I liked Bowser better when he was slow

[Raiden mk-II]

Bowser's toolkit is not lacking. It's balanced out due to the insane power it can deal out if it lands at all. Bowser already has the much needed upgrade to mobility here in Smash 4. Any more buffs and he will be completely overpowered.

It's HOW you use those tools that determine whether or not you are victorious.

 

[S_B]

It's HOW you use those tools that determine whether or not you are victorious.

The mere EXISTENCE of tiers is due to being able to determine which characters have the best toolkits in the game and which have terrible toolkits. This has been the cornerstone of fighting games for decades now.

No one is arguing that the better player should ultimately win, but the best swordfighter in the world will still lose to someone with a gun.

Otherwise, Marth players should've regularly found themselves losing to Pichu players in tournaments...

 

[Mr. Bones]

I understand all of this, but my point is that the "toolkit" you're listing is already in everyone's arsenal.

Most of Bowser's tools are not only unique, but have invincibility frames on the body parts he attacks with. Including his jab.

Bowser has a lot of disjointed moves. Or should I say "invincible parts of his body" during some moves. You can still hit them, but Bowser won't take damage or knockback.

...

Bowser has this disjointedness on these moves (I could destroy bob ombs with them without getting hit):
- jab
- ftilt
- dtilt
- uptilt (when the bomb comes falling from above)

- upair

- fsmash (legs and feet don't have a hurtbox)
- upsmash (when the bob omb comes from above; as soon as Bowser jumps up (aka you let go of the A button after charging) the bomb gets destroyed and Bowser won't get hit (no matter how late I let go of A!!!))
- dsmash (you have to be pretty close, but not too close to the bomb)

Yes, you can mindgame your opponent, but they can certainly do the same to you. A smart opponent will know going into the fight that you'll be trying to bait them into making a mistake because that's the best way Bowser can rack up damage and the ONLY way he can reliably KO.

Okay, so mind-games and player specific skills were probably silly to mention in a character-specific discussion. Still relevant, stay one step ahead of your opponent. My apologies for using it in an argument though.

Winning the mental game is not Bowser's best way to rack up damage. Actually getting a hit in is. He has a few follow-ups and traps and I'll get into those later after some more testing. Also, Bowser has plenty of reliable KO options when the opponent is offstage. You can go deep. You just have to realize you can go deep against most of the cast.

Jiggs and Kirby have ways of turning it around and require more caution, but MK isn't that bad.

Can you use these techniques to do well? Most definitely: that's how I do as well as I do in for glory, but as I said, I see the mistakes as my opponent makes them, and they're mistakes that a smarter opponent wouldn't make (the same mistakes that better opponents DON'T make).

Even really smart people make mistakes. Even the Top 5 choke sometime. It happens. It's everyone's job to minimize their own and capitalize on an opponent's.

This is why I expect Bowser will still wind up low tier. When everyone is at the same or close skill level, that's when it all comes down to the character's toolkit and I still see Bowser having the same issues he always did here.

He doesn't have the same issues though. Is biggest issues were a lack of speed and the ability to get combo'd to death or gimped early. Also he had terrible frame data.

He was easily camped and held back in both iterations of the game.

He's not the fastest character in the game, of course, but he's fast enough now that he can't be camped. His recovery is amazing, like deceptively so. You can weave back and forth, air dodge, and still make it back to the stage. You can even fast-fall to dodge an edgeguard attempt and then make it back. Also his attacks come out quicker and only the overly powerful ones have huge end lag. Except for Bair. That **** kills crazy early. His frame data isn't nearly as bad anymore.

Couple that with the invincible body parts on most of his attacks, you have one scary villain on your hands. You just have to learn your spacing and the range of your opponents. And you have to be quick.

Always keep your double jump, though; it's not hard to do, but it's very important that you save it.

I'll take a look at the videos. Maybe there's some part of Bowser's toolkit that I'm missing here...

Do you have any videos of your Bowser in the mean-time? That way I have a better idea of what you're doing and how I can help?

 

[Mr. Bones]

---Freakin' Double Post---

 

[Raiden mk-II]

but the best swordfighter in the world will still lose to someone with a gun.

But in fighting games, swordfighters can block gunshots as if they were any other attack.

Otherwise, Marth players should've regularly found themselves losing to Pichu players in tournaments...

I'm not saying that any character can regularly beat any other character with regularitty. Otherwise Bowser in Melee would be beating Fox and Sheik regularly in tournaments. Bowser is indeed much better in Smash 4 than in previous installments, but I would be delusional to think he'd be god tier once the meta has been figured out. Bowser simply has more ways to deal with the rest of the roster in Smash 4 than previous installments.

 

[S_B]

Do you have any videos of your Bowser in the mean-time? That way I have a better idea of what you're doing and how I can help?

Sadly, no. Short of holding up a cellphone camera and trying to hold it steady for 3 mins, I have no real way of getting replays off the 3DS. :\

I'm not saying that any character can regularly beat any other character with regularitty. Otherwise Bowser in Melee would be beating Fox and Sheik regularly in tournaments. Bowser is indeed much better in Smash 4 than in previous installments, but I would be delusional to think he'd be god tier once the meta has been figured out. Bowser simply has more ways to deal with the rest of the roster in Smash 4 than previous installments.

Well, yeah.

I'm not expecting Bowser to be god tier, but I'm not even holding out for "competitive tier". Also, it's still far too early to say whether or not Bowser has more ways to deal with "the rest of the roster" because the meta is still very young.

 

[Quillion]

Bowser's upright stance and increased agility actually makes more sense now that I've thought about something.

Remember Brawl, where Bowser replaced Koopa Klaw with Flying Slam. It really didn't fit well with the rest of Bowser's moveset because it was a high flying move when he was supposed to be a slow dinosaur-like monster.

In SSB4, Flying Slam actually fits very well as part of his moveset now that he's more humanlike. He's more of a wrestler-type fighter, but doesn't have quite the focus on grapples that most wrestler-type characters would have.

Regardless, we really should have seen the Anthropomorphic Shift coming from Brawl, since what was once an out-of-place move has become an 80% revamp of Bowser's moves.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Sadly, no. Short of holding up a cellphone camera and trying to hold it steady for 3 mins, I have no real way of getting replays off the 3DS. :\

That's what I'm going to have to do with mine. Do it and show me your moves.

 

[S_B]

That's what I'm going to have to do with mine. Do it and show me your moves.

Let me get some replays against a skilled player where I lose, despite using fakeouts, mindgames and whatnot...

 

[Raiden mk-II]

that's how I do as well as I do in for glory, but as I said, I see the mistakes as my opponent makes them, and they're mistakes that a smarter opponent wouldn't make (the same mistakes that better opponents DON'T make).

This is why I expect Bowser will still wind up low tier. When everyone is at the same or close skill level, that's when it all comes down to the character's toolkit and I still see Bowser having the same issues he always did here.

Correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying you approach players of skill levels lower than yours and better than yours the same way? I would highly suggest that you mix things up. I am forced to change my approaches on the fly when I go from fighting a lesser skilled player to an elite-skilled player in For Glory. I still get wrecked by the elite players, but if I end up playing an elite player for several consecutive matches, I can get a feel for his playstyle, and, in time, that improves my own skills. Also, never play when you're tired...your reaction time suffers greatly.

 

[S_B]

Correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying you approach players of skill levels lower than yours and better than yours the same way? I would highly suggest that you mix things up. I am forced to change my approaches on the fly when I go from fighting a lesser skilled player to an elite-skilled player in For Glory. I still get wrecked by the elite players, but if I end up playing an elite player for several consecutive matches, I can get a feel for his playstyle, and, in time, that improves my own skills. Also, never play when you're tired...your reaction time suffers greatly.

I approach all players the same way: react and punish according to the openings they show and how well I feel I can bait them into making themselves vulnerable.

Worse players are far, FAR easier to bait into vulnerability because they don't see it coming. The more skilled players realize they're being baited and don't fall for it. They know they can force Bowser to approach via projectile spam, and they also know how to pull the same mindgames of "Am I going to attack or aren't I?".

Mindgames are in everyone's toolkit. It's things like a pressuring projectile that aren't in Bowser's.

Bowser KINDA makes up for it by being so heavy that he can afford to screw up more times, but that's a gap that rapidly closes when dealing with an opponent who almost never allows themselves to be baited.

 

[praline]

I like Smash 4 Bowser cause he's closer to the Mario series Bowser.

 

[Mr. Bones]

I approach all players the same way: react and punish according to the openings they show and how well I feel I can bait them into making themselves vulnerable.

Worse players are far, FAR easier to bait into vulnerability because they don't see it coming. The more skilled players realize they're being baited and don't fall for it. They know they can force Bowser to approach via projectile spam, and they also know how to pull the same mindgames of "Am I going to attack or aren't I?".

Mindgames are in everyone's toolkit. It's things like a pressuring projectile that aren't in Bowser's.

Bowser KINDA makes up for it by being so heavy that he can afford to screw up more times, but that's a gap that rapidly closes when dealing with an opponent who almost never allows themselves to be baited.

If you're being primarily reactive, I can definitely see your problem now. Sometimes you have to mix it up and force plays to happen. This post seems to say that you rely almost entirely on your mental game without using the tools for aggression that you actually have. You keep saying that Bowser doesn't have enough tools, but that is not the case.

He might not have a pressuring projectile but he has a pressuring presence. I'm just tempted to ask for your FC and try to see if I can get a handle one what you're working with? I might be able to help better if I can actually fight you or see you fight.

If you know how to proficiently use any of the characters that are giving you trouble, you could try doing that.

 

[S_B]

If you're being primarily reactive, I can definitely see your problem now. Sometimes you have to mix it up and force plays to happen. This post seems to say that you rely almost entirely on your mental game without using the tools for aggression that you actually have. You keep saying that Bowser doesn't have enough tools, but that is not the case.

He might not have a pressuring projectile but he has a pressuring presence. I'm just tempted to ask for your FC and try to see if I can get a handle one what you're working with? I might be able to help better if I can actually fight you or see you fight.

If you know how to proficiently use any of the characters that are giving you trouble, you could try doing that.

Let me clarify: that should be react (comma) and punish. I don't just mean react to my opponent's every action but react as in read the type of player I'm going to be fighting.

Second, I'd like to point out that MrEh's opinion of Bowser identically matches my own. From the other thread:

My opinion is that Bowser is mid tier as of now, and will probably fall lower once people learn how to actually play the game.

So why aren't you attempting to figure out what HIS problem with Bowser is instead of trying to figure out mine?

I think Bowser is better than he's ever been, but every "tool" you list (such as mixing it up) is ultimately also held by EVERY player with EVERY character.

As near as I can tell, the only thing that makes Bowser truly unique is that he's the heaviest character in the game and can therefore afford to screw up the most times before being KOed, but as any metagame veteran knows, that's a recipe for low tier because, at the highest level, your opponents aren't going to screw up enough times for it to matter.

So again, mid tier right now, but he's going to sink like a stone once the meta develops and people have really figured out the projectile games with various characters.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

So why aren't you attempting to figure out what HIS problem with Bowser is instead of trying to figure out mine?

The difference between @ MrEh and you is that he accepted Bowser's glaring weaknesses, but he stays quiet about it. You have gone into multiple topics in this Bowser board and, no offense, complained about things you cannot change. Since you're overly vocal about this and MrEh is mostly staying quiet, people are responding to you specifically. We understand that you are not happy with Bowser not matching up well against other characters, but excessively posting about things everyone else on the Bowser board knows about already will wear their patience down.

By the way, MrEh disagrees with giving Bowser bomb super armor.

I disagree that Bomb should have super armor, because the move is fine as it is. Giving it armor would reduce the counterplay, which I dislike a lot.

 

[Mr. Bones]

I think Bowser is better than he's ever been, but every "tool" you list (such as mixing it up) is ultimately also held by EVERY player with EVERY character.

He also has a ton of invincible body parts when attacking.

As stated in the other thread.

Second, I'd like to point out that MrEh's opinion of Bowser identically matches my own. From the other thread:

So why aren't you attempting to figure out what HIS problem with Bowser is instead of trying to figure out mine?

Like Raiden says, you've been the most vocal about it. Mr. Eh is more than likely spending his time learning how to handle the harder MUs like most everyone else here.

I'm only trying to help you because you seem to be having more issues with the harder MUs, based on your posts.

If you weren't looking for help, it sounds a lot more like your whining about something you can't control. No offense.

Bowser has some tough MUs, but the hardest one for me seems to be RosaLuma. All the other ones definitely feel manageable.

 

[S_B]

The difference between @ MrEh and you is that he accepted Bowser's glaring weaknesses, but he stays quiet about it. You have gone into multiple topics in this Bowser board and, no offense, complained about things you cannot change. Since you're overly vocal about this and MrEh is mostly staying quiet, people are responding to you specifically. We understand that you are not happy with Bowser not matching up well against other characters, but excessively posting about things everyone else on the Bowser board knows about already will wear their patience down.

1. Who says I haven't "accepted" Bowser's weaknesses? I have no expectation that they'll change.

2. Mr. Eh posted in that same thread explaining how Bowser had been nerfed in many of his moves (not all of which I agree are nerfs).

TBH, he seems more pessimistic for Bowser than I did...

If you weren't looking for help, it sounds a lot more like your whining about something you can't control. No offense.

Stating a fact is not "whining".

Bowser's core issues remain unchanged from Brawl. Yes, he's better than he was, but he's still going to get projectile camped and forced to approach. This has not changed about him and I don't see the metagame getting any better as time goes on.

Bowser has some tough MUs, but the hardest one for me seems to be RosaLuma. All the other ones definitely feel manageable.

Never said they weren't, and Rosaluma seems to be a hard/near-impossible matchup for all but 2-3 characters (if the RL forums are to be believed).

That said, if I'm going to be accused of "whining" for stating facts, there's little point in discussing it further.

We'll see where Bowser goes in a year, and my money is on "down the tier list" (though I'd LOVE to be wrong)...

 

[Raiden mk-II]

The point is, @ S_B , is that every one of us Bowser players here are FULLY AWARE of his weaknesses. Mr. Eh stated his opinions and moved on with his game. We do not need to be reminded 100 times a day about things regarding Bowser that we all already know about. Please understand that.

 

[S_B]

The point is, @ S_B , is that every one of us Bowser players here are FULLY AWARE of his weaknesses. Mr. Eh stated his opinions and moved on with his game. We do not need to be reminded 100 times a day about things regarding Bowser that we all already know about. Please understand that.

1. MrEh is still posting his generally negative opinions of Bowser as of yesterday. I maintain that he's actually more pessimistic for Bowser's chances than I am.

2. "100 times a day" is burying the needle on the "Exaggeration-O-Meter". Seriously.

3. Like I said in the last post, there's no point in discussing it further. The tier list being updated over the next year will all the indication we need.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

I meant to say 1,000,000 times a day.

I did decently with slow, hunched-over, car-imitating Bowser in Melee. I do miss the Bowser-hop that I used to do, mixing in short-hopped F-airs to approach and attack.

 

[MrEh]

Like Raiden says, you've been the most vocal about it. Mr. Eh is more than likely spending his time learning how to handle the harder MUs like most everyone else here.

^

1. MrEh is still posting his generally negative opinions of Bowser as of yesterday. I maintain that he's actually more pessimistic for Bowser's chances than I am.

I call it being a realist.

Most of the time I comment on Bowser is when I'm correcting flat out wrong information. It's a new game. Wrong information tends to be quite common.

 

[Quillion]

For all the talk about alienating players I've seen (regarding Wario and Ganondorf), I'm surprised to be the only one who was actually alienated by Bowser being fast (which I still justify on the grounds of him being slow in the spinoffs).