How would a spacies-banned tourney go?

[breezo]

What would a tournament without Fox and Falco look like? I think if those two were banned there is a lot more room for counterpicks and strategic gameplay without having to worry about the top two. Discuss!

 

[SAUS]

Then shiek/jiggs would probably kill everyone and games in general will be slower.

Why do you think fox and falco limit room for counterpicks and strategic gameplay?

 

[breezo]

Then shiek/jiggs would probably kill everyone and games in general will be slower.

Why do you think fox and falco limit room for counterpicks and strategic gameplay?

Mainly because they have really favorable matchups against a lot of the cast and do pretty well on most stages. The rest of the high tier can outplay eachother and its a bit more even.

 

[SAUS]

Mainly because they have really favorable matchups against a lot of the cast and do pretty well on most stages. The rest of the high tier can outplay eachother and its a bit more even.

Spacies can be outplayed.

How about strategic gameplay? I don't feel like they limit it.

Sure, they may not have character counterpicks, but there are still stage counterpicks (and Marth is still considered good against spacies).

 

[breezo]

Spacies can be outplayed.

How about strategic gameplay? I don't feel like they limit it.

Sure, they may not have character counterpicks, but there are still stage counterpicks (and Marth is still considered good against spacies).

I guess, I just think it would be interesting to see the metagame minus its best characters.

 

[SAUS]

I guess, I just think it would be interesting to see the metagame minus its best characters.

That's fair I think I came on a little strong because it bugs me when people say that spacies are OP or that they somehow ruin the game. Some people treat them as though they are the metaknights of this game, as though they are so godly that no other characters stand a chance.

I think Shiek would be quite strong, but puff gives her some trouble (I can't truly comment on this because I don't play either character). I think ICs also give her trouble? But then ICs have trouble against Peach. Does anyone besides fox have a good matchup against Jigglypuff? I guess there's young link lol (I don't know if it's truly his advantage or not, again, since I don't play either character).

The top character would probably be between puff and shiek. I think Marth would lose a little bit of preference because he wouldn't be able to play against spacies (which there are quite a few of) and Falcon would go up a little because his worst matchups are spacies.

I think most people below the top characters would still be considered super bad because shiek keeps many of them down there. The tier list without Shiek or spacies would be interesting to look at.

 

[breezo]

That's fair I think I came on a little strong because it bugs me when people say that spacies are OP or that they somehow ruin the game. Some people treat them as though they are the metaknights of this game, as though they are so godly that no other characters stand a chance.

I think Shiek would be quite strong, but puff gives her some trouble (I can't truly comment on this because I don't play either character). I think ICs also give her trouble? But then ICs have trouble against Peach. Does anyone besides fox have a good matchup against Jigglypuff? I guess there's young link lol (I don't know if it's truly his advantage or not, again, since I don't play either character).

The top character would probably be between puff and shiek. I think Marth would lose a little bit of preference because he wouldn't be able to play against spacies (which there are quite a few of) and Falcon would go up a little because his worst matchups are spacies.

I think most people below the top characters would still be considered super bad because shiek keeps many of them down there. The tier list without Shiek or spacies would be interesting to look at.

Alright cool, thanks for the response! I do agree that Shiek would probably be pretty dominant and there would be a lot of Shieks and Puffs, but we could see a rise to some lower tiers due to their worst matchup (Fox/Falco) being removed.

 

[SAUS]

Alright cool, thanks for the response! I do agree that Shiek would probably be pretty dominant and there would be a lot of Shieks and Puffs, but we could see a rise to some lower tiers due to their worst matchup (Fox/Falco) being removed.

Most low tier characters have the worst time against Shiek because she can chain grab them for 50-70 damage. I don't think spacies actually stop that many characters from being higher on the tier list, but Shiek kills a large chunk of the cast pretty handily.

 

[1MachGO]

Have to agree with SAUS here, Fox and Falco probably have less "clear cut wins" over lower tiers than some of their fellow top and high tiers. Their greatness stems from the fact that they do good against the characters that utterly stomp mid tiers (Sheik, Falcon, Jiggs, and Peach) and are arguably the only two characters in the game who lack a "pure" counter (at least in the current meta). Fox and Falco actually help the viability of characters such as Pikachu, Samus, Doc, Luigi, Yoshi, etc.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Huh, I never really thought about that much. Otherwise, Sheik.

 

[TheGoat]

Then shiek/jiggs would probably kill everyone and games in general will be slower.

Why do you think fox and falco limit room for counterpicks and strategic gameplay?

 

[Walbytamer11]

Eh, puffs would really make a resurgence IMO. I think that the spacie (un)balance is necessary, even if they're clearly the best two characters in the game (under most circumstances...marth fd is just God awful). They have their weaknesses, it's just that the animals make more appearances in bracket because they're so evolved and people gravitate to the developed meta.

 

[LilBro]

If Spacies were banned, Melee would be less hype IMO.
Matches would be generally slower, and most of Melee's flashy, extended combos only work on Spacies.

 

[thesage]

Super Sheik Bros

 

[NJzFinest]

Then shiek/jiggs would probably kill everyone and games in general will be slower.

Why do you think fox and falco limit room for counterpicks and strategic gameplay?

Lol, Jiggs isn't as good vs lower tier'd characters. Sheik would just dominate though, yes. Maybe Falcon and Peach too, but def not Jiggs.

 

[Zylo]

I honestly think that a much more interesting tournament would be if SHEIK were banned, not spacies. She isn't particularly overpowered against most of high tier, but she makes mid and low tiers invalid.

 

[burntfish44]

hm or just:
all captain falcon
best of 3.
1 stock.
1 minute.
if you're hit by a falcon punch you lose the set.
srs bsns.

 

[tan(90]

I was thinking lots and lots of Marths, because Marth can be a relatively easy character to play.

 

[SAUS]

I was thinking lots and lots of Marths, because Marth can be a relatively easy character to play.

Marth gains a lot of power by being one of the strongest characters against the most popular characters (fox and falco). I think he would lose potency with 0 spacies running around. He's not particularly good at other matchups, either (including a bunch of mid and low tier characters).

Honestly, I agree Zylo:

I honestly think that a much more interesting tournament would be if SHEIK were banned, not spacies. She isn't particularly overpowered against most of high tier, but she makes mid and low tiers invalid.

Leaving spacies in and taking out Shiek would be quite interesting.

 

[Red Rice]

I honestly think that a much more interesting tournament would be if SHEIK were banned, not spacies. She isn't particularly overpowered against most of high tier, but she makes mid and low tiers invalid.

Qerb says differently. But it's certainly not an easy MU

 

[tan(90]

What about a tournament where all S and A tier'd characters would be banned? That would be really exciting.

 

[Red Rice]

What about a tournament where all S and A tier'd characters would be banned? That would be really exciting.

Some tournaments have low/mid tier tournaments as side events. I'm a huge advocate of the Falcon only tourneys. My Falcon dittos on YS have been legendary

 

[ChivalRuse]

Ah, if spacies didn't exist. Pikachu is worse Fox so he'd be played a lot more. Falcon would be played by people who liked playing fast.

I would personally play Zelda.

 

[1MachGO]

Marth gains a lot of power by being one of the strongest characters against the most popular characters (fox and falco). I think he would lose potency with 0 spacies running around. He's not particularly good at other matchups, either (including a bunch of mid and low tier characters).

This is actually a common misconception, IMO. Sheik is in a caliber of her own when it comes to wrecking mid + low tiers, but Marth is probably the next one in line. The belief that he is weak is mostly the fault of Marth players simply being bad against floaties. This is because Marth's BnB strategy against lower tiers is completely different than his one against spacies and it was wholly underdeveloped within the modern meta until recently. I'm sorry to say this, but any Marth player with a solid handle on PP's style of noncommittal aggression against floaties will be able to beat any mid or low tier of equal skill.

If you don't believe me, I will simply direct you to the token advice pretty much all mid and low tiers give each other regarding the match up which generally relies on "baiting Marth." I cannot begin to elaborate on how counter intuitive and outright ironic this advice is in terms of trying to give the impression Marth "isn't that bad" for lower tiers. If your sole strategy is to prey on the Marth player's own over confidence in his character's tier placement, then clearly it is Marth players who do not understand the advantages their own character possesses.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Peach is up there in her ability to wreck lower tier characters, by the way.

But I agree that this non-committal aggressive style that everyone is talking about IS the way to play vs floaties and mid-to-low tiers. Marth just has too many advantageous setups and ease of reaction with dash dancing.

 

[tan(90]

Ah, if spacies didn't exist. Pikachu is worse Fox so he'd be played a lot more. Falcon would be played by people who liked playing fast.

I would personally play Zelda.

I would be Young Linking >:D

 

[Zone]

This is actually a common misconception, IMO. Sheik is in a caliber of her own when it comes to wrecking mid + low tiers, but Marth is probably the next one in line. The belief that he is weak is mostly the fault of Marth players simply being bad against floaties. This is because Marth's BnB strategy against lower tiers is completely different than his one against spacies and it was wholly underdeveloped within the modern meta until recently. I'm sorry to say this, but any Marth player with a solid handle on PP's style of noncommittal aggression against floaties will be able to beat any mid or low tier of equal skill.

If you don't believe me, I will simply direct you to the token advice pretty much all mid and low tiers give each other regarding the match up which generally relies on "baiting Marth." I cannot begin to elaborate on how counter intuitive and outright ironic this advice is in terms of trying to give the impression Marth "isn't that bad" for lower tiers. If your sole strategy is to prey on the Marth player's own over confidence in his character's tier placement, then clearly it is Marth players who do not understand the advantages their own character possesses.

You mean the same way everyone beats marth?

Fox relys marth making mistakes.
Falcon

It's not unheard of to bait marth by weaving in and out of his range.

That's called footsies.

Marth isn't invincible by always playing retreat aerials. Eventually he'll be out of space to retreat to.

 

[1MachGO]

You mean the same way everyone beats marth?

Fox relys marth making mistakes.
Falcon

It's not unheard of to bait marth by weaving in and out of his range.

That's called footsies.

Marth isn't invincible by always playing retreat aerials. Eventually he'll be out of space to retreat to.

I never said anything about spacing aerials. That is practically the complete opposite of PP's style of non-committal aggression (lol retreating aerials is both defensive AND committal)

What PP does (vs. floaties, mind you) is be incredibly invasive with Marth's dash dancing. He doesn't actually do anything that can be easily punished while simultaneously threatening space with a potential attack/grab. Through this, Marth is able to able to force the hand of his opponent (which he can easily counter attack) or force them into a bad position where their options become limited (by the ledge/in the air). PP utilizes this strategy to great effect vs. Armada where he is able to prevent Peach from pulling turnips or really working her own spacing game by always being there with the threat of an attack. When Armada is forced into a bad position, he then takes damage.

You see, Marth outmobilizes and outranges the grand majority of the cast on the ground and has a superfluous amount of anti-air options. How can you play footsies with a character that has almost every imaginable advantage in footsies? Marth can play the same "baiting" game to a greater effect than almost every floaty in the game (particularly lower and mid tiers)

Not only did you confuse the strategy I was specifically talking about, you seemed to miss the group I was referring to (floaties and lower tiers). If you hadn't, you wouldn't have cited Falcon and Fox as counter examples. The fastfallers distinguish themselves for their amazing mobility which gives them more options to compete with Marth in neutral (Falco has worse overall mobility than Marth but he has lasers to make up for it). However, Marth still outranges them and has an extremely powerful punish game so he still is able to compete with them, albeit, using different BnB's.

 

[Twitchy]

Spacies can be outplayed.

agreed.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Space_animal_slayer

 

[-Dubs]

If and were banned, then and would wreck everyone.

Besides, it makes sense that the two hardest characters to play are the best.

 

[1MachGO]

Besides, it makes sense that the two hardest characters to play are the best.

Define "hardest". Fox and Falco have more technical potential and require more technical skill, but does that necessarily make them "harder" to play than a character like pichu at the top level of competition?

Hell noooo

 

[brandongeren]

A Sheik-banned tourney would be a lot more interesting. Sheik's down throw is a huge limiting factor keeping lower tier characters from being good.