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I cannot beat Cloud as Pacman

TrapOnLotus

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Everytime, I lose this MU, Cloud is just ridiculous. He grabs fruit easy, takes hydrant away easy. Has good air game, is fast as hell.

How do I beat him!!

Every time I run into him, I lose and am forced to go my main Little Mac. EVERYTIME!

Someone please give me a hand and tell me what I need to do.
 

Papyrus

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I'm a Cloud secondary, so I might be able to help you out a little. Any Pacman mains should be able to cover what I miss. Additionally, Pacman mains, feel free to correct me if I say something weird.

Avoid ending Side B into front of Cloud. He will punish you hard with...well, anything, but most likely Fsmash before you can react. This actually goes for all characters. I can't tell you how many times I've played a Pac main who miscalculated the distance and left themselves open for a free punish.

I'm not sure what Pacman's landing options are, but if Cloud tries to come at you with up air, hydrant might do the job.

Cloud's recovery is bad, given he doesn't have Limit Break. He is ripe for the gimping majority of the time he is off stage, so use Pacman's tools to ensure he doesn't come back, but don't risk a stock for it as he might try to take you with him using the downward strike of Up B. If he goes for the Up B straight to the ledge, there's a chance you can shield it so he doesn't grab the ledge.

Speaking of Limit Break, keep an eye on where the Cloud's Limit Break is at. If it is fully charged, the safest way to get rid of it is to force him to use it as recovery by getting him offstage. If you don't take care of it, Cloud has multiple kill options ready within one or two inputs. Finishing Touch (Limit Break Down B) probably kills Pac anywhere above 60, though I'm not completely sure.

Last point, Cloud is very powerful. His smashes will start to kill somewhere between 50-100 depending on the character. Be ready for these, as your opponent might start throwing any of his smash attacks out during this time.


I'm not sure if this helps, but I figured I put in my two cents.
 

verbatim

Smash Ace
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Mar 29, 2015
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There's nothing wrong switching to Little Mac for this matchup. A lot of Cloud's properties, specifically Limit charging and early kill moves, are unfriendly to Pacman (at least in my experience).
 

Pacack

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This matchup is currently one of the few I switch to my secondaries on (along with Villager and Rosalina) when I'm serious about winning. I don't believe it's unwinnable by any stretch of the imagination, but Cloud has tools which put the matchup heavily in his favor.

He has:
  • A hard-hitting, rushdown playstyle combination.
  • Limit Charge.
  • Blade Beam.
  • Long range.
Allow me to touch upon each point individually.

Cloud's build as a character is similar to Roy's, Little Mac's, Bowser's, or Captain Falcon's; he gets in, he does damage, and generally applies a ton of pressure. These types of characters have always been a little bit uncomfortable to deal with head-to-head, and Pac-Man tends to use his camping tools (hydrant and trampoline) and his projectiles (hydrant and bonus fruit) to keep them out of his personal bubble of space. When our opponent tends to be more hard-hitting than rushdown, we're better off using the hydrant sparingly, as it can be knocked away by our opponent easier than by us, and we might better be called slippery than campy. (That said, if our opponent goes for the hydrant every time we put it down, we can use that to bait them out.)

Cloud, however, throws a monkey wrench into this formula. He isn't the cookie-cutter hard-hitting, rushdown character because he has tools that actively prevent us from camping him or fighting him with projectiles.

Cloud's Limit Charge is an extremely powerful anti-camping tool that Cloud can use which completely messes with our game plan. He gains an advantage from a situation that we traditionally do. If we're camping when Cloud begins using Limit Charge, we have two options: allow him to get to full charge or go in and attack. Both of these scenarios put us in unfavorable positions because he beats us face-to-face.

Cloud's Blade Beam is a solid projectile which gives us more problems still, because it messes with our bonus fruit (should we try to attack him with projectiles instead of outright camping him, which we should be doing). His blade beam clashes with and stops cherry, strawberry, orange, apple, melon, bell (if it hits), and key (I may be wrong on the key). However, Galaxian is amazing in this matchup since it goes through all projectiles no problem. Further, the key moves so fast that it often gets through to do damage if timed well enough, and the bell moves strangely enough that it can often be used well also. Just charge carefully and avoid Cloud at all costs.

The tricky part about this matchup is that we're limited to playing a slippery playstyle with three projectiles (if the Cloud player is using all of his tools). And staying away from Cloud is much, much easier said than done. His reach is ridiculous. Use fast moves and dance just outside of Cloud's range, punishing him for any whiffed attacks. If you have to, play around with Cloud a little in training mode and see how far his moves reach just so you can make sure you're out of range against your opponents.

And, finally, something I cannot stress enough.

CHASE CLOUD OFFSTAGE

Our gimping game is fantastic against Cloud...mainly because Cloud's offstage game is awful. Don't just rely on sniping with oranges or other fruit. You need to actually go out and nair, bair, or fair to get him just far enough away from the ledge that he cannot recover. It's not too difficult, really. The hard part is getting him offstage, which I'll leave you to figure out. Seriously, though, be so aggressive offstage that your opponents have nightmares about yellow spheres devouring them.
 

C0rvus

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In the amount of time my fraudulent Pac Man has played against Clouds, I have found that Orange sniping his non limit recovery is pretty free. Finding time to get better bonus fruit is awkward because if you give him space, he can charge limit. So it seems he can easily dictate the pace of the match if you let him. Still working on how to not let him myself...
 

TrapOnLotus

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No problem, man. Post back here with more questions if you have any.

In fact, a couple of us would probably provide some more detailed feedback if you posted some replays here later. :4pacman:
When I get online earlier, I will gladly share some replay footage
 

Nu~

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I think claiming that cloud is a rush down character is completely false. He hasn't the frame data to apply that constant aggressive pressure. Where cloud's strength lies is in his ability to sit back and limit brake camp, then play the bait and punish game until he kills you at some rediculous percentage.

What's really going on here is a lack of matchup experience.

Pacman will lose if you try to play the camp game because cloud will use that time to charge. What you want to do is get in his face. I'm gonna be the oddball here and say that pacman is not a defensive character. But don't just take my work for it, @Dabuz and @Sinji have also come to the same conclusion.


Where Pac-Man's strength lies is in heavily pressuring the opponent with our generally fast attacks, oppressive projectiles to close he opponent in, and powerful z drops. Where we lack in speed, we make up for in traps and setups.
Pacman wants to keep closing the opponent in on their own bubble until they have nowhere to run. His playstyle is reminiscent of his original game when he gets the power pellet. Same for smash when he sets up his traps or gets a fruit in the hand.

What you want to do to cloud is get in and stuff his attacks with yours. Don't play in his zone or he'll continue to space you out. Get closer and try to force him into the air. Cloud has an awful disadvantage state and falls prey to aerial combos. Our uair gives him trouble, and he doesn't have anything fast enough to escape our F-air chains offstage. Z drop fruit combos (especially with galaxian) rack up excellent damage. Blade beam is realllly bad. High endlag and meh startup. Its only okay for stopping fruit if you use them linearly (or if you use fruit for camping for some reason).

This matchup has both characters fighting for dominance in mid range. When cloud camps for limit break, you can get a fruit in hand or set up a trap. Cloud has the edge in early kill moves, but we have the edge in early offstage gimps. Matchup is either even or in cloud's favor slightly due to his superior range and power.

Videos would help a lot but I hope this helps you in your cloud-wrecking endeavors :)

Disclaimer: My training partner mains cloud, but even then, my experience isn't full since cloud has only been out for about a week.
 
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C0rvus

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I definitely see Pac Man's tools lending themselves better to a pressure-based offensive style. Fruit and the hydrant are too easy to play around to be used as camping tools. Getting near Cloud with a good fruit in hand seems to be the goal here. Shielding against Cloud seems very strong, since his throws are pretty inconsequential and his grab is short as hell.

Another thing to note may be that Blade Beam is bad, but it stops fruit. Maybe we can catch some of the fruit using his projectile? Also, be wary of doing hydrant drop to back air, then he can shoot a beam at it and it will likely hit you.
 
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Nu~

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I definitely see Pac Man's tools lending themselves better to a pressure-based offensive style. Fruit and the hydrant are too easy to play around to be used as camping tools. Getting near Cloud with a good fruit in hand seems to be the goal here. Shielding against Cloud seems very strong, since his throws are pretty inconsequential and his grab is short as hell.

Another thing to note may be that Blade Beam is bad, but it stops fruit. Maybe we can catch some of the fruit using his projectile? Also, be wary is doing hydrant drop to back air, then he can shoot a beam at it and it will likely hit you.
Or we can heal off of blade beam with side B. But if we can catch fruit off of blade beam...that could be promising.

I typically do a drop off uair after I drop a hydrant. I have a lot less landing lag and may be able to jab the hydrant before blade beam hits depending on how far away cloud is.
 

PEPESPAIN

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I played lot this MU. PAC-MAN has a hard MU here. I'm playing this MU with Villager since Cloud is Bowling Ball Meat. it is SUPER EASY to play with villager. He can pocket his projectiles.... Limit Neutral B .....:awesome:

Maybe we can catch some of the fruit using his projectile?

- Yes we can.

Or we can heal off of blade beam with side B.

- Yes we can.

Important Points:

- His Uair wins our Hydrant. Don't throw a Hydrant on this situation. You will waste it.
- When Cloud is offstage try to combo him with fair to nair after he used the jump. If you do this correctly Cloud is dead.
- If you perform a ledge trump and punish him with a bair he can't return to stage unless he has limit full charged.
- His Limit Side B is really hard to punish, don't try it. You will be punished.
- When he has the limit charged avoid him with the "No neutral Strategy"
- Cloud whiffed fsmash -> USmash, kills him around 110%
- Fair to key around 123%
- Melon ledge traps destroys him. Orange too.
- I play really agressive this match. You can't play campy.

PACMAN can win this MU too, we only need how to do it!
 

Pacack

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I played lot this MU. PAC-MAN has a hard MU here. I'm playing this MU with Villager since Cloud is Bowling Ball Meat. it is SUPER EASY to play with villager. He can pocket his projectiles.... Limit Neutral B .....:awesome:

Maybe we can catch some of the fruit using his projectile?

- Yes we can.

Or we can heal off of blade beam with side B.

- Yes we can.

Important Points:

- His Uair wins our Hydrant. Don't throw a Hydrant on this situation. You will waste it.
- When Cloud is offstage try to combo him with fair to nair after he used the jump. If you do this correctly Cloud is dead.
- If you perform a ledge trump and punish him with a bair he can't return to stage unless he has limit full charged.
- His Limit Side B is really hard to punish, don't try it. You will be punished.
- When he has the limit charged avoid him with the "No neutral Strategy"
- Cloud whiffed fsmash -> USmash, kills him around 110%
- Fair to key around 123%
- Melon ledge traps destroys him. Orange too.
- I play really agressive this match. You can't play campy.

PACMAN can win this MU too, we only need how to do it!
Thanks, dude. I might respect your Pac more than anyone's here, honestly. Your lab work and application of said lab work is potentially the most calculated of anyone's on this board. Even our best players (Zage and, rarely, Koolaid) aren't as methodical with their application of Pac-Man as you are.

I've started playing much more aggressively in this matchup as well. It's practically unwinnable if you camp it out. That said, I'm still having a problem playing against Cloud's neutral, especially his down tilt into up air. It can be countered with trampoline, but it's hard to set up in the first place since he's so fast and has such good range.
 
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PEPESPAIN

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Pacack Pacack

If cloud does a Dtilt you can OOS Nair him, he will always lose . Don't trade with his Uair, you ALWAYS will lose.

My trainning mate is a Cloud Main, I can explain this MU if you want , or I can upload replays...

If you want to win with PAC-MAN you all need to MASTER fair to Key combo. You need to undestand how it works. It works 99% times. If you miss, you didn't do it correctly. Look my last tournament. I did it on every match I played. You will see a video on my youtube channel explaining how to do it with every % for every character. I started to make it.

It is our Holy Grail

Thanks for your comments about my lab work, it is a really hard job. I really appreciate it.
 
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Pacack

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Pacack Pacack

If cloud does a Dtilt you can OOS Nair him, he will always lose . Don't trade with his Uair, you ALWAYS will lose.

My trainning mate is a Cloud Main, I can explain this MU if you want , or I can upload replays...

If you want to win with PAC-MAN you all need to MASTER fair to Key combo. You need to undestand how it works. It works 99% times. If you miss, you didn't do it correctly. Look my last tournament. I did it on every match I played. You will see a video on my youtube channel explaining how to do it with every % for every character. I started to make it.

It is our Holy Grail

Thanks for your comments about my lab work, it is a really hard job. I really appreciate it.
Could you upload a couple replays of your Cloud matches?

I checked your YouTube channel and I'll be checking out for that fair to key combo vid when it's up. I'm analyzing your current match vids now. It's like a goldmine of resources for me, by the way, so thank you so much for reminding me that you have matches.

I notice that you use rising nair significantly more than I do; I should use that as a mental pressure tool more. Your trap game is really, really polished, and I need to revisit your traps video again. You hydrant surf a lot more than I do, but in different ways that I can play around with a bit. I also need to work on my up-b OoS, because that's critical.

I'm noticing that you miss out on punishing some of your opponent's shielding habits because you don't throw out Pac-Man's easily punishable grab very much. Personally, I've become really good at spacing it so it grabs characters from further than normal grab distance. Our grab punishes "safe" options (like sitting in shield) well since we can grab opponents from a distance that most characters cannot. Maybe you could consider toying with that a bit? I think it would help you significantly in your punish game. Shields, rolls, spotdodges, pokes, whiffed grabs, bad approaches, and more can also be punished with our grab when we read our opponents well, of course, but I know you know that.
 
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Direspect only!

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Bell, galaxian and cherry help a lot in this MU, he tends to jump a lot due to his canceleable aerials, what you want to do is make sure he never touches the ground for free. As for his camping game... melon on shield is generally pretty good, because it allows for multiple mix ups, you could go high and catch it, or you could drop a hydrant, or you could just run behind it up b. Lots of options.
 

Direspect only!

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I tried this last night with some of my sparring buddies and won a majority of the matches. Plating aggressively is a much better approach because they don't get your hydrant for free anymore.
 

Splebel

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What I don't like about Cloud is he seems safe on shield for Pac-Man and you can't punish his Fsmash because unlike ours it apparently has a hitbox over Cloud and negates all my punishes.
 

Froggy

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I have been having some trouble with a few match ups lately (Cloud being one of em) so I have been trying the more aggressive approach. And so far I am finding success in continuously approaching behind my galaxian, it interrupts his limit charge better than anything else we can do and he can't cover both the galaxian and your approach with a single areal. If he retreats you can recatch the galaxian pretty easy to continue the pressure as well. Seems pretty effective, haven't really tried it on anyone I'd consider better than me just yet though.
 

Splebel

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I have been having some trouble with a few match ups lately (Cloud being one of em) so I have been trying the more aggressive approach. And so far I am finding success in continuously approaching behind my galaxian, it interrupts his limit charge better than anything else we can do and he can't cover both the galaxian and your approach with a single areal. If he retreats you can recatch the galaxian pretty easy to continue the pressure as well. Seems pretty effective, haven't really tried it on anyone I'd consider better than me just yet though.
What about his Neutral Air? That seems like it lasts long enough and has enough range. His dash attack also seems like it would do well against that if he does the instant dash attack trick, maybe also down tilt. How far back are you from the galaxian?
 

Froggy

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What about his Neutral Air? That seems like it lasts long enough and has enough range. His dash attack also seems like it would do well against that if he does the instant dash attack trick, maybe also down tilt. How far back are you from the galaxian?
His nair isn't a problem if he has to use it to stop the Galaxian, if he retreats with his nair he is punishable. If he approaches with it then after the first time shield it and punish him. You should have a read on that before you get to the percentagte where his nair is going to cause any pain.

You need to throw the galaxian and the distance where it will loop around immediately after hit him. In additon you should primarily be throwing the galaxian out of a dash state since thats best for pressure.

You shield his dash attack on reaction if he does it early enough to beat the hitbox of the galaxian.
 

Splebel

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His nair isn't a problem if he has to use it to stop the Galaxian, if he retreats with his nair he is punishable. If he approaches with it then after the first time shield it and punish him. You should have a read on that before you get to the percentagte where his nair is going to cause any pain.

You need to throw the galaxian and the distance where it will loop around immediately after hit him. In additon you should primarily be throwing the galaxian out of a dash state since thats best for pressure.

You shield his dash attack on reaction if he does it early enough to beat the hitbox of the galaxian.
I found out that Cloud can SH Dair and it lasts the whole time and autocancels upon landing. That seems like it would beat it and it would be hard to punish as Cloud can immediately attack upon landing.
 

Fruit_Hax

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His nair isn't a problem if he has to use it to stop the Galaxian, if he retreats with his nair he is punishable. If he approaches with it then after the first time shield it and punish him. You should have a read on that before you get to the percentagte where his nair is going to cause any pain.

You need to throw the galaxian and the distance where it will loop around immediately after hit him. In additon you should primarily be throwing the galaxian out of a dash state since thats best for pressure.

You shield his dash attack on reaction if he does it early enough to beat the hitbox of the galaxian.
Wait, so even if they negate the first hitbox of galaga, the secon one still comes out?
 

Froggy

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I take back what I said, Don't do this matchup. Just pick a different character, preferably one that doesn't really on zoning
 

Hxey

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I agree that playing aggressive is the only way to go in this MU. Letting Cloud charge limit is scary. I would suggest going for early gimps. A well placed cherry, strawberry, orange, melon, or key can wreck his recovery if you catch him after he's out of jumps. He doesn't even have to be offstage at mid to high %, just near the edge with no jumps.

Another good gimping tool is fair. If you hit a char with a bad recovery off the stage with a fair at about 85%, you can carry your momentum offstage and continue with a fair string. 8/10 times you can hit at least two more and carry them into a place where they can't recover. I've also noticed that this can stuff air jumps, leaving opponents even more helpless to the string. The most I've hit consecutively is 5 fairs, but if you go too far you may lose your stock as well. This strategy applies to Cloud, Mario, Falcon, Gannon and many others. If you do this properly, you won't have to use your jump until you're recovering.

Back to Cloud though, another thing about this MU is that jabs beat his neutral b. If shield isn't an option, you can just hold attack and most of the time jab beats it out, though you can be hit between jabs so be careful. Ftilt also works for this, but unfortunately not Dtilt.

Last thing, Cloud's recovery doesnt snap ledge a lot of the time. If you shield dash up to the ledge when he's recovering, you can drop shield and jab combo him or ftilt him at the apex, and that should take the stock if he has no jumps and no limit. Hope this helps a little.
 
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