How would you turn wave dashing from an exploit into a command action?

[Quillion]

I'm at the point where I can perform wave dashing semi-consistently with Mario now (in SD Remix, of course), and I've been able to pull off a wavedash into f-smash.

But still, I've tried to seriously analyze why I want wave dashing to become an ascended physics exploit, and I've come to the conclusion by looking at this description of UMVC3's very own basic dash mechanic (taken from Shoryuken Wiki):

To perform a Forward Dash, you have two options:

1. Tap Towards on the controller twice in a row rapidly.
2. Pressing any two of the three main Attack Buttons while the controller is Neutral or while holding the Towards direction.

To perform a Back Dash, you have the same two options:

1. Tap Back on the controller twice in a row rapidly.
2. Pressing any two of the three main Attack Buttons while holding the Back direction.

Dashing is a very important part of Ultimate Marvel Vs. Capcom 3. Mobility is key in every Versus Game, and, while on the ground, Dashing will be your main source of mobility while on the ground. Dashes move your character very quickly in the direction you are Dashing. This allows you to traverse the screen on the ground much more quickly so you can either close the gap on your opponent or quickly get away from them.

What makes Dashes powerful is that they can be canceled before they complete. There are three ways to cancel a Dash: with attacks, with a Crouch, and with a Jump. When you cancel a Dash with a Normal Move, you gain the extra benefit of maintaining the momentum of the Dash with your attack. That way, if you get in on your opponent and start performing a series of Normal Attacks on them from a Dash, you will be able to land more hits on the enemy before being pushed out of range thanks to that momentum. When you cancel a Dash into a Special Move or a Hyper Combo, however, the move does not gain any extra momentum and always behaves the same as if you performed it while standing still. And when you cancel a Dash with a Crouch, you'll slide forward a tiny bit before coming to a stop. Obviously, Morrigan is the one exception that cannot cancel her Dash into a Crouch.

Wait, doesn't wave dashing in Melee give you a burst of mobility that allows you to do anything out of it, too? Why hasn't anyone else thought of making a similar dash function for Smash? Like maybe just a little tap of the control stick but not holding it down so you don't go into a dash? Or maybe mapping the dash to either the x or y buttons?

Anyone else have ideas like this?

 

[undergroundmonorail]

Sounds like what you want is more options out of a dash. That would do most of what we do with wavedashing now, if I understand correctly, barring wavedash out of shield.

 

[EPsilon933]

Replace rolling with wavedashing

 

[Roukiske]

If we're talking about wavedashing alone, I would personally take perfect pivoting and increase the frame window of the flick. From what I hear its 1-2 frames which turns some players off. Doing this would make it much easier for even a beginner to do (doesn't mean they know how to use it).

Wavedashing does make physical sense to me though, having played many fighters with air dashes, so I wouldn't call it an exploit. I mostly hear people ignorant to the game call it an exploit, or even worse, a glitch.

However, this does not solve for wavelanding, a mechanic that's just as important as wavedashing IMO.

 

[AirFair]

I wouldn't necessarily replace rolling with wavedash, as rolling provides invincibility and is a basic escape option. I think just a flick of the control stick would make it simple, but I kind of just like it the way it is lol.

 

[Frostav]

What you suggest in the OP is pretty much what I'd do: change dashes to make them like dashes in traditional fighters:

- Near instantaneous startup

- No dash attacks: holding forward and attacking while during a dash makes your ftilt come out

-All grounded attacks can be done from a dash

Boom, wavedashing becomes nearly-superfluous. Just keep airdodging into a platform so you can waveland.

 

[CT_Emerl]

0____0 ookay

 

[SSS]

"Like maybe just a little tap of the control stick but not holding it down so you don't go into a dash?"

so. . .like. . .a dashdance. . .

 

[Acryte]

Replace rolling with wavedashing

Rolling has a tiny bit on invincibility though, so it's a great option still...

 

[EPsilon933]

Rolling has a tiny bit on invincibility though, so it's a great option still...

I heard there's a hack that KOs someone for rolling as a way to teach players to break their rolling habit. I think that says something about the effectiveness of rolling

Rolling Forces Death [InternetExplorer, Achilles]
Original code has been modified to only apply to humans, not CPUs.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...re-alt-stages-costumes-new-debug-menu.351221/
(It's under 1 of the collapse boxes)

 

[Acryte]

I heard there's a hack that KOs someone for rolling as a way to teach players to break their rolling habit. I think that says something about the effectiveness of rolling

It says something about the predictability of rolling. A hard read can hurt pretty bad, but an effectively placed roll gives you stage position and escapes pressure in ways. Rolls can be great if you're not being predictable. The idea is that it is an option that has to be covered, so having the threat of the roll to gain stage and reset to neutral is great. Without it, they don't have to cover the roll anymore so they can be more offensive without worrying about possibly giving up stage.

 

[Quillion]

"Like maybe just a little tap of the control stick but not holding it down so you don't go into a dash?"

so. . .like. . .a dashdance. . .

Or Foxtrot. Most people call that little thing the "initial dash".

What you suggest in the OP is pretty much what I'd do: change dashes to make them like dashes in traditional fighters:

- Near instantaneous startup

- No dash attacks: holding forward and attacking while during a dash makes your ftilt come out

-All grounded attacks can be done from a dash

Boom, wavedashing becomes nearly-superfluous. Just keep airdodging into a platform so you can waveland.

What I really think is that only the initial dash should be made more versatile. The only thing that could be annoying is that you have to "relax" your initial tap into a tilt in order to use your f-tilt, but I'm sure people could easily get used to that.

It says something about the predictability of rolling. A hard read can hurt pretty bad, but an effectively placed roll gives you stage position and escapes pressure in ways. Rolls can be great if you're not being predictable. The idea is that it is an option that has to be covered, so having the threat of the roll to gain stage and reset to neutral is great. Without it, they don't have to cover the roll anymore so they can be more offensive without worrying about possibly giving up stage.

The problem with rolling is that it has either one of two things:

• It's completely useless because the invincibility is too short and you can't act out of it soon enough (Melee, Brawl).
• It creates an annoying turtle-heavy game because punishing is entirely luck-based (Smash 4)

What EPsilon says about turning rolling into dashing actually might work...

 

[Acryte]

• It's completely useless because the invincibility is too short and you can't act out of it soon enough (Melee, Brawl).

It's not completely useless, it's just really risky. The risk reward does make it worth it though if you read your opponent and use it correctly.

 

[Quillion]

It's not completely useless, it's just really risky. The risk reward does make it worth it though if you read your opponent and use it correctly.

Doesn't wavedashing serve exactly the same purpose that rolling does 99% of the time? Except better because you can act out of it and it's faster?

If we're talking about wavedashing alone, I would personally take perfect pivoting and increase the frame window of the flick. From what I hear its 1-2 frames which turns some players off. Doing this would make it much easier for even a beginner to do (doesn't mean they know how to use it).
Wavedashing does make physical sense to me though, having played many fighters with air dashes, so I wouldn't call it an exploit. I mostly hear people ignorant to the game call it an exploit, or even worse, a glitch.
However, this does not solve for wavelanding, a mechanic that's just as important as wavedashing IMO.

The reason wavedashing is called an exploit in all games is because you should never discount the possibility that the game will just choose to let you not slide if you dash into the ground. Sure, it wouldn't make physical sense, but it might make "balance sense" depending on the game.

Also, perfect pivoting is also an exploit (a method of "fast walking"). I'm talking about a real command mechanic.

 

[Acryte]

Doesn't wavedashing serve exactly the same purpose that rolling does 99% of the time? Except better because you can act out of it and it's faster?

Wavedashing doesn't make your character invulnerable, so you can't use it to pass through an opponent's attack while gaining position, you're forced to engage. If wavedashing was universally better in every situation then you wouldn't see pros roll. Fact is that it IS effective, just gets punished heavily if predicted.

Good players can utilize rolls through conditioning, and through abusing the fact that they're supposed to choose the safer and less noob-friendly option. The main reason it's considered a noobish tendency is because it offers instant gratification. Instant gratification aka get you out of a bad situation immediately if unpunished. Inexperienced players often don't play people who punish them every time for rolling, so bad habits amass where they roll as soon as the tension builds. Good players like Mango use that pressure in order to bait out and punish rolls. It's compounded by non-committal options like dash-dancing, where if they roll, the punish is free. That's why rolling is terrible, because it's easy to punish and players who lack discipline with it's use will be taken advantage of by players who are both aggressive and smart.

It doesn't mean the roll doesn't have it's advantages over wavedashing, they both have unique properties to them... some being good and some being bad. Overall the wavedash is safer, more versatile and less punishable, but doesn't offer invincibility, and characters may travel more/less distance than their roll depending on how much traction they have.

When used defensively use of the roll should be treated as a hard read.
1. You're typically predicting that the enemy is going to attack on the spot or while approaching.
2. You're reading that they won't wavedash backward, because your roll would end up right in front of them waiting to be punished.
3. You're also predicting that they won't wait or dashdance on the spot, and that if they do, the punish won't be as hard as you getting hit by the ledge.

The one thing that helps is that you can condition your opponent in order to open up the option to roll from time to time.

 

[1MachGO]

I'm at the point where I can perform wave dashing semi-consistently with Mario now (in SD Remix, of course), and I've been able to pull off a wavedash into f-smash.

But still, I've tried to seriously analyze why I want wave dashing to become an ascended physics exploit, and I've come to the conclusion by looking at this description of UMVC3's very own basic dash mechanic (taken from Shoryuken Wiki):



Wait, doesn't wave dashing in Melee give you a burst of mobility that allows you to do anything out of it, too? Why hasn't anyone else thought of making a similar dash function for Smash? Like maybe just a little tap of the control stick but not holding it down so you don't go into a dash? Or maybe mapping the dash to either the x or y buttons?

Anyone else have ideas like this?

I mean no insult, but you are obviously new to the community, so I'll explain why this thread isn't needed/has aspects which are incorrect.

1. Physics exploit vs. Game Mechanic

Calling wavedashing a "physics exploit" as opposed to a "real mechanic" is really just arguing about semantics. You might as well call running momentum carrying over into a jump a "physics exploit" or knockback carrying over into a tech roll a "physics exploit". The label serves zero purpose other than to stigmatize attributes which make 100% logical sense when reasoned out. Game mechanics are ultimately what allow these "physics exploits" to occur so the end result is really just another game mechanic.

2. Rolling vs. Wavedashing

Your statement: "Doesn't wavedashing serve exactly the same purpose that rolling does 99% of the time? Except better because you can act out of it and it's faster?" is completely incorrect. Rolling and wavedashing are completely different options with independent uses. They do not replace each other.

Rolling has fast start up and invincibility frames making it an escape tool.

Wavedashing, while slower in start up and lacks invincibility, ultimately offers the player far more control/utility. Wavedashing is typically used as a spacing/mobility tool.

So if you are trying to create a small amount of space between yourself and you're opponent and then punish them, wavedashing is the better choice. However, if Fox/Falco/Peach are pressuring your shield, you can buffer roll to escape (the 50/50 mix up and speed will make it nonpunishable when timed correctly)

This is, of course, simplifying the uses of both options but I think you get the point.

3. Wavedashing loses utility when simplified

Basically I always see two problems with "simplifying wavedashing"

A) The input becomes digital

Since the input is digital, you lose the original degree of control the analog stick offers in regards to changing length. This isn't readily apparent with characters who have a worse wavedash than say, Falco, or something, but a lot of characters greatly benefit from utilizing different angles of the air dodge (the steeper the angle, the less distance) to control how far they go. Also, wavedash in place can be a good option. How would this work if wavedashing replaced rolling?

B) You lose wavelanding or wavelanding and wavedashing become disjointed

Ah, wavelanding, that little detail that new players seem to forget. You see, every character in the game gets mileage out of wavelanding (whether it be landing on platforms faster, ledge dashing, tightening your mobility around the stage, being tricky like Bizzaro Flame) so when someone proposes something like "auto-wavedash replaces rolling" what are they trying to say about wavelanding? Wavelanding can't really be automated since the timing of it varies in so many situations and I don't understand the point of making "wavedashing easier while wavelanding functionally remains the same". Players will have to the learn that skill eventually, so whats the point of making wavedashing easier? There is no benefit to needlessly cluttering up the controls or creating pointless disjoints between wavedashing and wavelanding.

 

[Frostav]

What I really think is that only the initial dash should be made more versatile. The only thing that could be annoying is that you have to "relax" your initial tap into a tilt in order to use your f-tilt, but I'm sure people could easily get used to that.

Dash attacks are useless half the time though, might as well get rid of them. Dashes also take way too long start up. Christ, just let them start up on frame one and let us do any grounded normal out of them. Does anyone actually like your dash restricting your options? It's an aggressive maneuver, it shouldn't do that.

 

[Bones0]

OMG this thread is giving me a headache...

1. Rolling is not even close to wavedashing in terms of application. There's a mod that kills you for rolling because it's a ridiculous GOOD tool at lower levels. That doesn't mean it's a useless tool at high levels.
2. Dash attacks are not useless. Not sure how anyone can think this if you watch matches, but you are a new user so w/e, you get a pass.
3. If you want to make wavedashing into a real mechanic, just explain how to do it in the goddamn game manual. It already has its own animation for ****'s sake. What more do you need? In the same way you can release the jump button quickly to SH or FH, you can WD shorter or further distances by airdodging at differing angles.

 

[Quillion]

I mean no insult, but you are obviously new to the community, so I'll explain why this thread isn't needed/has aspects which are incorrect.

Won't argue with that.

1. Physics exploit vs. Game Mechanic

Calling wavedashing a "physics exploit" as opposed to a "real mechanic" is really just arguing about semantics. You might as well call running momentum carrying over into a jump a "physics exploit" or knockback carrying over into a tech roll a "physics exploit". The label serves zero purpose other than to stigmatize attributes which make 100% logical sense when reasoned out. Game mechanics are ultimately what allow these "physics exploits" to occur so the end result is really just another game mechanic.

Fine. How about "command action"? I hope that makes more sense.

3. Wavedashing loses utility when simplified

Basically I always see two problems with "simplifying wavedashing"

A) The input becomes digital

Since the input is digital, you lose the original degree of control the analog stick offers in regards to changing length. This isn't readily apparent with characters who have a worse wavedash than say, Falco, or something, but a lot of characters greatly benefit from utilizing different angles of the air dodge (the steeper the angle, the less distance) to control how far they go. Also, wavedash in place can be a good option. How would this work if wavedashing replaced rolling?

B) You lose wavelanding or wavelanding and wavedashing become disjointed

Ah, wavelanding, that little detail that new players seem to forget. You see, every character in the game gets mileage out of wavelanding (whether it be landing on platforms faster, ledge dashing, tightening your mobility around the stage, being tricky like Bizzaro Flame) so when someone proposes something like "auto-wavedash replaces rolling" what are they trying to say about wavelanding? Wavelanding can't really be automated since the timing of it varies in so many situations and I don't understand the point of making "wavedashing easier while wavelanding functionally remains the same". Players will have to the learn that skill eventually, so whats the point of making wavedashing easier? There is no benefit to needlessly cluttering up the controls or creating pointless disjoints between wavedashing and wavelanding.

You're thinking in terms of all-or-nothing. I believe what I really want is a MvC-style dash command action for Smash. Not to be hacked into Melee, Brawl, or even Project M, but perhaps in a new Smash game. I'm trying to iron out a good way to see if we could think of something similar to wavedashing so that we won't have to obsess over the entire lack of a similar option throughout all Smash games and/or try to play around with the physics to come up with a poor substitute like perfect pivoting in Smash U.

 

[Acryte]

OMG this thread is giving me a headache...

1. Rolling is not even close to wavedashing in terms of application. There's a mod that kills you for rolling because it's a ridiculous GOOD tool at lower levels. That doesn't mean it's a useless tool at high levels.
2. Dash attacks are not useless. Not sure how anyone can think this if you watch matches, but you are a new user so w/e, you get a pass.
3. If you want to make wavedashing into a real mechanic, just explain how to do it in the goddamn game manual. It already has its own animation for ****'s sake. What more do you need? In the same way you can release the jump button quickly to SH or FH, you can WD shorter or further distances by airdodging at differing angles.

Thank you.

 

[ItsChon]

Wavedashing is fine the way it is now. Changing it into a button just so we can call it by another name is pointless semantics.

 

[Quillion]

Wavedashing is fine the way it is now. Changing it into a button just so we can call it by another name is pointless semantics.

Well, it's never going to come back even if they somehow decide to bring the directional air dodge back, so it would be better to have a compromise instead of arguing that every single subtlety of Melee's mechanics need to come back. Quit being so defensive and keep an open mind.

 

[ItsChon]

Well, it's never going to come back even if they somehow decide to bring the directional air dodge back, so it would be better to have a compromise instead of arguing that every single subtlety of Melee's mechanics need to come back. Quit being so defensive and keep an open mind.

Nothing to discuss. It's not going to come back, and there isn't much of a way to turn it into a command action. That would be like switching the joystick with buttons. It's just not possible, or if it is, it won't be nearly as good/useful/easy to use. Take your pick.

 

[Quillion]

Nothing to discuss. It's not going to come back, and there isn't much of a way to turn it into a command action. That would be like switching the joystick with buttons. It's just not possible, or if it is, it won't be nearly as good/useful/easy to use. Take your pick.

You know what, you're right. I'll just post my idea for a MvC-like dash command in the other thread in the NintenZone section. Let's lock this thread before people start getting even more defensive.

 

[ItsChon]

You know what, you're right. I'll just post my idea for a MvC-like dash command in the other thread in the NintenZone section. Let's lock this thread before people start getting even more defensive.

Accuses me of being defensive. Proceeds to be defensive. Chill out, we're just having a discussion. If you think I'm wrong, argue your point.

 

[Quillion]

Accuses me of being defensive. Proceeds to be defensive. Chill out, we're just having a discussion. If you think I'm wrong, argue your point.

Well, at least I can thank you for letting me share my idea.

But as I said in the OP, I just want the initial dash to be more versatile. I'm actually open for the wavedash+Melee air dodge to return (if only for wavelanding and wavehogging), but if wavedashing is the ONLY versatile-burst-of-speed option, and the game forces you to learn it like Project M, I think that's just bad design. The reason I believe this isn't because I suck at it (I'm fully willing to practice to be good at it in Melee alone), but it's because there are tons of fighting games that have that sort of option mapped to a simple command rather than making it a consequence of another otherwise unrelated mechanic.

And you can watch this video before you say I suck at wavedashing: