so damn safe/good in PM. Which we already know is being addressed. I wish there were more competent Falcos in PM to show people he isn't "bad" because he can't recover. There is a reason his recovery is that bad.

But so many Project M players think Falco is just Laser > Dair > Shine combos > Fsmash and that's why they get stomped then cry "HE'S NOT LIKE MELEE MAN". That's because this isn't ******* Melee it's Project M and even if it was Melee you'd still get stomped. Falco isn't some brain dead combo fiend you can play whenever you want to turn up the heat. The character's playstyle may seem that simple but its alot deeper than you'd think. That being said he's definitely not 2nd but I wouldn't take Falco out of the top 6 or 7 characters in the game. Mewtwo, Pit, Sonic and Mario are the only cause of that as well. He's sure as hell not outside of the top 10.

All have offensive games that can come close to, match, or even over come Falco's and all have better recoveries too. You can argue Lucario, but him, Snake, Link and Ivy are roughly even.

Trust me bruh.

 

[Hoser]

No. I play against others while high and I play better, just as simple as that. I'm not the type to smoke a blunt, start trippin' balls and get super giggly and ****. Probably because I smoke alot more than people on these forums, like I said it affects everyone differently. It's not a bias because you don't believe it...actually you're the one that's biased in this situation. -_-

The same goes for me. However, I don't think we are better while high per se. I think its more of the fact that that's what we're used to. When playing sober, we're in a different mindset, and its one we're not normally in while playing this game so it feels off. I'm sure if either one of us were to stop playing stoned altogether, we would notice a small increase in skill level after a short time.

But it ain't worth it to me lol.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

All have offensive games that can come close to, match, or even over come Falco's and all have better recoveries too. You can argue Lucario, but him, Snake, Link and Ivy are roughly even.

Trust me bruh.

Fox is better than Falco. That's already a given you didn't even have to list him. I've already said Pit, Mewtwo, Sonic and Mario are all arguably better than Falco at the moment. I should have included Lucas as well, I don't know how I forgot about him.

That's not because they have better offensive game (Lucas is about the only candidate), it's because all of these characters have a much easier time in this current PM Metagame. Which tends to favor characters with reliable approach options, a decent punish game and an incredible recovery. Notice all those characters you listed have stupidly good recovery options spare Fox. Recoveries are breaking this game, needless to say this is why the PMBR has chosen to rework this area of PM.

I will say that even though these characters probably don't have a better onstage game than Falco, a few of them come pretty close. Okay STOP for a moment and review this situation: FALCO HAS AN INSANE ONSTAGE GAME IN CHANGE FOR A TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE RECOVERY. PIT, DIDDY, MARIO, MEWTWO, LUCAS, SONIC HAVE GREAT/ABOVE AVERAGE ONSTAGE GAMES IN EXCHANGE FOR GODLIKE RECOVERIES................... Okay what the ****? That's the exact reason these characters are so good. That makes absolutely no sense, absolutely no damn sense. People complain about spacies and whine "Shine, Shine, Shine!!!" Whine Shine. Whine Shine. Yea babyyyyy, just whine shine for me.

There is a cost for having shine, what's costing these other characters people don't want nerfed more than say Fox or Falco??? Especially when you've got even more foolishness on the side, like Mario being able to avoid a crazy amount of punishes at extremely low percents with just with his Nair. Why does a character that can recover from nearly anywhere offstage, (Yes Mario's recovery is RIDICULOUS, he can recover from the depths of hell yelling "YIPPEEE!" in Satan's face.) alongside a great onstage, punish, and crouch cancel game get the option to be hard to combo??? Come on this **** is elementary bruh, **** outta here with that I call BS.

Wolf and Lucario I'm not going to argue against, they can't compete with the pressure Falco bears on an opponent. This is from knowledge of me playing both characters. Wolf can pin an opponent down but not on the level Falco can.

Lucario isn't even in Falco's league, his neutral game is borderline trash. Dependent upon dash attack approaches and Down-B mixups, the latter of which is simple to punish if you know how. His punish game is amazing, but it quickly goes from amazing to just above average if your opponent knows how to DI.

Even with all the truth in this post, Falco isn't outside of the top 10 as I said.
Trust me bruh, put all your trust in me tho.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

New single on iTunes by artist 2 C H i L L E D: "Whine Shine" ft. Foolish PM Players
Get it Today!

 

[victinivcreate1]

Fox is better than Falco. That's already a given you didn't even have to list him. I've already said Pit, Mewtwo, Sonic and Mario are all arguably better than Falco at the moment. I should have included Lucas as well, I don't know how I forgot about him.

That's not because they have better offensive game (Lucas is about the only candidate), it's because all of these characters have a much easier time in this current PM Metagame. Which tends to favor characters with reliable approach options, a decent punish game and an incredible recovery. Notice all those characters you listed have stupidly good recovery options spare Fox. Recoveries are breaking this game, needless to say this is why the PMBR has chosen to rework this area of PM.

I will say that even though these characters probably don't have a better onstage game than Falco, a few of them come pretty close. Okay STOP for a moment and review this situation: FALCO HAS AN INSANE ONSTAGE GAME IN CHANGE FOR A TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE RECOVERY. PIT, DIDDY, MARIO, MEWTWO, LUCAS, SONIC HAVE GREAT/ABOVE AVERAGE ONSTAGE GAMES IN EXCHANGE FOR GODLIKE RECOVERIES................... Okay what the ****? That's the exact reason these characters are so good. That makes absolutely no sense, absolutely no damn sense. People complain about spacies and whine "Shine, Shine, Shine!!!" Whine Shine. Whine Shine. Yea babyyyyy, just whine shine for me.

There is a cost for having shine, what's costing these other characters people don't want nerfed more than say Fox or Falco??? Especially when you've got even more foolishness on the side, like Mario being able to avoid a crazy amount of punishes at extremely low percents with just with his Nair. Why does a character that can recover from nearly anywhere offstage, (Yes Mario's recovery is RIDICULOUS, he can recover from the depths of hell yelling "YIPPEEE!" in Satan's face.) alongside a great onstage, punish, and crouch cancel game get the option to be hard to combo??? Come on this **** is elementary bruh, **** outta here with that I call BS.

Wolf and Lucario I'm not going to argue against, they can't compete with the pressure Falco bears on an opponent. This is from knowledge of me playing both characters. Wolf can pin an opponent down but not on the level Falco can.

Lucario isn't even in Falco's league, his neutral game is borderline trash. Dependent upon dash attack approaches and Down-B mixups, the latter of which is simple to punish if you know how. His punish game is amazing, but it quickly goes from amazing to just above average if your opponent knows how to DI.

Even with all the truth in this post, Falco isn't outside of the top 10 as I said.
Trust me bruh, put all your trust in me tho.

Doesn't Falco have big holes in his pressure that can only really be remedied by scaring the opponent into not doing anything or by doing Westballz shine pressure? And the fact that Falco has one extra jumpsquat frame doesn't really help either. In Melee Falco's shield pressure kinda suffered a bit, and PM made it slower, more susceptible to OoS moves.

Mario is BS. Glad you agree. IMO why should a character designed for easy, beginner play offer as much reward as he does? Not saying he should be bottom tier trash but still its a bit too easy to play a decent Mario and you get too much reward for doing so.

Wolf has better shine pressure than Falco that I can confirm. Strong Bad and Soft Serve both said on the Wolf forums that Wolf nair is 0 on shield so frame 1 shine=auto win lol. Wolf is really only vulnerable after the shine, which is the same case with Falco. But iirc Falco doesn't have a move thats 0 on shield.

As for Lucario, well I'm just waiting for that one Lucario main to show what he can do, neither Frozen nor aMSa are those mins. Hoping its Mr.R, though hell it may be you lol. I may be overestimating Lucario, but I do think you're underestimating him. The character has completely guaranteed set ups into his kill moves, and I don't mean jab/jab2 into X kill move.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

Doesn't Falco have big holes in his pressure that can only really be remedied by scaring the opponent into not doing anything or by doing Westballz shine pressure? And the fact that Falco has one extra jumpsquat frame doesn't really help either. In Melee Falco's shield pressure kinda suffered a bit, and PM made it slower, more susceptible to OoS moves.

Mario is BS. Glad you agree. IMO why should a character designed for easy, beginner play offer as much reward as he does? Not saying he should be bottom tier trash but still its a bit too easy to play a decent Mario and you get too much reward for doing so.

Wolf has better shine pressure than Falco that I can confirm. Strong Bad and Soft Serve both said on the Wolf forums that Wolf nair is 0 on shield so frame 1 shine=auto win lol. Wolf is really only vulnerable after the shine, which is the same case with Falco. But iirc Falco doesn't have a move thats 0 on shield.

As for Lucario, well I'm just waiting for that one Lucario main to show what he can do, neither Frozen nor aMSa are those mins. Hoping its Mr.R, though hell it may be you lol. I may be overestimating Lucario, but I do think you're underestimating him. The character has completely guaranteed set ups into his kill moves, and I don't mean jab/jab2 into X kill move.

No, he doesn't have BIG holes in his pressure but there are openings. He doesn't get frame advantage unless you aerial at the right time. That's why these pathetic PM Falco's get scooped up out of a shield like HaggenDaz because they throw the aerial out as soon as they leave the ground. Westballz shine pressure is Double Shine > Wavedash Down > Double Shine, easy to punish unless you're Westballz himself, or have the fainest idea of the pressure you're applying on an opponent. You'd be suprised how easy it is to scare the opponent into doing nothing or something punishable with Falco. Everytime you jump the opponent has ALOT to worry about. Wolf's nair is about his only move positive on shield, don't get me wrong, it's a great move. But it gets stuffed easy as hell because of its horrible range. I think the hitbox is basically inside Wolf's body. You have to be crafty with it, or catch the opponent in shield (which I will admit isn't hard to do as Wolf). If you jump around throwing out repetitive nairs with Wolf you're going to get trashed.

Mario yes. I completely agree with you.

Lucario is good, I'm not trying to underestimate him in the slightest. But comparing his offensive game to Falco's? No sir, Lucario doesn't come close. Lucario cannot force his game upon an opponent the way Falco can. You're right we haven't seen that incredible Lucario main just yet. Which is why I still have hope for him. For the time I've played him I've managed to do some pretty boss things, but once again good DI hurts Lucario more than you'd think it would.

 

[Mr-R]

Honestly I think he's leaning towards top tier, his down b + charge is actually pretty broken LOL

 

[Narpas_sword]

I thought Lucario had a really good offensive game.
It's just that his neutral is terrible

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

He has a good punish game. Offensive game is basically having a good neutral with good approach options. Which he doesn't have.

 

[Ganreizu]

Playing high sure doesn't make you better, but **** me if you don't think it's more fun. (though, i suppose winning would be even more fun for most lol)

 

[archedmaid]

In my experiences with lucario dominating in offensive, but always getting taken down while landing.