I hope that what I'm hearing isn't true...

[Puffer]

I haven't posted for quite a bit (several months at least), but now I feel compelled to bring this up:

Why is everyone assuming that Brawl will leave Melee in the dust?

I've read threads on these boards where people claim that Melee will still be played "on the side" at tournaments - what's that supposed to mean? Brawl is automatically going to override the Melee tournament scene and replace it? I certainly hope not...I'm sure there's plenty of Melee players out there who are laughing their heads off at what a joke Brawl turned out to be - at least, based on what's been seen so far.

I can't imagine why anyone would WANT to replace Melee with Brawl. Come on - competitive games are meant to be COMPETITIVE. You can't CHOOSE to play a game that has less depth and technical skill over a game that has more depth and technical skill...that's laughable. I'm sure that the majority of Melee players all agree that, so far, Brawl has proven to be a competitive player's worst nightmare. Sluggish gameplay, flashy/distracting stages, decreased technical skill, and an overall decrease in difficulty (easier recovering, easier item-catching, etc.). In my opinion, Brawl does not even deserve the label of "competitive game"; I agree that it's fun to play, but it's miles from being anything like Melee (or even Smash64 for that matter). To be honest, I'd be pretty surprised if Brawl actually turned out to have a stronger tournament scene than Melee...then again, perhaps there's enough raving fanboys out there to play Brawl tournaments just for the sake of playing the newest Nintendo game. Whatever.

And please, if you're tempted to use the age-old argument "But the game hasn't even been out long enough yet. We'll find new things in Brawl that will make it even better than Melee, you'll see!", just don't. I'm going by what we know of the game already. It cannot be denied that Brawl has suffered a pretty cruel blow to both its mindgames and technical skill, compared to Melee and Smash64. Until I see some drastic changes, it's pretty obvious to me that the game is little more than a frantic fun-fest compared to its predecessors. Again, as far as games in general go, there's nothing wrong with that...however, as far as COMPETITIVE games go, there's everything wrong with that.

That's why I'm hoping that the Melee tournament scene stays just as strong as it was before. There's no reason that Brawl should replace Melee, and I have a hard time believing that most Melee players would allow that to happen - as far as I know, players are still the ones who run the tournaments. If players are in charge, then players get to decide what's being played. And if players make sure that Brawl doesn't stomp Melee into the background, guess what? Melee will stay alive and well. Hopefully Melee tournaments are still up and running strong; personally I haven't checked the tournament status of either Melee or Brawl lately, but I hope that nothing's changed too much yet. Heck, let people play Brawl online - let Melee keep dominating the offline Smash tournaments.

 

[Uck]

Dont worry about Brawl replacing the tournament scene.Melee was a sucess because of it genius and gameplay.Melee attracted those who like to compete because it is such a great game.

Without the support from innovative players who want to compete playing a game thats worthy of competing Brawl will just eventually wither and die.

The only thing i see happening is that we may have some people retire from melee because there were not allowed to rekindle there fire because Brawl was such a disaster.

 

[kario_mart]

^^ UCK is totally right, but melee is a competitve game while brawl is for a widespread audience. anyone and i mean anyone can play the game and become pretty good at it.
brawl is based on B moves while melee is based on everything.

 

[Kohr]

Of course Brawl will take over the scene. Brawl introduces new gameplay mechanics, get's rid of those ridiculous glitches, and makes the game less of a chore to play. I'm all for emergent gameplay (I play GunZ, and we're the kings of EG), but Brawl replacing Melee because it's more balanced is only logical. People crying because of Melee's replacement needn't apply; they're afraid of change and the good that comes with it.

 

[kario_mart]

Kohr, the glitches in ssbm helped to speed up the gameplay and inturn, made the smash series even more popular than it was before. brawl cut out all of those and lower the frame rate therefore slowing down the game. the game is now dependent on B moves and items, without these the game is just a hack and slash/turler game that is jusst nothing compared to the game before.

 

[Kohr]

Kohr, the glitches in ssbm helped to speed up the gameplay and inturn, made the smash series even more popular than it was before. brawl cut out all of those and lower the frame rate therefore slowing down the game. the game is now dependent on B moves and items, without these the game is just a hack and slash/turler game that is jusst nothing compared to the game before.

Floaty Engine =! Lower Framerate. Brawl Makes it easier for Joe Schmo to pick up a controller and play, yet still have diligent Smasheads be miles better. Brawl isn't dependent on B moves at all. If anything, B moves are just much more useful. I'm not one who want's to be fox or sheik all the time to win. That's no fun at all. And without Final Smashes, Melee is looking more and more dated. It's gameplay, while great in all respects, just can't stack up to brawl. If anything, brawl is more tactical, as you need to think on your feet rather then defaulting to shffling, l-cancel, wavedashing, or whatever-the-hell. Ergo Brawl is a superior competitive game.

 

[Pye]

Floaty Engine =! Lower Framerate. Brawl Makes it easier for Joe Schmo to pick up a controller and play, yet still have diligent Smasheads be miles better. Brawl isn't dependent on B moves at all. If anything, B moves are just much more useful. I'm not one who want's to be fox or sheik all the time to win. That's no fun at all. And without Final Smashes, Melee is looking more and more dated. It's gameplay, while great in all respects, just can't stack up to brawl. If anything, brawl is more tactical, as you need to think on your feet rather then defaulting to shffling, l-cancel, wavedashing, or whatever-the-hell. Ergo Brawl is a superior competitive game.

Guys, I think he beat us. He can speak latin. You can't argue with someone who can speak latin.

Dude, do you honestly think you could just resort to shffling, l-canceling and wavedashing and win games in Melee? Are you even a competitive player, seriously? Have you ever even been to a tournament? Based on what you're saying, I'd wager money that you've never actually played this game competitively at all, in which case your argument is totally baseless.

First of all, how was it difficult at all for Joe Schmo to pick up a controller and play Melee? Casual play in Melee was fun, wild and easy to pick up and join, you can't really contest that. Now, if you're talking about competitive play, Joe Schmo would get eaten alive in both Melee and Brawl, that's a fact. That's the definition of a fighting game, good or poor.

As for the b-move argument, I'm going to skip over that one because I don't really understand why Brawl would be b-move dependant. I do agree with you that most B-moves are better (or at least more applicable now that the game is slower) in Brawl, for the most part.

Third, the fact that you're complaining about the character you use, to me, implies that you're a casual player. Competitive players have never minded that they could chose from 7 or 8 characters in tournament. Do you know why? No, of course you don't. It's because people play this game competitively to test their mind against their opponent's. They want to out-think their opponent and see if they can trick them into getting hit by attacks, and if they can be beaten. They don't ooo and aaahh over all the cute nintendo characters, they just pick the character they feel provides them with the most options to out-thinking their opponent. In casual play, all characters are viable, as it should be, because maybe casual players do want to ooo and ahhh at the characters. My girlfriend loves playing Brawl, for the simple reason that she thinks Kirby is cute. I've got nothing against that at all.

Also, it's almost certain that, after a few years of Brawl being out, a tier list will evolve, and not all characters will be viable in tournaments. You cannot have a fighter game with more than one character in which there aren't top characters and bottom characters, period. Your argument that Brawl is more balanced is totally invalid, it's like trying to argue that a brand new 386 is better than an old but more modern computer because the 386 runs smoother inicially. The more you use the 386, the more you'll find it's actually very lacking over the newer machine, even though inicially you thought it was better.

Final smashes, the competitive scene doesn't really know what to do with those yet, so I'm going to leave that alone. I'd guess that they won't be used in competitive play, but it's fully possible that they will.

Finally, here is the passage of your post that really makes me believe you don't play Melee competitively. Technical skill in Melee, including shffling, wavedashing and whatever-the-hell, gave you more options. Shffling allowed you to hit opponents standing on the ground with aerials, for example. Wavedashing was a positioning tool, allowing you to space quickly, effectively and laglessly. L-canceling gave you options when your aerials were shielded. Dash-dancing is another spacing tool, like wavedashing. It's also a pressuring tool, it makes your opponent react to it. I could keep going with this all day.

My point being: Technical skill = options. The number of options you have is proportional to what your character can physically do, in all categories. This includes basic ground movement, speed of attacks, lag before and after attacks, control and maneuverability in the air, and an almost endless list of other character traits that varies widely across the roster.

-Wavedashing and dash-dancing improve your maneuverability on the ground.
-Shffling improves your approach game by giving you countless additional options for approach, from as simple as your 5 aerials being 5 options to empty shorthops to bait out spotdodges.

I could insert a bullet there for every techical aspect of Melee. These "glitches", as you call them, that Melee had gave players more options. You cannot "default" to shffling and wavedashing, those just give you options. You need to be able to know which option to pick. You need to think on your feet. More options is gameplay depth. Ergo, Melee was infinitly deeper, and a more competitive smash bros game than Brawl is at this moment.

What do you know, I can speak latin too.

 

[Kohr]

*block of text*

First off, no, I don't play smash bros of any kind competitively. Now then, in melee, there is probably 4, maybe 5 characters that can battle effectively in a tournament. Everyone else is sure to lose. Why? Too slow at wave-dashing and all other technical aspects of the game. Glitches don't give the game "infinite" depth (only 4, 5 techniques don't constitute "infinite"). These 4-5 characters don't give the game any depth whatsoever in the tournament scene, so that argument is invalid. Also, these glitches aren't more options. It's less. Because of the effectiveness of these techs, all other "options" are obsoleted. 1 Player (let's say Donkey Kong) can't compete effectively against a glitch-abusing player (Using Fox for the sake of argument) spamming wave-dashing and diamond-shining crap. This eliminates traditional play and only allows your "technical" aspects of the game any headway. Because of this, this eliminates a good 75% of the roster. That's seriously lacking some options there. I'm not saying that I play only for the visual aesthetics, far from it. It's just that because of brawl's balance (or melee's lack thereof) allows more characters to be a viable choice for tournament play, rather then the default Fox/Shiek/Marth bullcrap. Gameplay depth isn't about how fast and effectively you can defeat someone using the same ~3 characters over and over, but rather what you can accomplish on the battlefield to have the best time possible with any or all characters.

Note: Quasi-intellectual bull**** burning on the tip of your tongue doesn't make you look any smarter; just makes you come off more like an *******. This is all heresay.

tl;dr Brawl has more options and gameplay depth because you can use more characters effectively then in melee.

 

[Weed]

lawl at noobs saying brawl will wither and die

lawl



did i mention lawl

 

[FalconPunch]

First off, no, I don't play smash bros of any kind competitively. Now then, in melee, there is probably 4, maybe 5 characters that can battle effectively in a tournament. Everyone else is sure to lose. Why? Too slow at wave-dashing and all other technical aspects of the game. Glitches don't give the game "infinite" depth (only 4, 5 techniques don't constitute "infinite"). These 4-5 characters don't give the game any depth whatsoever in the tournament scene, so that argument is invalid. Also, these glitches aren't more options. It's less. Because of the effectiveness of these techs, all other "options" are obsoleted. 1 Player (let's say Donkey Kong) can't compete effectively against a glitch-abusing player (Using Fox for the sake of argument) spamming wave-dashing and diamond-shining crap. This eliminates traditional play and only allows your "technical" aspects of the game any headway. Because of this, this eliminates a good 75% of the roster. That's seriously lacking some options there. I'm not saying that I play only for the visual aesthetics, far from it. It's just that because of brawl's balance (or melee's lack thereof) allows more characters to be a viable choice for tournament play, rather then the default Fox/Shiek/Marth bullcrap. Gameplay depth isn't about how fast and effectively you can defeat someone using the same ~3 characters over and over, but rather what you can accomplish on the battlefield to have the best time possible with any or all characters.

Note: Quasi-intellectual bull**** burning on the tip of your tongue doesn't make you look any smarter; just makes you come off more like an *******. This is all heresay.

tl;dr Brawl has more options and gameplay depth because you can use more characters effectively then in melee.

March was a good month huh?

 

[Dartht33bagger]

Simple as this: Melee is a better game. Its faster paced and much better four tourniments.

 

[pikamon]

If Halo 2 and 3 are any example of how online play and new game mechanics can change things, Brawl is going to destroy Melee. The fact that you can compete online will keep this craze going for a long time. Sure, people will still get together to compete on Melee, but I'm certain those numbers will be significantly diminished. Melee was a great game (I loved it), but brawl has online play and a ton of new content (and don't forget sonic and snake).

Now, I do agree that Brawl has its flaws. I think anyone who played Melee competitively will agree that the slower speed and altered mechanics took a sour turn, but I don't think that these flaws are enough to stop the widespread appeal. And, honestly, just because most people can pick this game up and play it easier than they could with Melee is not reason to assume that Brawl won't use skill. Skill exists in every competitive game, and from what I've seen I don't think Brawl is any exception.

 

[Pye]

First off, no, I don't play smash bros of any kind competitively. Now then, in melee, there is probably 4, maybe 5 characters that can battle effectively in a tournament. Everyone else is sure to lose. Why? Too slow at wave-dashing and all other technical aspects of the game. Glitches don't give the game "infinite" depth (only 4, 5 techniques don't constitute "infinite"). These 4-5 characters don't give the game any depth whatsoever in the tournament scene, so that argument is invalid. Also, these glitches aren't more options. It's less. Because of the effectiveness of these techs, all other "options" are obsoleted. 1 Player (let's say Donkey Kong) can't compete effectively against a glitch-abusing player (Using Fox for the sake of argument) spamming wave-dashing and diamond-shining crap. This eliminates traditional play and only allows your "technical" aspects of the game any headway. Because of this, this eliminates a good 75% of the roster. That's seriously lacking some options there. I'm not saying that I play only for the visual aesthetics, far from it. It's just that because of brawl's balance (or melee's lack thereof) allows more characters to be a viable choice for tournament play, rather then the default Fox/Shiek/Marth bullcrap. Gameplay depth isn't about how fast and effectively you can defeat someone using the same ~3 characters over and over, but rather what you can accomplish on the battlefield to have the best time possible with any or all characters.

Note: Quasi-intellectual bull**** burning on the tip of your tongue doesn't make you look any smarter; just makes you come off more like an *******. This is all heresay.

tl;dr Brawl has more options and gameplay depth because you can use more characters effectively then in melee.

If you don't play smash bros competitively, what on earth makes you feel you can argue how competitive Brawl is compared to Melee?

We have two different definitions of "gameplay depth". You consider gameplay depth the ability to chose different characters and still stand a chance, while the entire competitive community, myself included, considers it what your choices are at an arbitrary time, in an arbitrary situation in an actual game.

I already explained why the ability to chose different characters is irrelevant in tournament play. Fact is, whether you can chose between 2 or 20 characters in a tournament doesn't really make a game great. Look at any great fighting game. Soul Calibur II is another one I play, and guess what? There are 4 "top" characters in that game, very much like smash bros. Is the game any less good? NO! It's one of the best, and it has a huge community of players, exactly like Melee does.

Also, what makes your entire argument obselete is that it's all speculation. Who are you to say Brawl is balanced? Melee was balanced ~2 months after its release too. You could pick any character you wanted and could potentially do well. Brawl's metagame will evolve. More "glitches" will be discovered, abused and perfected. Characters with more options will rise to the top, and characters lacking options will fall out of favor. Look back at any and all fighters still being played today. They all started off balanced, and they all evolved to their current metagames, where there are probably a few characters who reign in tournament play.

Should this not happen with Brawl by some miracle, it would be a tragedy from a competitive standpoint. Right now, in Brawl, there is absolutely no reason to approach your opponent. The defending player has such a ridiculous advantage because of the removal of approach options (yes, I'm talking about the removal of wavedashing, dashdancing and l-canceling) combined with the powerful new shield mechanics that VERY few characters can safely approach their opponents. I think Marth and Meta Knight are the only two.

How can you consider such a game "deep"? The game encourages camping and turtling. There's no way into a shielding opponent for most characters. If things keep up like this, not only will my "gameplay depth" be devastated as there are little to no options compared to Melee for a given senario, but your "gameplay depth" will -also- be devastated as characters will good projectiles will reign supreme, since they don't have to approach.

Finally, while the advanced techniques in Melee didn't provide infinite depth, it was **** close, and if you played competitively you'd agree with me. Those 4 or 5 techniques multiplied the number of choices players had to make every second exponentially. This is not an exageration.

I'd also like to apologize for coming off like a smart-*** in my first post, it was rather snappy, and I don't really mean to start a fight. I take back any personal attacks I put in there, but I still don't agree with you.

EDIT: pikamon, I may be wrong about this because I haven't heard that much about it, but I'm pretty sure Halo 2 is considered by many, many people to be a better, deeper game than Halo 3 for competitive play. Again, I'm shaky on this one, I don't really know. I don't have time to check sources now though, I'll look later tonight and come back here.

 

[mark.]

dont worry, brawl isnt as as good as we hoped it to be.

 

[~GregDang!~]

Brawl will probably die off in a couple of months or by the end of the year.

 

[Weed]

dont worry, brawl isnt as as good as we hoped it to be.

define we

while you're at it, define how you think people will care how you twist reassuring statements into potshots at brawl, when no one is forcing you to play it.

 

[AXE 09]

First off, no, I don't play smash bros of any kind competitively. Now then, in melee, there is probably 4, maybe 5 characters that can battle effectively in a tournament. Everyone else is sure to lose.

you know, i've noticed that MOST of the people who play smash competetively like melee better, and MOST of the people who don't play competetively like brawl better. if you were an advanced player in melee, i'm sure you'd understand why we argue with you.

also, not all of the best players use only those 4 or 5 characters. i'm ranked 7th in Arizona and my best character is pikachu

don't you just love pikachu? =D -->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq_pDoof_OQ

oh and Weed, i play both melee and brawl. just because i like melee better than brawl doesn't mean that i refuse to play brawl. brawl's a very fun game, no doubt, but i just like melee better

 

[Toadster5]

Why did Nintendo cater to the players whose games will be collecting dust after a month, no matter how deep the game is? These people would have bought the game even if it was exactly like Melee with new characters. Did they not see the potential that this game had as a competitive title? With competitive gaming on the rise, this game could have garnered massive publicity for Nintendo. It's like they intentionally slapped the competitive community in the face because they really don't need it to thrive.

The development teams behind Street Fighter 4 and Starcraft 2 are incredible examples of great competitively oriented developers. They work with the people that play their games at competitive levels and try their hardest to please their most loyal fans. Nintendo could learn a thing or two from them, but they don't really need to because most of their audience will buy any kind of garbage with Mario or Pikachu slapped on the cover

 

[Grand Mango]

First off, no, I don't play smash bros of any kind competitively.

tl;dr Brawl has more options and gameplay depth because you can use more characters effectively then in melee.

Wall of text didn't read anything else.

Here's a tl;dr from everyone in the smash community that counts, which means it excludes dumb ****s like yourself.

MONEY MATCH?

No?

Then shut the **** up.

All people like you do is ***** and moan about how we are better than you because we understand the game more. How about if you think a certain way about a game prove it to us with your knowledge and ability to try to beat competitive players.

Next point you are just going to argue has to do with something like "i have a life i don't play competitive" and well if that's your case let me say this again.

Shut the **** up.

 

[NoVaLombardia]

Hi, im a scrub

I started playing smash bros about 2 1/2 months ago

I like melee better

K bye

 

[Winston]

Lol @ person who admits to not having played any competitive smash at all arguing about how brawl is more competitive.

Seriously, guy, you're the best.

 

[Puffer]

I'm glad to see that some Melee players share my view on this - hopefully the Melee competitive scene will continue to thrive with this kind of support. There's no excuse to let Brawl dominate a perfectly good Smash game (at least in offline tournaments; let 'em play online if they want).

Also, I'm a bit bothered by some of the arguments I've seen here AGAINST Melee - mainly, to the people who think that the "glitches" and "exploits" ruin the game and "take away" from its depth. Pye actually summed it up quite nicely already, but if I could add to what he said, I'd say that those "glitches" and "exploits" are what made Melee what it is in the first place. Things like L-canceling, teching, wavedashing, dash-dancing, and shield-canceling give the player more choices than he/she would have otherwise. It's also important to realize that using advanced techniques does not make you automatically win. In fact, some people try too hard to use things like wavedashing and dashdancing just for the sake of using advanced techniques, and because they don't know how to use it, it hurts their game more than it helps it. Basically, advanced techniques aren't the universal solution to every problem. You have to know WHEN and HOW to use them and mix them with other "basic" gameplay elements. But yes, Pye already explained that.

And whoever thinks that Brawl will beat Melee because of "online play", think again. Just because other companies like Blizzard, Bungie, and Valve pulled that trick doesn't mean that Nintendo will...especially because Brawl was obviously not made for high-level competitive play at ALL. Competitive gaming companies usually craft their games specifically for competitive players - this was not done with Brawl; rather, Sakurai decided to turn it into a "party game" that would suit a bunch of daycare toddlers better than competitive gamers. Online Brawl games will be nothing like online games of Halo, or CS, or StarCraft, or WarCraft III...and for that reason, I doubt Brawl will have a fighting chance against the competitive Melee community.


And everyone should read this now if they didn't read it before:

Why did Nintendo cater to the players whose games will be collecting dust after a month, no matter how deep the game is? These people would have bought the game even if it was exactly like Melee with new characters. Did they not see the potential that this game had as a competitive title? With competitive gaming on the rise, this game could have garnered massive publicity for Nintendo. It's like they intentionally slapped the competitive community in the face because they really don't need it to thrive.

The development teams behind Street Fighter 4 and Starcraft 2 are incredible examples of great competitively oriented developers. They work with the people that play their games at competitive levels and try their hardest to please their most loyal fans. Nintendo could learn a thing or two from them, but they don't really need to because most of their audience will buy any kind of garbage with Mario or Pikachu slapped on the cover

He's absolutely right, isn't he? Melee had a HUGE amount of competitive potential, whether or not Nintendo intended it to. They should have recognized the profit behind that and milked it for all it was worth; instead, they threw it away and trashed most of what made Melee great. I admit, I was kinda getting my hopes up that Sakurai would make Brawl into an "advanced" version of Melee...hah. So much for that. Even the original Smash64 has more potential than Brawl, sadly. Had Nintendo actually turned Brawl into a hardcore competitive game, they might be enjoying additional financial boosting from competitive sponsors and high-level tournaments - but no, they won't be getting that now. If ever.

And, like Toadster5 mentioned, part of the problem is that Nintendo doesn't even need to cater to competitive players - there's enough fanboys out there that will drool over every game that Nintendo puts out and buy it without even reading the price tag. Nintendo was never a "competitive" gaming company, and they're generating enough profit as it is without having to venture into the world of competitive gaming. Commercialization is an ugly thing indeed - ironically, if Nintendo was poorer and actually needed more money, they might have been more willing to try tapping into the competitive gaming market. Now I doubt they'll ever attempt such a feat. So yeah - for those of you who were waiting for a ground-breaking "competitive" Smash game, guess what? You've still got Melee. And Street Fighter. And StarCraft.

 

[NOVA1106]

yeah puffer has a good point melee is still better online brawl sucks it lags.brawl is just another mario party

 

[AXE 09]

yeah puffer has a good point melee is still better online brawl sucks it lags.brawl is just another mario party

but... i actually like mario party lol. fun stuff

 

[Kohr]

Wall of text didn't read anything else.

Here's a tl;dr from everyone in the smash community that counts, which means it excludes dumb ****s like yourself.

MONEY MATCH?

No?

Then shut the **** up.

All people like you do is ***** and moan about how we are better than you because we understand the game more. How about if you think a certain way about a game prove it to us with your knowledge and ability to try to beat competitive players.

Next point you are just going to argue has to do with something like "i have a life i don't play competitive" and well if that's your case let me say this again.

Shut the **** up.

Rofl.

MONEY MATCH?

Oh wait, it's brawl?

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW!!

Why dont you stuff a **** in it. Right down your throat, *******.

You, a "competitive" player played brawl without your godly techs, you ***** and moan.

You whine and **** at the loss of your precious exploits, and this down-play a great game. Next point you are just going to argue has to do with "i don't have a life so i try to make moanis off broken gaems!1" and well if that's your case let me say this again.

Stuff a **** in it. Right down your throat, *******.

I may not have the most time in the world, but enough to point out that you detract from quality, intelligent conversation. Get the fux out of my office.

Brawl, nor Melee, were ment for competitive scene. I'm glad there is one, as it gives me a chance to prove myself, but to downplay a game due to balance and more party-oriented environment is just flat out bigotry. Melee is still fun, but the quality of the Brawl experience (again, for those who don't read, this is heresay) is superior due to a number of added game mechanics.

 

[Stewie1288]

This thread is full of win. I'm a melee fan, I've played through brawl and just don't like the nature of it at all. And like countless others have said: Kohr, I have no idea how you can comment on the competitive nature of a game that you've never played competitively.

 

[Randomg]

You whine and **** at the loss of your precious exploits, and this down-play a great game. Next point you are just going to argue has to do with "i don't have a life so i try to make moanis off broken gaems!1" and well if that's your case let me say this again.

Brawl, nor Melee, were ment for competitive scene. I'm glad there is one, as it gives me a chance to prove myself, but to downplay a game due to balance and more party-oriented environment is just flat out bigotry. Melee is still fun, but the quality of the Brawl experience (again, for those who don't read, this is heresay) is superior due to a number of added game mechanics.

I wonder if you'll reply to this, oh well.

Exploits... were limited to wavedashing. Stop using it as a plural. The exploit, in general gave more characters a fighting chance (think about how important dash dancing was, now imagine if only a handful of characters could change direction that quickly, instead of nearly all of them with the wavedash).

Stop talking like you can't win with other than the 5 characters... the smarter players could win with anyone (go search taj and mewtwo, chu and pichu, azen with any1). At the highest level, yes, the high and top tiers pulled away, but it sounds like you just made character excuses for not playing smarter than your opponent.

Melee wasn't meant for a competitive scene, but thrived in it. We were all hoping that brawl would continue to support it, but it focused more on the casual player, that's disappointing for people on this board who haven't joined in the last 6 months to start looking into brawl.

Downplaying a game because it took away a lot of what you liked from its predecessor is not bigotry. Analyzing the reasons that things were changed usually comes up with something along the lines of "well, now joe shmoe can do better".

Maybe you can explain the "number of added game mechanics". They all but removed comboing, they all but removed edge guarding, they removed l-canceling, wavedashing... they added multiple air dodges and made all characters more like luigi and jiggs as far as mechanics. So far everything found has not had much use (b-sticking looks pretty pointless from what I've seen so far).

Oh, and people are already finding infinite chain throws on characters, it took years to find wobbling in melee and even more years to exploit it well. Yeah, amazingly balanced...

Great game? Sure, but not as fun as melee (so far) with 3 other people that are around your level of play.

 

[Zankoku]

Brawl, nor Melee, were ment for competitive scene. I'm glad there is one, as it gives me a chance to prove myself, but to downplay a game due to balance and more party-oriented environment is just flat out bigotry. Melee is still fun, but the quality of the Brawl experience (again, for those who don't read, this is heresay) is superior due to a number of added game mechanics.

Balance, balance, added game mechanics, balance. What the hell is all this I hear about balance and new stuff in Brawl?

Almost everyone agrees on which characters are ridiculously good in Brawl (Meta Knight, Toon Link, Marth, Pit, and then a lot of support for Dedede, ROB, Olimar, G&W). Does having 6-7 characters out of a 35-character cast appear to have better variety than the 4-5 out of 26 to you? Just because the new top group of characters doesn't include most of the top tier in Melee (Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Peach all got changed dramatically. Marth is still stupid good.) doesn't mean everything's balanced all of a sudden.

If anything, Brawl is less balanced than Melee because though it may or may not have more viable characters (of which all were in Melee, to a certain point), defensive play has already established itself as the dominant and at the current rate things are going only style usable in competitive tournament play.

And what are these added game mechanics? Footstool jumping? All they did was make every character have extremely different timings, hitboxen, and styles on their attacks so that you can't pick up a new character with only general play knowledge immediately. The only truly new thing that was only seen with Samus in Melee is the momentum tricks that Lucas can do. Oh wait, what? Something a character can do that wasn't intended to happen? Well, I guess Brawl found its first exploits already. WITHIN A MONTH'S TIME.

 

[BlackPanther]

I agree with you Ankoku. And what is it with all these **** nubs that joined at the release of Brawl just to put in their .1 cent and not even be an intelligent post. All you newbies have done so far is join make one comment like, "OMG Brawl is so much better than Melee!." And not even play Melee competitive you just wanna talk trash. Brawls mechanics sucks balls to the wall. The physics and lack of hit stun means that there is no more comboing which was a good way to punish someone for ****ing up or bein caught up in somethin that you were doin but now you get punished for attempting to combo someone in this game. Tripping is a big no no, what dumb **** puts somethin like that in a game, any game?

On a casual level Brawl is a big step forward, but on a competitive level this is a big step backwards and I wish all the veterans who did move to Brawl would realize this. For those don't realize it are just babies who were tired of losing and now have a chance to get good at a game that they don't have to try so hard at.

Melee forever!

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

Blah Blah Blah Bull****

After saying you did not play competitively, you should have stopped there. If you aren't part of the community, you have no right to define it.

Brawl is not as balanced as Melee because the most viable strategy, camping, can not be employed, or countered by every character in Brawl.

In melee this was also slightly true, but to a lesser degree. Advanced techniques allowed everyone to move at a higher that average speed, and combos were unique because of character weight, size, and falling speed. Now it's who has better projectiles, and don't worry about any skills involved with comboing or chasing DI.

EDIT:

@BlackPanther: I agree with everything you posted. A lot of people in my area have been acting this way. Too many people tried to vindicate themselves by getting good at Brawl because they were not willing to put in the effort for melee (Read: Tried... meaning failed, because they are still bad and do not understand the game at all).

 

[kennypoopoo]

I have been playing melee basically from the day it came out obviously when i first started i wasn't wavedashing or shffl, **** i didnt even know you could shield grab untill about 2 years ago. I still managed to improve and use techniques with my character to give me an advantage. With that said 1.5 years ago or so i discovered SWF creeped around without an account for a couple months and learned advanced techs and how to use them and it really does open up so many more options for you. It makes life easier. Brawl is a fun game but it definitely doesn't compare to melee it is simple and if you understand mindgames and the basics of competitive gaming its not hard to play at all. My friend has owned it since the day it came out and he brought it over like 3 days ago and i beat him my first couple matches with characters ive never used before no problem. It wasn't for the fact he was a total n00b. We used t play melee everyday then he started getting frustrated because he refused to use advanced techs and never improved past where he was and quit melee like 6 months before brawl came out. He loves brawl said he would never play melee again so i dont know it depends on your personality which you will prefer i personally like both but if i had to choose would pick melee and not lose any sleep over it.


P.S if you like brawl and feel the urge to talk about it i believe we have a
brawl forum now so have fun with all your DLX hit canceling and such

P.P.S Sorry grammar is not my thing but most of it is spelled right

 

[Zema]

I have been playing melee basically from the day it came out obviously when i first started i wasn't wavedashing or shffl, **** i didnt even know you could shield grab untill about 2 years ago. I still managed to improve and use techniques with my character to give me an advantage. With that said 1.5 years ago or so i discovered SWF creeped around without an account for a couple months and learned advanced techs and how to use them and it really does open up so many more options for you. It makes life easier. Brawl is a fun game but it definitely doesn't compare to melee it is simple and if you understand mindgames and the basics of competitive gaming its not hard to play at all. My friend has owned it since the day it came out and he brought it over like 3 days ago and i beat him my first couple matches with characters ive never used before no problem. It wasn't for the fact he was a total n00b. We used t play melee everyday then he started getting frustrated because he refused to use advanced techs and never improved past where he was and quit melee like 6 months before brawl came out. He loves brawl said he would never play melee again so i dont know it depends on your personality which you will prefer i personally like both but if i had to choose would pick melee and not lose any sleep over it.

Oh my god. I didn't understand anything. Talk straight.

Like, with actual words.

And paragraphs.

 

[NoVaLombardia]

First off, no, I don't play smash bros of any kind competitively

So Kohr...

if you don't competitively play smash bros of any kind (thats a present tense directed towards smash 64, melee, **AND Brawl**), why do you insist on pushing your mindless blabber? If you don't play competitive at all you'll never have to deal with these said pros.

kthxdie

 

[Pye]

You, a "competitive" player played brawl without your godly techs, you ***** and moan.

You whine and **** at the loss of your precious exploits, and this down-play a great game. Next point you are just going to argue has to do with "i don't have a life so i try to make moanis off broken gaems!1" and well if that's your case let me say this again.

Brawl, nor Melee, were ment for competitive scene. I'm glad there is one, as it gives me a chance to prove myself, but to downplay a game due to balance and more party-oriented environment is just flat out bigotry. Melee is still fun, but the quality of the Brawl experience (again, for those who don't read, this is heresay) is superior due to a number of added game mechanics.

Pardon me? Nobody here is scared to play Brawl because the gameplay is different, and we lost many of our advanced techniques. Fact is, advanced techniques or not, a competitive player would wipe the floor with a casual player in SSB64, Melee and/or Brawl, no questions asked.

You don't seem to understand that Melee advanced techniques didn't make the player. The advanced techniques are only needed when playing against other competitive players, but if I go play against casual players, I don't need to wavedash or dashdance or shffl to win. The only reason I would need them is if I wanted more options in game, to psych out an opponent who thinks better, and has all those extra options himself.

Your "competitive play is a chance to prove yourself" is a laughable comment, seeing as how you've already admitted you've never been to a tourny, and you obviously don't understand what advanced techniques do for a player.

We're not downplaying Brawl because of it's "balance" (Brawl is NOT more balanced than Melee. I explained that in a previous post of mine, and Ankoku added even more to it in his post) and its party oriented gameplay. We're downplaying it because all the depth it had from Melee was removed completely. Before you start to point out why I'm wrong, remember that depth isn't how many characters you can chose from, depth is how many mid-match options you have.

In Melee, you want to approach your opponent, you can dash-dance to force a reaction, you can shffl an aerial and, thanks to l-canceling, you have a number of choices after that, depending on whether your opponent shielded the hit or not, where you landed relative to him, and what character you are/your opponent is. You could simply grab if you think he's expecting an aerial and will shield. You could approach and wavedash back to see what he does. There are many, many more choices, some of them involving advanced techniques, and some of them not. Nothing is obselete.

In Brawl, if you want to approach your opponent...you pick Marth or Meta Knight and hope your opponent doesn't know the full potential of his shield. That's the amazing depth of Brawl.

Brawl is not currently a competitive game, that's not contestable. Maybe one day, a year, two years from now, a technique(s) will be discovered that will make it competitive, but I'd bet money that doesn't happen. Brawl is a party game, and nothing more. Itemless 1v1s are just not doable now. Maybe competitive play will incorperate items? I don't know. But as it stands, it's a totally futile point to argue that Brawl is deeper than Melee.

Also, it's hearsay.

 

[memphischains]

this is all based on opinion. no one is going to win this argument.

its agreeing to disagree. everyone stfu and accept that brawl is a popular game, and only a fraction of melee players will continue to play. thats not to say that no one will play melee, but a lot of people want to play a new game. i totally agree that melee is a better game, but for right now brawl is where the audience is so let it be.

 

[Puffer]

I'd like to make sure that everyone here understand something: I'm not trying to say that Brawl is a bad game "in general." In fact, as far as most games go, it's a pretty good one: lots of fun to play, lots of unlockable elements (characters, stickers, stages, trophies, music, etc.), and a lot of "original" game content for those who remember the old NES and SNES days.

HOWEVER - what I AM saying is that, for a competitive community, Brawl is not worth obsessing over. It simply cannot compare to Melee in terms of competitive elements such as technical skill, mindgames, overall difficulty, etc.. It's already pretty obvious that Brawl exhibits a significantly smaller skill gap between "good" players and "bad" players, and this is a direct reflection of that lack of technical skill. Because there's physically less in the game to learn and practice, there's less differentiation between skilled players and not-so-skilled players.

And yes, to the poster who made the comment that NONE of the Smash games were "made" to be competitive, I agree - that's true. Smash64 and Melee were certainly not crafted to be "competitive", but they turned out to be anyway because there were enough people searching through those games to find enough "material" to MAKE those games competitive. The difference with Brawl is that it seems like Nintendo actually TRIED to make the game LESS competitive, which is a huge no-no...if they'd kept the mechanics the same and just stuck in a few new characters, the game would have been more competitive than it is now (of course, it wouldn't be all that "new" of a game then, but you get the point).

So that's what I'm saying - Brawl isn't necessarily a "bad" game...it's just not competitive.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

First off, no, I don't play smash bros of any kind competitively. Now then, in melee, there is probably 4, maybe 5 characters that can battle effectively in a tournament. Everyone else is sure to lose. Why? Too slow at wave-dashing and all other technical aspects of the game. Glitches don't give the game "infinite" depth (only 4, 5 techniques don't constitute "infinite"). These 4-5 characters don't give the game any depth whatsoever in the tournament scene, so that argument is invalid. Also, these glitches aren't more options. It's less. Because of the effectiveness of these techs, all other "options" are obsoleted. 1 Player (let's say Donkey Kong) can't compete effectively against a glitch-abusing player (Using Fox for the sake of argument) spamming wave-dashing and diamond-shining crap. This eliminates traditional play and only allows your "technical" aspects of the game any headway. Because of this, this eliminates a good 75% of the roster. That's seriously lacking some options there. I'm not saying that I play only for the visual aesthetics, far from it. It's just that because of brawl's balance (or melee's lack thereof) allows more characters to be a viable choice for tournament play, rather then the default Fox/Shiek/Marth bullcrap. Gameplay depth isn't about how fast and effectively you can defeat someone using the same ~3 characters over and over, but rather what you can accomplish on the battlefield to have the best time possible with any or all characters.

Note: Quasi-intellectual bull**** burning on the tip of your tongue doesn't make you look any smarter; just makes you come off more like an *******. This is all heresay.

tl;dr Brawl has more options and gameplay depth because you can use more characters effectively then in melee.

You're an idiot and you don't know what you're talking about. Don't post anymore.

 

[akuma-ken]

this is to kohr-

pye ****ing PWND you.

srry, but itz true.

ROFL

 

[Hao]

This is my favourite thread. Ever. Not only has this guy been pwned rather badly, some pretty intelligent and worthwhile things have been said.

Quick question: To players like Gimpyfish, Hugs and other people who now have Brawl. What do you guys think? Many of this argument is hearsay and by people who still haven't played Brawl*

*My assumption. If Pye, Puffer, Ankoku etc. have played Brawl then good

 

[Fabrian]

Melee was gay... sick and tired of seeing 15 marths 10 shieks 5 fox and 5 falcons at tournaments...
It just shows the lack of balance this game carried. Admit it, you've never seen a bowser, a mewtwo, or I don't even recall Ice climbers winning anything highly competitive...