I feel "Counter" moves should be tweaked a bit

[Deleted member]

Ever since Melee, my favorite fighting game, and I experienced counters, I always felt they were kind of annoying. However, I think the reason for that being didn't really dawn on me til now because I've adapted to countering with grabs many years ago. As it stands, counters generally prevent any and all moves outside of a grab, so depending on the character, slow characters for example, it's not quite easy to punish them and slow characters can easily be baited.

Countering in this game is the strongest it's ever been, deadly even in the right hands, but I think the issue with countering is not that it stops all attacks, not that you can do it in the air despite it being a ground animation, or even the potency, the real issue is this:

Counters can stop moves from every single direction despite the counter blocking in one direction. Let's use Little Mac and Lucina as an example. With Little Mac, he prepares for a blow in-front of him, but if you attack from behind he immediately turns around despite not being able to see the opponent and know what's going on. With Lucina, she is using her sword in a defensive stance preparing to deflect a blow from in-front of her, and despite hitting her from the back, she deflects it.

I find as far as common sense goes, this is already something that should not be happening, but this is a video game so we have to use 'video game sense', and what works in-game together as a cohesive experience. I find that countering, the more you delve into it, is more so unfair to slower characters, ones that cannot grab or punish as efficiently as the fast characters. Their speed flaw is to keep them balanced, but countering and the way it works doesn't give them much strategy other than to guess what the opponent is going to do, or hope the slower character can grab in time which is already rather tough due to the speed they lack.

Countering I feel should have another means of fighting against for balance purposes and that proposal is to make it so that you can only counter moves from in-front of you, but your back becomes vulnerable. It's not so much a matter of countering being "broken", but more so something that should be changed for a better gameplay experience for the cast as a whole. Honestly, countering the way it is now is a bit silly since it stops from all directions imo.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

It’s even worse when the earthling apparently only knows Counter... the battle just becomes boring, because you have to wait to counter the Counter. If I am not wrong, the slower guys can use the Pivot grab. Isn’t it faster and has more range?

 

[Superyoshiom]

I hate counters, they make it harder to string those satisfying combos.

 

[stancosmos]

Ever since Melee, my favorite fighting game, and I experienced counters, I always felt they were kind of annoying. However, I think the reason for that being didn't really dawn on me til now because I've adapted to countering with grabs many years ago. As it stands, counters generally prevent any and all moves outside of a grab, so depending on the character, slow characters for example, it's not quite easy to punish them and slow characters can easily be baited.

Countering in this game is the strongest it's ever been, deadly even in the right hands, but I think the issue with countering is not that it stops all attacks, not that you can do it in the air despite it being a ground animation, or even the potency, the real issue is this:

Counters can stop moves from every single direction despite the counter blocking in one direction. Let's use Little Mac and Lucina as an example. With Little Mac, he prepares for a blow in-front of him, but if you attack from behind he immediately turns around despite not being able to see the opponent and know what's going on. With Lucina, she is using her sword in a defensive stance preparing to deflect a blow from in-front of her, and despite hitting her from the back, she deflects it.

I find as far as common sense goes, this is already something that should not be happening, but this is a video game so we have to use 'video game sense', and what works in-game together as a cohesive experience. I find that countering, the more you delve into it, is more so unfair to slower characters, ones that cannot grab or punish as efficiently as the fast characters. Their speed flaw is to keep them balanced, but countering and the way it works doesn't give them much strategy other than to guess what the opponent is going to do, or hope the slower character can grab in time which is already rather tough due to the speed they lack.

Countering I feel should have another means of fighting against for balance purposes and that proposal is to make it so that you can only counter moves from in-front of you, but your back becomes vulnerable. It's not so much a matter of countering being "broken", but more so something that should be changed for a better gameplay experience for the cast as a whole. Honestly, countering the way it is now is a bit silly since it stops from all directions imo.

Logistically it should only happen in front of you. But for the sake of the game, countering doesn't need a Nerf. It's not that common at higher levels, and they are actually quite dangerous to use because of the massive amount of ending lag. I've killed many marths and little macs simply by charging a smash, and waiting for the counter frames to run out then letting go. Counters definitely don't need to be any less useful than they already are. Honestly if you learn to bait a counter, you'll be glad your opponent has a counter. Especially with slow characters, Basically any character can land an FSmash on a character if they wait an extra second for them to counter, and with characters like bowser that's usually a kill. If anything I'd say the heavy hitters gain the most from other characters having counters.

 

[Raijinken]

Counters are so punishable and situational that if you're getting hit by them, frankly your combo wasn't safe and your opponent read you like a neon sign.

They're FINALLY decent as killing punishes to the obvious (save Roy's before), but still... they're pretty terrible since you have to run into them.

 

[ReturningFall]

If you keep getting hit by counters, consider playing more defensively and from a farther range.

Counters simply slow the game down a bit from a combo standpoint. Don't go attacking on a hair trigger and you'll find most counters are actually easy baits. Shielding beats countering as you can drop shield faster than they can stop countering. In many cases a smash attack is often in order as a punish.

 

[Deleted member]

If you keep getting hit by counters, consider playing more defensively and from a farther range.

Counters simply slow the game down a bit from a combo standpoint. Don't go attacking on a hair trigger and you'll find most counters are actually easy baits. Shielding beats countering as you can drop shield faster than they can stop countering. In many cases a smash attack is often in order as a punish.

It mainly happens in matches where I use, for example, Zelda against Little Mac, when the characters move faster than your character do and can out roll you while also having a counter ready, It's tough to zone or get in close depending on the character.

When you say shielding, are you saying you can shield during their counter of your attack?

Counters are so punishable and situational that if you're getting hit by them, frankly your combo wasn't safe and your opponent read you like a neon sign.

They're FINALLY decent as killing punishes to the obvious (save Roy's before), but still... they're pretty terrible since you have to run into them.

The issue I have with them is not that they have killing power now, but that they work from behind. They can already be used during a misplaced jab, used as recovery in some cases, also used in the air, I think in-actuality their utility is pretty good it's just not something you spam. I just personally find that you shouldn't be rewarded for countering something behind your character and making it this way is a bit more reasonable.

 

[Raijinken]

The issue I have with them is not that they have killing power now, but that they work from behind. They can already be used during a misplaced jab, used as recovery in some cases, also used in the air, I think in-actuality their utility is pretty good it's just not something you spam. I just personally find that you shouldn't be rewarded for countering something behind your character and making it this way is a bit more reasonable.

Well, just look at Marth and Lucina's animation (maybe others). It shows the Newtype-esque lightning bolt of observational skills. So pretend it's not them blocking and countering, but dodging and retaliating with extreme speeds.

At the very least Shulk's visions make perfect sense in that way.

It just doesn't make sense to make such a mediocre, situational, and punishable move even worse by making it only affect one direction. Especially while Pocket and Oil Panic are far more potent and practically cover their character's hurtboxes from projectile damage.

 

[HeavyMetalSonic]

I find if someone keeps spamming counter too much (I main Sonic, you know it's gonna happen when an opponent has no idea how to handle him), I tend to go in for grabs alot more. I'm either gonna grab them, or I'll miss with the grab (it happens, especially with characters with wierd lunges in their grabs like Falcon or Pikachu) and they'll be stuck in an animation for a while and I can usually punish with a tilt. It scares them out of spamming counter all the time I find, so there's less chance of them throwing them out all the time.

Lucario has the easiest counter to punish I find, because he spends so long waving his arms about and doesn't really have any decent moves to retaliate with. Shulk is similar too, and if I run into an USmash with Sonic he quite often shoots underneath me with his counter. At least that's how they seem to me.

 

[ReturningFall]

When you say shielding, are you saying you can shield during their counter of your attack?

Sometimes you can (Greninja and Shulk can be really weird sometimes).

Really I meant you notice they start countering and make a move like you are adjusting your spaceing to attack and instead run to shield to see if they attack or counter. So long as you don't get too close, you shouldn't get grabbed too often. If they attack you now have a slight advantage and if they counter you can drop shield faster than they can stop countering. If they do nothing, you're now stuck in shield. What exactly happens next is of course matchup dependent.

It mainly happens in matches where I use, for example, Zelda against Little Mac, when the characters move faster than your character do and can out roll you while also having a counter ready

Sometimes I feel Zelda has no options at any given moment. This might be more matchup dependent than the board is letting on.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

The only thing I hate about counters is when you have someone in a continuous jab and the jab of the character your using doesn't connect with all of the hits and the opponent can down b you in the middle of your continuous jab. For example Rosalina and Luma.

 

[Ryuji]

I don't necessarily think counters are bad. They're just too frequent because of all the characters who have it now. I have to disagree with them needing to be tweaked though. You can generally read your opponent and predict when they're going to use counter, especially if they do it alot. I've also noticed in certain situations, such as when fighting Little Mac for example, will almost always use counter in midair due to his weak air game. You can also expect Palutena not to use it very much at all. It's mostly the sword users who use it the most. You mentioned that grabbing is your only option. Let me suggest another: projectiles! While these can be countered, you more than likely won't be hit by these and whomever is using counter will quickly cease because they're wasting their counter's power and duration unnecessarily (while simultaneously not being able to counter them all mind you, thus taking damage). Easy way to bait them to attack.
I get what you're saying though about countering moves when hit from behind. It just doesn't compute. Now that needs to be tweaked.

 

[JipC]

They're so dumb in this game. HUGE window, most of them are actually really strong now with killing potential, and during the actual counter window you can't grab some of them
Take the grab-armor off and make the window slightly shorter for some of them (Shulk's counter window gimmick is needlessly convoluted too)

 

[anas abou]

am i the only one who think counters should have super armor to work with multi hit attacks ?

 

[sogeki]

#wordtoshulk. His counter is ridiculous.

 

[Sleek Media]

You can charge smashes for a reason.

 

[Valkauv]

#wordtoshulk. His counter is ridiculous.

Most powerful in the game and could be made to have ~2.5 increased knockback on the ground, as well as a mobility option?
HECK YES.

 

[OnettSlugger]

petition to get rid of counters!! haha

 

[GhostUrsa]

Counters in general have been the most fair they've been since their introduction to Smash as a series. Their start up frames have been changes so they can't be used reactively like they used to be in Melee or Brawl. (In other threads, I remember reading that they are a frame or 2 later than they used to be so the user has to have more forethought into their use.) Two of the directional counters have large enough startups after the counter attacks start that you can DI away from them in the air or sometimes dash-dance out of it depending on the defender's angle. All the swordsman can only counter attack horizontally (They can be triggered from a hit from any direction since it's a block that hits back) and only Shulk steps back a little before doing so which give him more range during it.

Shulk's counter is probably the only annoying one since the range can be surprising, but nothing that practice doesn't fix. (Though the start up frames are pretty fast compared to other characters. I think only Mac's is faster, but I don't have the frame data to verify) The active frames for all counters are the same from what I've read in other threads, though some have better cooldowns than others. (Ike, for example, takes a little longer to start up the counter, but has less lag at the end.)

Counters are a high risk/high reward move by design, so most of the time they only connect against a reckless attack or a calculated read (they set you up so you only have one option, and they can counter it.) By the logic given in the OP we should have block only work if the attack is from the front as well, since the character only can block stuff in front of him in the real world too. Since this is a 3rd person fighter that behaves like a platformer more than other 2D fighters, player awareness is more important than character facing. It's why spot dodging works against attacks from all directions instead of only attacks coming from the front (which is where the character can see).

The character's 'facing' is technically an illusion for our eyes, as the engine itself doesn't care what way your facing. There is no real turning animation for most actions (unless they are momentum actions, like sprinting or jumping) to ensure the player can react to whatever is coming their way, like turning around during a group fight to react to something the player sees.

Good game design is supposed to give the player maximum control available in the situation in relation to the world/engine designed. Such a change to counter change would make pulling counters off so difficult in such a spacial game as Smash that it would deliberately destroy the characters that rely on them. Matters of balance have dictated which character have counters and why they work the way they do. Almost all the characters with counters have limitations that the counter is supposed to help alleviate. (All the swordsman have no ranged abilities to help control the stage, some are even slower than other characters, other characters have reduced aerial maneuverability or are weaker at lower % than other characters)

 

[themasterofcircuits]

To be honest, the only characters with justifyable counters are Marth, Roy, Ike, Lucina, Shulk, and Little Mac. I mean, as far as characters like Lucario, Palutena, and Greninja go, I'm pretty sure they ran out of ideas for moves and somebody was just like "Just give em' a counter"

Though I main Shulk and when I use his counter more than once in 30 seconds my friends get so pissed at me. I understand that, it's kinda cheap xD

 

[DavemanCozy]

Completely disagree.

The purpose of counter moves is to give the character with the move an option of fending back an opponent that is coming at them with an attack. At the same time, they are by no means safe: failing a counter will result in suffering the cool-down of retreating to normal fighting stance, something that is very punishable. This creates a high risk, high reward of using the move, which is perfect and the way they should be.

Consider this scenario: vs .
Fox has juggled Marth in the air with U-titls, U-airs, etc. Marth is now at KO percent (let's say ~110%) while Fox has taken a couple stray hits and he's at mid-high percent (let's say ~85%). At this point, Marth getting juggled runs a risk of using his counter:

1. On the one hand, Fox could simply do an empty jump doing nothing and bait the counter, which would mean Marth is slowly falling as the animation ends, and Fox could be waiting on the ground charging an Up-Smash. Marth is KO'd no question.
2. On the other hand, Marth would predict correctly that Fox is going to jump at him with another U-air, which if countered will KO Fox for getting greedy.

The 50/50 Rock Paper Scissors here make countering highly risky but highly rewarding. Nerfing the counter to only hit at the front means you've just made countering way too risky and probably completely useless: all Fox has to do is face Marth's back and jump at him with a B-air, which will KO him if he's near the edge of the stage or put him offstage at least. The high reward won't be worth it.

Another scenario: vs .
Wario has successfully sent Little Mac offstage, and Little Mac no doubt is sweating to make it back. Wario has a very strong aerial presence with Jigglypuff air movement, and his edge-guarding game is very strong. Again, two scenarios:

1. Little Mac chooses to counter, but Wario simply does an empty jump. Not only is Little Mac now having to wait out the counter to end, but he's also falling while he's offstage. His already poor recovery ain't gonna help him much in this situation, so he just falls to his doom for mis-predicting.
2. Little Mac reads that Wario will attack and counters properly. Now Little Mac is back onstage and is back in the game, getting rewarded for properly predicting the attack.

Say that we changed the counter to only work a the front. This is a no-brainer for Wario: all he has to do is overshoot his jump past Little Mac, double jump back onstage while hitting him with a Down-air from behind as he is moving back onstage. The multiple hitboxes would end such that Little Mac is knocked back farther offstage. Little Mac is not making it back anymore as he's doomed for sure. We just nerfed his recovery... again!

I think that counters are fine, honestly, there's no need to make them worse. The characters I touched on are two which are already considered to be mediocre by some: no need to nerf them further.

 

[Ryuji]

#wordtoshulk. His counter is ridiculous.

I'm biased saying this, but I think Shulk deserves counter. All non-sword users except Little Mac I feel the move was just thrown onto without much thought.

 

[ReturningFall]

If there's any tweaks to counters, they need to actually connect more often. Shulks' and greninjas are particularly notorious for missing what looks like a clean counter--I've whacked greninja before and shielded the counter online on reaction. Marth and lucnia's can miss if the spacing if very precise and they're above the opponent. I do think shulk and greninja should lose some power on their counters under such a change, but slightly less scaling wouldn't really kill them. Lucina and Marth have pretty effective kills via counter and aren't anywhere near as powerful.

Nothing feels worse than landing a successful counter, getting a weird miss and getting punished as a result. If you want to complain Marth and Lucina's can combo break, well, think of al the fast Nairs in the game and compare--except counter is way less safe on miss.

Of course, if you're the type of player who starts charging smashes randomly, you deserve to get countered. Don't ever show your hand earlier than you have to. And no, if you're half charged already you'll probably get stuck unleashing a fully charged smash on a countering opponent rather than a counter read.
In terms of gameplay, Greninja's and lucario's counters feel natural. Lucario's a kinda martial artist and greninja's a ninja. Dodge and attack like a kung fu master is just natural. Honestly, Martth's counter felt odd back in Melee, but it's kinda grown to be part of his character and is now sorta in fire emblem, so it fits (and has actually become standard on swordswo/men).

Palutena? Maybe. I haven't played KI:U. But watch as custom Palutena gives up counter immediately for increased speed and becomes waaay better so quit complaining.

 

[Warlock*G]

I hate counters, they make it harder to string those satisfying combos.

If it truly is a combo, then by definition, the counter is not an issue at all after you land the first hit anyway.

 

[salaboB]

It just doesn't make sense to make such a mediocre, situational, and punishable move even worse by making it only affect one direction. Especially while Pocket and Oil Panic are far more potent and practically cover their character's hurtboxes from projectile damage.

The easy answer to your objection is that the vulnerable portion of the counter animation could be shortened a bit (Total length the same, but longer activation trigger) if you were made vulnerable to getting hit from behind. Adjust until it feels good.

(There's also more room to diversify characters here, if a counter should really be directionless the animation could reflect that -- Lucario's is pretty close to that, for instance)

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Be aggressive without attacking.

Then all your problems will become inconsequential.

 

[Raijinken]

The easy answer to your objection is that the vulnerable portion of the counter animation could be shortened a bit (Total length the same, but longer activation trigger) if you were made vulnerable to getting hit from behind. Adjust until it feels good.

(There's also more room to diversify characters here, if a counter should really be directionless the animation could reflect that -- Lucario's is pretty close to that, for instance)

I'd consider vulnerability from behind (also, due to how some hitboxes work, probably from below and above as well) a far greater drawback, personally. If my opponent used a move that leaves them so open that I have time to use a Counter, I shouldn't also be forced to turn around first.

I just can't see how there'd be a legitimate reason to make Counters worse than they already are against an aware opponent. Heck, it took until Smash4 for Marth's to even have scaling damage and knockback to make punishment proportional to the offense. But disregarding all aesthetic properties, they're still just a dead move against a wary opponent.

 

[Clint Jaguar]

If I were to modify counters in any way, I would simply give them longer ending lag, just to discourage players from spamming them.

 

[L9999]

They already have high ending lag.

 

[Falcon1991]

I feel like such a noob to not think of grabbing whilst an opponent counters.

I used to in Melee, but I've gotten rusty since. >_>

 

[LancerStaff]

Counters were outright useless before. I don't think they need to be made useless again, but the stinkin' CPU makes fighting characters with counters completely unfun.

Just keep in mind that counters only have limited range. Pit's Fair reaches further then most counters.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Counters are perfectly balanced in terms of 1v1's (except Shulk's, obviously). They promote smart play since they leave you completely open to just about anything when they're whiffed, not to mention you can still be grabbed during the animation.
In Free-For-Alls, on the other hand...

 

[Arle Nadja]

If anything needs to be adjusted with counters, it's their knockback scaling.

If you stick full offensive equipment on say Yoshi, for example, counter can KO you at 0% from anywhere on an Omega stage. I have never seen anything so broken and poorly thought out in a Smash game. I mean yes equipment isn't competitive, but getting KO'd by counter at 0% isn't fun either. It's rage inducing even in casual play. Who playtested the game and saw no issue with that?

 

[Roko Jono]

I feel their active time should be shortened (vulnerable time stay the same though). I feel like you can counter moves for like 2 seconds, which is a very very long time. Either make the active times shorter or the KO potential lower since counter's risk/reward ratio is slightly too high.

 

[GanonPawnch]

Logistically it should only happen in front of you. But for the sake of the game, countering doesn't need a Nerf. It's not that common at higher levels, and they are actually quite dangerous to use because of the massive amount of ending lag. I've killed many marths and little macs simply by charging a smash, and waiting for the counter frames to run out then letting go. Counters definitely don't need to be any less useful than they already are. Honestly if you learn to bait a counter, you'll be glad your opponent has a counter. Especially with slow characters, Basically any character can land an FSmash on a character if they wait an extra second for them to counter, and with characters like bowser that's usually a kill. If anything I'd say the heavy hitters gain the most from other characters having counters.

I agree with this. As Ganondorf I'll down throw to up air at low percentages, but then next one if I see them being counter happy, I'll down throw, then simply jump at them faking an up air like "Ahh! " lol then they counter because they expect me to repeat what I just did. Then simply land, and up-smash or something to the chin.