I Can't Believe I'm Saying This, But.....

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MagiusNecros

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I'm pretty sure it's A ok for the ZSS mains to get miles off of one grab if they can manipulate their opponent's movement to the way they want them to and kill em with little effort. But give anything similar to Bowser and all the whining comes in.

I can play an okay ZSS and get easy kills like nothing with no investment into the character. Off grabs.

And you don't see me complaining about ZSS needing a nerf hammer.

Although buffing TG to laugh at the weak hits of her UpB would be a welcome change. Would be OP but I main Bowser so why not.
 

MockRock

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I love the new Bowser, and don't think he is unfair in any way whatsoever. He plays exactly like a heavy character should; he's slow and awkward, but if you screw up and let him in, you are going to suffer for it. He has extreme strengths and extreme weaknesses, which suits him perfectly both from a gameplay and flavour perspective.

Oh, and OP, no, it is not "unfair" that he can grab you 3 times and kill you with it. He's slow and clunky, and is obviously looking for grabs. Don't give them to him. If you think Bowser's bad, try fighting the Ice Climbers. And no, they're not overpowered either.
 

Sorichuudo

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I'm pretty sure it's A ok for the ZSS mains to get miles off of one grab if they can manipulate their opponent's movement to the way they want them to and kill em with little effort. But give anything similar to Bowser and all the whining comes in.

I can play an okay ZSS and get easy kills like nothing with no investment into the character. Off grabs.

And you don't see me complaining about ZSS needing a nerf hammer.
I found this thread while looking for info on Bowser's new uthrow, don't really want to take part of this discussion but... i'm pretty sure over 80% of the internet complains about ZSS's grab>uair>uair>up B shenanigans, i mean, Trifoze made a video on how to deal with boost kick exactly because people whine about it.

On every ZSS match on youtube you will find half of the comment section complaining how "she takes no skill and gets easy kills off of a grab".

Again, don't want to take part in this discussion, just saying.
 

Cronoc

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Guys, it's Bowser. Real buffs would involve completely changing the design (ie moveset) of this character. The patch team isn't doing that. We're still not top 20, and certainly not deserving of a nerf. Give me a break. Also, assuming nothing but bread and butter throw combos, it would take at least 4 throws to kill most characters. Don't want to get grabbed? Put out a hitbox. Don't want to get pivot grabbed, don't make stupid plays (ie overextend) or insist on landing on the stage instead of going to the ledge. Know your spacing.
 

S_B

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I found this thread while looking for info on Bowser's new uthrow, don't really want to take part of this discussion but... i'm pretty sure over 80% of the internet complains about ZSS's grab>uair>uair>up B shenanigans, i mean, Trifoze made a video on how to deal with boost kick exactly because people whine about it.

On every ZSS match on youtube you will find half of the comment section complaining how "she takes no skill and gets easy kills off of a grab".

Again, don't want to take part in this discussion, just saying.
It's a good point to raise because ZSS gets disgusting reward from a grab, but the other thing is that she, Diddy, and pre-patch Luigi all had one thing in common when it came to grabbing that Bowser doesn't: an opener.

ZSS can guarantee a grab off of paralyzer or Dsmash, Diddy guarantees his grabs off of bananas, pre-patch Weegee did it off of fireballs.

What does Bowser have to guarantee a grab? Nothing.

Jab 1 > grab is far from guaranteed, and if you're jabbing someone, you've already gotten in, which is what Bowser struggles to do in the first place.

Really, in order to get a grab, Bowser has to run up to you and grab you or pivot grab you as you're chasing him (which you should know better than to do).
 

LunarWingCloud

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Why can't that meme just die already? Especially considering that he's been getting nothing but buffs since 1.11.
Because 2 updates that are balance patches out of 5-6 is still pretty bad.

To be fair though Greninja's actually been nerfed pretty hard unfairly during the first few updates. Like he got Diddy Kong nerfed even though Greninja was MAYBE top 10 at best during 3DS launch.
 

Kerthorok

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Yes, Bowser can kill confirm out of a grab. That still doesn't make it any easier for Bowser to get an actual grab when he gets camped by half the characters in the game.
 

Cronoc

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Simply, here are some general questions to ask when one looks to assess how good a character is in this game:
  1. How good (in otherwords, how safe) is their neutral?
  2. How easily can they rack up damage after winning the neutral?
  3. How easily can they avoid damage after losing the neutral?
A cursory look at Bowser with these questions in mind makes his advantages and failings clear.
 

MagiusNecros

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It's a good point to raise because ZSS gets disgusting reward from a grab, but the other thing is that she, Diddy, and pre-patch Luigi all had one thing in common when it came to grabbing that Bowser doesn't: an opener.

ZSS can guarantee a grab off of paralyzer or Dsmash, Diddy guarantees his grabs off of bananas, pre-patch Weegee did it off of fireballs.

What does Bowser have to guarantee a grab? Nothing.

Jab 1 > grab is far from guaranteed, and if you're jabbing someone, you've already gotten in, which is what Bowser struggles to do in the first place.

Really, in order to get a grab, Bowser has to run up to you and grab you or pivot grab you as you're chasing him (which you should know better than to do).
He's right you know. Meanwhile other characters have setups for their death throw combos that makes Bowser look pathetic in comparison.

Hell even Charizard's Bthrow > Dragon Rush is better then what Bowser has.
 

bushaheen

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The throw bolsters his main playing field. The ground. He is still vulnerable in the air, to zoners, to rushdown, to just damn near everything.

I dunno why people call for nerfs on Bowser, a grappler archetype, because said character received a much needed buff to their GRAPPLE game.

Bowser still has flaws and problems despite his buffs. Players of equal skill against the top tiers will have Bowser lose. Every time.
well actually bowser can beat players of equal skill against top tiers even if they know the MU as much as you do vs their top tier character (btw they wont) since bowser has the clutch factor with rage combined with other powerful attacks like f-smash kill at 40% down-b kill at 60% and off stage bair to kill at 50% you will still probably lose the set but you should atleast win 1 game which is better than nothing right? (you said they will win every time)
 

MagiusNecros

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well actually bowser can beat players of equal skill against top tiers even if they know the MU as much as you do vs their top tier character (btw they wont) since bowser has the clutch factor with rage combined with other powerful attacks like f-smash kill at 40% down-b kill at 60% and off stage bair to kill at 50% you will still probably lose the set but you should atleast win 1 game which is better than nothing right? (you said they will win every time)
Assuming the player does not make a single mistake. If they do then the Bowser can win.
 

GanonDuck

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bowser is a plain character to play as and watch being played compared to the other more dynamic characters since before you had to take advantage of all of bowser tools to succeed but now you only need to use a few tools in netural just see this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mCqxHLovRE there is a certain part where he talks about bowser in patch 1.1.3 and why he was lazily given buffs to improve him (you should probably watch the whole video since its really good)
The bowser clip in that video is dumb as it kinda shows troof use alot of bowsers moveset. I'm kinda salty about people complaining so hard about the grab buff as a "bandaid" fix. It just solidifies bowser as this games zangief as he actually gets rewards out of his grabs. Isnt the entire points of bowser to be this laggy heavy hitter character anyways? Fittingly enough he is a scrub destroyer like most good heavy weights in their respective fighting game. Im all for fixing his dumb hitboxes tho.
 

pitfall356

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Back on topic, Bowser doesn't need any nerfs. If he got a buff or two to make some moves a little safer and to fix the hitbox issues, that would be nice, but he won't be much higher than mid until we can cover his glaring flaws.
 

Hitman JT

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bowser is a plain character to play as and watch being played compared to the other more dynamic characters since before you had to take advantage of all of bowser tools to succeed but now you only need to use a few tools in netural just see this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mCqxHLovRE there is a certain part where he talks about bowser in patch 1.1.3 and why he was lazily given buffs to improve him (you should probably watch the whole video since its really good)
How adorable.
"I feel like a ****ing celebrity in this town." :4bayonetta:
 

HeavyLobster

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Bowser's buffs aren't broken at all. Not sure if they're how I'd go about buffing the character, and the general power creep of the game is getting annoying, but he's still Bowser, and is still really easy to juggle and combo himself. The character design is admittedly kind of lame, but it's not as if there aren't equally lame characters who are still much better like Mario and Zero Suit. Salty mains of high tiers whose gameplan largely consists of Dthrow -> Uair have no business complaining about Bowser now revolving around Uthrow -> Uair.
 

Duck SMASH!

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OOOOHHH. Are we talking about characters who only need to grab a few times to win?
Where have you been lately? Its almost like you've forgotten how easy it is for :4metaknight: and :4zss: to kill at low %s off of grabs.
Nevermind just how easy it is for :4falcon::4dedede::4diddy::4dk::4drmario::4duckhunt::4falco::4greninja::4myfriends::4kirby::4lucario::4lucas::4luigi::4mario::4megaman::4gaw::4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness::4olimar::4palutena::4peach::4pikachu::4rob::4robinm::rosalina::4samus::4sheik::4shulk::4wiifit: and :4pit::4darkpit:to rack up damage so quickly off of grabs...

You want a less grab centric meta? Too bad. You're playing the wrong game. Throw combos are here to stay, and Bowser's is as good as any of them.

Edit: now with more characters that only need to grab a few times to win.
 
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Hitman JT

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You're troof arnt you? Dont you feel like a huge scumbag using LITERALLY ONLY bowsers grab to win?
I had good results before the patch, so nope.
Whenever I shellshock a Luigi, ROB, DK, etc. the only thing I feel is sweet, cathartic justice. :denzel:
 

S_B

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I had good results before the patch, so nope.
Whenever I shellshock a Luigi, ROB, DK, etc. the only thing I feel is sweet, cathartic justice. :denzel:
Just in case if wasn't clear, Ganonduck was being sarcastic at the expense of the person who was using your video as an example of "Bowser only using grab" when you in fact use all of Bowser's moveset (or at least the parts that aren't insanely punishable).

There are select few characters I'd actually feel slightly guilty about shell shocking, probably Zelda, Ganon, and JP, to name a few...

Also, the linked video doesn't seem to understand that SSB needs to be both a casual AND a competitive game at the same time, meaning they need to add things like hoo-haas instead of raw frame data improvements.
 
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BarSoapSoup

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I don't think there's really much else to discuss in this topic, at this point. Bowser's still far from overpowered. Le Troof is still the Bowser-Avatar, and we are his foaming mouth guy.

 

Xandercosm

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I've said it before d I'll say it again. Bowser still a fat, slow, awkward sack of potatoes with a plethora of weaknesses. This was really the least they could have done for him. If you want my honest opinion, I think your just super salty cause you got rekt. I think all it takes is re-learing the MU.
 

S_B

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I wanted to state an opinion and start general discussion, but I got a double posting warning... okay then.
Regular posters on this forum have that happen to them all the time. Don't take it personally.

It's just mods doing their jobs, I suppose.
 

UltimaLuminaire

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The thread has derailed in a very convincing fashion. Locking the thread.
 
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