How would you rate Bayonetta's Difficulty?

[KenMeister]

And by that I mean to play?
Alot of people had hypothesized Bayonetta being a pretty difficult character to play at launch due to her wonky neutral and intricate punish game, but with the way everyone is playing her now, this makes me wonder, is she not as hard to play as we thought she was? Is Bayonetta that easy to lab, or is this like Ryu where the limits are near-endless? Particularly because Ryu's skill ceiling was the reason not many people picked him up despite his Top 5 status. I'm not about to label her as easy, but how would you rate her difficulty to play compared to the rest of the cast and in general?

 

[Conn1496]

Well, personally, I don't think she's that difficult, but I can see why her kind of poor frame data and kinda bizarre moves and combos would make her difficult.

The thing about Bayo though is that her inputs aren't actually that hard at all, it's the knowledge. Intricately knowing how to play Bayonetta will take a lot more knowledge than Ryu, IMO, but far less input skill than even characters like Peach.

To put it into perspective. Peach's combos require far more precise inputs and hits than Bayo's, but a lot of Bayo's aren't true, and that's the issue. You have to know what you're pulling off and when, which isn't as huge an issue with other characters. It's not what you can do as Bayo that's the issue, it's keeping track of what you can't, and it shows in the limitless times I've seen people SD as her in FG, or carry on combos/strings that have long since whiffed.

Her skill cap is far more akin to that of Rosa's, where keeping track of what you're capable of at the time is more important than how fast you can input buttons. She's far more strategical and I like that about Bayo. -that being said, I think she's more difficult than Rosa, mostly because of her almost necessary combos where you have to space well to hit, and know what moves you do and don't have at your disposal and what is/isn't true. -and then you have witch time, which is a whole other beast. That being said, I don't plan on picking up Rosa any time soon, so I wouldn't be able to accurately compare them outside of theorising...

-and I mean, of course, this is all assuming a highest level of play, too...

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

ZSS is way harder to play effitiently, I can say that much.

 

[Conn1496]

ZSS is way harder to play effitiently, I can say that much.

...I dunno, I'll defend ZSS and say she's not as easy as other characters, but I think her lack of creative strings like Bayo's really don't do much in her favour to make her seem difficult. U-air isn't anywhere near as braindead as people think it is, but to do anything remotely similar as Bayo, it's a ton of different moves stringed together - and that's if you know which ones will true into eachother at the current %s you and your foe are at, not forgetting spacing, timing, etc...

Starting to play ZSS is probably far more difficult than Bayo - it's part of the reason I never picked up ZSS, honestly - but Bayo at top level is probably more difficult just due to the much larger base knowledge. ZSS is far more reflexive and about reading your opponent, which you have to do to win at Smash anyway. Bayo has extra layers of info you have to keep an eye on to really make the most of her.

That's my two-cents on the ZSS/Bayo comparison anyway.

 

[Satonakas]

Bayonetta doesn't seem that hard.... I honestly think that it's just getting the hang up matchups and her neutral game that seems more difficult but that probablyis just me...

 

[pikazz]

bayonetta is easy to learn on her options as she can do one move to another with ease (like Up B to SideB or Vice Versa) with powerful strings/combos play. which is easier compared to ZSS as she doesnt have that open field creativity.
ZSS has easy time with UAir -> UpB combos yes but doing that skills/creative deaths is harder than her BnB

whats hard with her thats my opinion is: When to do what, approaches and "old" habit.

when to do what means when you should do combos and with what moves. at 60%, should you go with an combo or a kill setup or UpB as a starter or SideB?

approaches is her approaches

"old" habit is if you get into the habit of only using the same combos. if it works it works yes but an skilled player will be used by that and either DI away from your combos or knows if the combo is true or not. Bayonetta really hates DI on her combos

 

[Conn1496]

I think the thing people are forgetting about Bayo's combos/strings is that they're actually quite situational. If your opponent is good, there's a ton of options and DI they can do to get away. Whereas I don't think there's much you can do against a good ZSS player's D-throw combos etc. since they're so solid.

ZSS' arguably simpler combos are more difficult to execute, yeah, but all of Bayo's true combos take a similar level of spacing, timing, and input, if not harder. -and a lot of Bayo's combos, if messed up, don't have much in the way of flexibility. ZSS's U-air isn't a particularly punishable move (Though, yeah, boost kick is, but most good ZSS players will use it wisely.), whereas Bayo's Witch Twist or Side-B (Her bread and butter.), if they miss, your opponent has ample time to space correctly and get a good punish IMO, so you have to know if your combos are safe or not. Not taking into consideration that the land-lag you get from double Witch Twist is monumental.

As I said in a previous post, Bayo is more difficult from an information standpoint, and that's the key problem. I don't think many people have huge trouble with inputs outside of Ryu's special inputs and Peach combos. -and while I admit ZSS, to play consistent, is arguably harder, that's something that just comes over time from playing a character, it's something you can get a feel for. I don't think you can inherently get a feel for Bayo without paying close attention to her moves, because there's always going to be that one person who can spot the holes in your combo game. -and trust me, Bayo has plenty, her combos/strings can be inconsistent as hell.

More options doesn't mean easier when the power and viability of those options is debatable to start with. ZSS, I don't think she has so much trouble with that, I feel her options, while some are punishing to miss, are pretty solid. Bayo feels punishing to miss a lot of the time, while already having hit/miss strings - and arguably, easy kill problems to boot. -and she doesn't even have the benefit of being safe with a lot of "get away" moves like ZSS, so even from a very raw gameplay standpoint, not taking into consideration combos, and strategies, Bayo is naturally going to take more skill because of her worse frame data.

ZSS is harder to start playing, as I said before, but I think her skill ceiling is much lower than Bayo's, just beecause of the knowledge Bayo basically demands of you to be good with.

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

These kinds of threads invite really condescending and cocky discussion unfortunately

Most people find her difficult because she does not play like a smash character, this has been the most popular opinion floating around. Her recovery is really trippy too because you need to get used to up b'ing then jumping then up b'ing again.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Let's please keep this topic within the Social, thank you