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How to tell you've l cancelled?

Spoice

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I keep trying to do l cancels with Marth and Fox, but I can't tell the difference between an l cancelled shield that's been put up after the move and a non l cancelled shield after the move, can some one help me out please?

Also, is there any way to use L/R to l cancel without activating the shield?
I have a feeling I don't fully understand the concept of, and how to correctly execute, l cancelling.
 
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Joined
Aug 6, 2008
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You need to have pressed the shield button for at least a frame (out of 60) before hitting the ground. However, you need to touch the ground within a specific time window from having pressed the shield button to get the L-cancel. I think the window is like 7-8 frames. Its lenient enough timing.

I am honestly not sure how you can tell if you got it or not without resorting to some visual acuity with the moveset or an intuitive feel for it. To me, missing L-cancel with Marth's Dair is pretty jarring. I have gotten the timing down on say SH FF Fair and dash away almost immediately. Missing the L-cancel screws up with that timing and you know that you missed it that way.

The shield issue is easily fixed by not holding shield when you try to L-cancel. Simply press it and do not hold. If you are still getting that issue of shield even with quick presses I would say you are pressing shield button way too late.
 
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Spoice

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You need to have pressed the shield button for at least a frame (out of 60) before hitting the ground. However, you need to touch the ground within a specific time window from having pressed the shield button to get the L-cancel. I think the window is like 7-8 frames. Its lenient enough timing.
What's the importance of frames? Am I supposed to be able to memorise perfectly how long a frame is or something? I see all these videos that count the frames in the corner and I feel like what's holding me back is that I can't "count" frames, if that makes sense.
 

20YY SS | Saiblade

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What's the importance of frames? Am I supposed to be able to memorise perfectly how long a frame is or something? I see all these videos that count the frames in the corner and I feel like what's holding me back is that I can't "count" frames, if that makes sense.
Nah, you don't need to count them. Just get the feel down. 99% of all players don't count frames, myself included.
 

Spoice

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Nah, you don't need to count them. Just get the feel down. 99% of all players don't count frames, myself included.
So I should be able to tell something like when I fair with marth, on frame five, I can act out of it. (just a random example, probably not true)
 

20YY SS | Saiblade

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So I should be able to tell something like when I fair with marth, on frame five, I can act out of it. (just a random example, probably not true)
No, haha. You should just by feel know when you can act out of it.
 
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Opps. Yeah, the frame stuff was not the important thing. I was trying to give you a better understanding of how the mechanic worked since you said you thought you might not be understanding it right. You press the shield button before hitting the ground and it cuts the landing lag of any aerial you were using in half.

The next thing I was trying to show you was what you might be doing wrong.

* You have to press the shield button after you do the aerial. But, you have to press it shortly before hitting the ground (compared to say hitting the shield button super early). This might be why you do not get the reduced landing lag.

* Since you were shielding after the landing lag of your aerial finished that means you are holding the shield button for too long. Its fine to hold it, but to avoid shielding you simply have to let go of shield button before you come out of the landing lag of the whatever aerial you used.

For the other question earlier...
What's the importance of frames? Am I supposed to be able to memorise perfectly how long a frame is or something? I see all these videos that count the frames in the corner and I feel like what's holding me back is that I can't "count" frames, if that makes sense.
No one ever counts frames in a match. The game updates the TV at a rate of 60 frames per second. That is too fast for anyone to count. A few people dabble in frames outside of a match to help prove if your characters can do certain things or not.

As an example, if Fox Dair's your shield, gets the L-cancel to cut the landing lag, and goes into his shine (downB) a character like Marth can never shield grab Fox's Lcanceled Dair -> DownB if done correctly. Knowing how the game works and the duration of these things (knowing the frames) helps you arrive at that conclusion. So, when I am in a match with my marth against a Fox I know I should probably not try to shield grab a fox if they Dair my shield as I can get hit by DownB out of it.

So, yeah, knowing how the game works and doing some frame data outside of playing the game helps me arrive at certain conclusions and tweak small things about how I play the game.
 
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Spak

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Melee (and a majority of other games) run at 60 frames per second (60 FPS), so that means 1 frame = 1/60 (0.016 with the 6 repeating) seconds. The L-Cancel window is 6 frames before you hit the ground, so you can hit the shoulder button anywhere in the 0.1 seconds before you hit the ground and congratulations, you just L-Cancelled.

Honestly though, all the frame data in the world won't help you get the feel for L-Cancelling. just need to sit down with a bottle of root beer, a bag of cheese puffs, and a GameCube controller so you can commit it to muscle memory.
 
D

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If you play for a while it gets easier to know when you missed one because you expect to be able to do a move right after but nothing happens, and it's generally slower.
 

DYLirious94

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Jan 13, 2014
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Like xeylode said about fox's dair..a good way to tell if you are or aren't L cancelling is to go to training and dair the cpu with fox into a shine right after..if the combo counter is at 1 you missed it..if it's anything other than that, you L cancelled. That will give you a rough estimate of how close to the ground you need to be to input the cancel.
 

kyaputenfarukon07

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Aug 20, 2011
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If you have 20xx or access to melee + debug mode

you can use frame advance + toggled action states else

in training mode slow the game down and try l cancel to see the effects + @ DYLirious94 DYLirious94 method
 
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FE_Hector

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As far as counting frames goes, I do a bit of programming myself, so let me clear this up. If humans were computers, our eyes would update at around 50 FPS. Put simply, you cannot count frames, even if you're M2K. Knowing almost exactly the frame data and getting a really good feel for how it works is a great option, but the fact that most video games look so smooth is because they actually update a little faster than the human eye can see.

As far as knowing whether or not you L-Canceled goes, go grab Bowser. I'd suggest going into an infinite time match so you can see it exactly, but take him and Short hop -> bair. Watch how painfully long he takes to roll back onto his feet and think about the 50 billion possible punishes during that roll. Now SH -> bair and press the L or R button right as Bowser hits the ground. If he's still taking a painfully long time to get back up, you messed up your timing. Keep trying it out for a little bit and you should be able to figure it out. After that, switch over to your main and try to apply the same idea. Try right as your character lands, it seems to work for me. If you need the L-Cancel for your SHFFLs, I wouldn't suggest doing them in place. Here's how I taught myself to SHFFL after getting a feel for all the individual concepts.

1.) Start running across the stadium, consistently short hopping.
2.) Once you get a good feel for that, add in an aerial to it and practice that a little.
3.) Next, add in the fast fall to the rest of it.
4.) Finally, L-cancel your aerials. I would recommend seeing how quickly you can get back to dashing after the aerial without an L-Cancel first so you'll know if you reacted quickly enough to get the L-Cancel itself.
It's a bit tedious, but it worked for me.
 

Spak

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Pretty sure our eyes see faster than 50 fps.
Our eyes can probably see more than 50 FPS, but our brain can't process the images much faster than that. Usually, films can actually get away with ~24 FPS because if they blur the frames, our brain percieves whatever is happening as a fluid motion.
 

kyaputenfarukon07

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Aug 20, 2011
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267
How do I access the debug mode in a regular copy of melee?
If you have action replay or have an melee iso with debug mode added
but since you do not have it then the training mode method applies
 
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The Young Izzy Iz

Smash Apprentice
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Aug 6, 2014
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For the other question earlier...

No one ever counts frames in a match. The game updates the TV at a rate of 60 frames per second. That is too fast for anyone to count. A few people dabble in frames outside of a match to help prove if your characters can do certain things or not.

As an example, if Fox Dair's your shield, gets the L-cancel to cut the landing lag, and goes into his shine (downB) a character like Marth can never shield grab Fox's Lcanceled Dair -> DownB if done correctly. Knowing how the game works and the duration of these things (knowing the frames) helps you arrive at that conclusion. So, when I am in a match with my marth against a Fox I know I should probably not try to shield grab a fox if they Dair my shield as I can get hit by DownB out of it.

So, yeah, knowing how the game works and doing some frame data outside of playing the game helps me arrive at certain conclusions and tweak small things about how I play the game.
This is a bit of off-topic but I wanted to discuss it briefly: ever character sub-section has a thread dedicated to hitboxes and frame data. If you haven't looked at the thread related to your specific main, you probably should. Getting to know the frames for your character's moves can tell you a lot about what is and isn't possible for that character and seeing the hitboxes can, at times, be really jarring. Some hitboxes just absolutely don't make any sense at all.

For example: Jigglypuff's back-air extends far beyond what it conceivably should (covering way more than her foot), Ganondorf's Down-air turns literally his entire body into three giant hitboxes each with different knock back properties, Sheik's dash attack has her hitboxes inside her chest and stomach instead of her hands when she's clearly making a swiping motion.

Knowing the distance of the hitboxes instead of just relying on what your character looks like they can hit will make your spacing game improve substantially practically over-night because you'll know intuitively what moves have what distances at what times.

Hope that helps a bit.
 
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The Young Izzy Iz

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@ The Young Izzy Iz The Young Izzy Iz :
Why quote me? Are you telling me this or telling Spoice this?
Sorry. I'm new to the forum's so I don't know exactly how name linking works. In regards to the quote: what you said was relevant to the topic I discussed and was my impetus for writing it so I made it (your half of the discussion) easily available for anyone skimming the thread later.
 
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No problems. Yeah, this is the only forum I have been on that gives you that sort of feedback when you use @(name) or quote someone.

Otherwise, the hitbox animations explain a ton of stuff at times. Roy's dash attack being incomplete.
 

mythbust4000

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if you cant tell the difference try putting on a flash white code or a flash red code
here are the codes
Flash White on Successful L-Cancel (v1.02) [InternetExplorer]:
*Do not use with "Flash Red on Unsuccessful L-Cancel"*

C208D6A0 00000002
C00600E8 39E000D4
99E30564 00000000
C20C0148 0000000C
387F0488 89FE0564
2C0F00D4 41820008
48000048 39E00091
99FE0564 3DE0C200
91FE0518 91FE051C
91FE0520 91FE0524
3DE00000 91FE0528
91FE052C 91FE0530
3DE0C280 91FE0534
3DE0800C 61EF0150
7DE903A6 4E800420
60000000 00000000

Flash Red on Unsuccessful L-Cancel (v1.02) [Achilles,InternetExplorer]:
*Do not use with "Flash White on Successful L-Cancel"*

C208D690 00000003
88A5067F 2C050007
4180000C 39E000D4
99E30564 00000000
C20C0148 0000000C
387F0488 89FE0564
2C0F00D4 41820008
4800004C 39E00091
99FE0564 3DE0437F
91FE0518 3DE0C200
91FE0524 3DE00000
91FE051C 91FE0520
91FE0528 91FE052C
91FE0530 3DE0C280
91FE0534 3DE0800C
61EF0150 7DE903A6
4E800420 00000000
 

Gilbz

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Mar 4, 2015
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MrGilbz
20XX is extremely helpful for l cancelling because you can set it to blink white if you hit it or flash red when you miss it. I am pretty new to the smash scene and that's how I learned it.
 
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