How to Reverse N-Air?

[Isen]

Title says it all. I see this move talked about a lot and I don't know how to do it. Could anyone explain it?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Look at the hithox
then try messing around with the cpus

 

[Isen]

Look at the hithox
then try messing around with the cpus

I don't know what you mean.

 

[Kally Wally]

Depending on what part of the attack you hit with, it launches at different angles.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I don't know what you mean.

What I mean is, look at the thread that disscusses his nair. It shows the hitbox. Let that thread marinate in yo brain. Then play with the game and try to hit with the different parts of it.

 

[JOE!]

You have to hold the controller backwards

 

[Isen]

What I mean is, look at the thread that disscusses his nair. It shows the hitbox. Let that thread marinate in yo brain. Then play with the game and try to hit with the different parts of it.

Okay I thought that there was some sort of technique involved in reversing the aerial quickly. I've seen something like a RAR mentioned?

 

[JOE!]

Real talk:

http://smashboards.com/threads/super-training-charizard-frame-data-thread.342681/

This thread here goes over all but Charizard's Specials and Throws (due to him not working on BBox at the moment...)

This picture here shows the full range of Nair relative to Zard. The back hits are each high-range disjoints, which means approaching with your back to the foe can be very beneficial, a "Reverse Nair".

 

[BluntedMask]

What you are thing of is RAR or Reverse Aerial assault. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwk3VgZDuEs

You want to space it so that the fire part of the tail hits them. Even if they shield it you will be safe with good spacing.

 

[Mera Mera]

What you are thing of is RAR or Reverse Aerial assault. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwk3VgZDuEs

You want to space it so that the fire part of the tail hits them. Even if they shield it you will be safe with good spacing.

While it is safe compared to most other options, wavedash forward out of shield -> anything will punish rising shorthop reverse nair if you hit with the early part of the swing. That said, you should still use rising shorthop reverse nair, since has pretty great burst range, but sometimes intentionally miss with the first part of the swing and drift closer to steal space and/or hit with the second swing if that makes sense. Also, admittedly very few people wavedash out of shield to punish things, so if they don't do that then feel free to abuse them for it.

Other prime examples of moves that seem safe but aren't if the person wavedashes out of shield to punish: DDD's f-tilt, Mewtwo's d-tilt and f-tilt, Roy's f-tilt (sometimes) ect.

 

[Heroofhatz]

While it is safe compared to most other options, wavedash forward out of shield -> anything will punish rising shorthop reverse nair if you hit with the early part of the swing. That said, you should still use rising shorthop reverse nair, since has pretty great burst range, but sometimes intentionally miss with the first part of the swing and drift closer to steal space and/or hit with the second swing if that makes sense. Also, admittedly very few people wavedash out of shield to punish things, so if they don't do that then feel free to abuse them for it.

Other prime examples of moves that seem safe but aren't if the person wavedashes out of shield to punish: DDD's f-tilt, Mewtwo's d-tilt and f-tilt, Roy's f-tilt (sometimes) ect.

Despite this though, Nair is an incredibly good spacing/combo/pressure/projectile counter/pretty much a lot of your basic game, I'm tempted to say it's almost 95% safe on shield, 100% if you start it the moment you land so you get only the first few hitboxes. Also I've had a lot of people try to WD OOS to punish it, but you really either need a good WD or I've spaced it wrong and deserved to get hit. Always lean towards mispacing it a little long like Black Rain said, because that way the comeback of the tail will still hit and keep you safe.

Learning to RAR Nair is paramount to learning Zard, though the timing can be a little weird, if you're finding that you only RAR about half of the time, it may be that you're doing it a little too fast, try and slow down the input by a few frames and soon enough you'll be able to do it like Yomi :D.

 

[Mera Mera]

Despite this though, Nair is an incredibly good spacing/combo/pressure/projectile counter/pretty much a lot of your basic game, I'm tempted to say it's almost 95% safe on shield, 100% if you start it the moment you land so you get only the first few hitboxes. Also I've had a lot of people try to WD OOS to punish it, but you really either need a good WD or I've spaced it wrong and deserved to get hit. Always lean towards mispacing it a little long like Black Rain said, because that way the comeback of the tail will still hit and keep you safe.

Learning to RAR Nair is paramount to learning Zard, though the timing can be a little weird, if you're finding that you only RAR about half of the time, it may be that you're doing it a little too fast, try and slow down the input by a few frames and soon enough you'll be able to do it like Yomi :D.

I will clarify that I've only had Frootloop punish raising nair (hitting with the early fire hit). Frootloop, incidentally, is the best player in WI. When he did it the first time, it surprised the hell out of me, but he wavedashed -> grab (maybe a short dash before the grab?) me consistently with Sheik, and he wavedashed -> dash -> nair with fox consistently. He did this with all his characters, and on the rare occasion that he timed the wavedash late (losing frames after the shieldstun), he still wavdashed towards me and pressured me by him being uncomfortably close when I landed.

I'll grant you that most players will not do this, but if they do, hitting with the early part of rising nair is not safe on shield. I still think Nair is good in neutral, and I still think that nair is his best move. And I still use it plenty in neutral, even hitting with the early hit against even frootloop. I'm just saying that if the player is high enough level, you have to be more careful than you think. Generally I only go for it against frootloop when he's at the far edge of his dash dance (meaning he's about to turn back around and dash back at me) and I space it so he's likely to run into the early reverse rising fire.

 

[Heroofhatz]

I will clarify that I've only had Frootloop punish raising nair (hitting with the early fire hit). Frootloop, incidentally, is the best player in WI. When he did it the first time, it surprised the hell out of me, but he wavedashed -> grab (maybe a short dash before the grab?) me consistently with Sheik, and he wavedashed -> dash -> nair with fox consistently. He did this with all his characters, and on the rare occasion that he timed the wavedash late (losing frames after the shieldstun), he still wavdashed towards me and pressured me by him being uncomfortably close when I landed.

I'll grant you that most players will not do this, but if they do, hitting with the early part of rising nair is not safe on shield. I still think Nair is good in neutral, and I still think that nair is his best move. And I still use it plenty in neutral, even hitting with the early hit against even frootloop. I'm just saying that if the player is high enough level, you have to be more careful than you think. Generally I only go for it against frootloop when he's at the far edge of his dash dance (meaning he's about to turn back around and dash back at me) and I space it so he's likely to run into the early reverse rising fire.

I agree that it is punishable, but it is incredibly hard. Also I believe that it you are getting WD OOS punished for it, you are using it in the wrong way. Personally I haven't run into anyone who has been able to do it (though many have tried) but it isn't meant to be spammed, it's meant to apply a reasonable amount of pressure very safely. Also in the case of frootloop I believe that wasn't reacting to a Nair, he was predicting it and punishing accordingly (though I could be wrong, I would have to see some matches). Don't ever get into a habit of doing the same thing over and over again so that they can predict you. Doing it late in your jump is a fantastic way to keep it perfectly safe. But don't forget stuff like CC jab, it's also pretty dang safe as well.

Above all else remember that Nair is a tool in your toolbox, not a cure all to every problem.

Also one more thing, when in the neutral game if you focus on hitting with the tail as it comes back around you'll keep yourself safer. Only try and hit with the start up if your in late jump, or you know your going to hit (ex. they are just about to throw a projectile).

 

[Mera Mera]

I agree that it is punishable, but it is incredibly hard. Also I believe that it you are getting WD OOS punished for it, you are using it in the wrong way. Personally I haven't run into anyone who has been able to do it (though many have tried) but it isn't meant to be spammed, it's meant to apply a reasonable amount of pressure very safely. Also in the case of frootloop I believe that wasn't reacting to a Nair, he was predicting it and punishing accordingly (though I could be wrong, I would have to see some matches). Don't ever get into a habit of doing the same thing over and over again so that they can predict you. Doing it late in your jump is a fantastic way to keep it perfectly safe. But don't forget stuff like CC jab, it's also pretty dang safe as well.

Above all else remember that Nair is a tool in your toolbox, not a cure all to every problem.

I can promise you he was reacting to it. He doesn't block it every time as I'm not spamming it, but any time you can shield on reaction, you can punish on reaction.

I generally go for wavedash or crouch out of run -> ftilt as a mixup. Initially (when he blocked it) he was WDing out of shield to punish ftilt as well, but because it has IASA frames (which can cancel into anything but grab, shield, or jump), I canceled it into walk and then hit grab on reaction to counter when he WDed towards me. CC jab I pretty much only used if the opponent is in the air. I should probs use it more admittedly.

Also I hold my own against frootloop. He's a good bit better than me, but I have my winning streaks here and there. The only WI players that typically place higher than me are only him and Fade, so I'm doing pretty well. I plan on posting matches as soon as Fade uploads them.

Edit: I will sadly not have frootloop matches to upload though. He wasn't at the only tournament where we bothered to set up something to capture.

 

[Heroofhatz]

I can promise you he was reacting to it. He doesn't block it every time as I'm not spamming it, but any time you can shield on reaction, you can punish on reaction.

I generally go for wavedash or crouch out of run -> ftilt as a mixup. Initially (when he blocked it) he was WDing out of shield to punish ftilt as well, but because it has IASA frames (which can cancel into anything but grab, shield, or jump), I canceled it into walk and then hit grab on reaction to counter when he WDed towards me. CC jab I pretty much only used if the opponent is in the air. I should probs use it more admittedly.

Also I hold my own against frootloop. He's a good bit better than me, but I have my winning streaks here and there. The only WI players that typically place higher than me are only him and Fade, so I'm doing pretty well. I plan on posting matches as soon as Fade uploads them.

Edit: I will sadly not have frootloop matches to upload though. He wasn't at the only tournament where we bothered to set up something to capture.

Dang that sucks :/
Also I didn't know ftilt had IASA frames, I'll have to check that out. If you ever get any matches uploaded I would love to check them out :D

 

[JOE!]

Dang that sucks :/
Also I didn't know ftilt had IASA frames, I'll have to check that out. If you ever get any matches uploaded I would love to check them out :D

Where've you been?

Also, when does Nair semi-spike again?

 

[Heroofhatz]

Where've you been?

Also, when does Nair semi-spike again?

Sorry I'm bad at ftilt, it just never seemed safe to me, because 30 frames is a long time to wait even if it is IASA
That being said the more technology you know...I'll be sure to experiment with this. I guess I'm used to playing Link, who gets a very free shield grab if I hit his shield with ftilt.

Also by semi spike I meant "knocked back at a rather unfavorable angle which a lot of characters cannot recover if hit by" it says right there that the angle is shallower. but you're correct that it isn't a true semi spike.

my b

 

[JOE!]

Its cool

Generally, Ftilt is worth it due to slightly outranging Dtilt horizontally, on top of the sweet invulnerability window.

 

[Heroofhatz]

Its cool

Generally, Ftilt is worth it due to slightly outranging Dtilt horizontally, on top of the sweet invulnerability window.

I'll usually chain it out of a hit confirmed Nair, very rarely as an edge guard, but I'll see if I can incorporate it into my game. I guess when it comes to the horizontal game, Nair is the best in my eyes. And if you aren't doing a move it is sometimes even more scary for the person you're playing since any motion they make can get jabbed or dash Usmash in a heartbeat with good spacing.

Though the more tools I have in my toolbox...

 

[Mera Mera]

Sorry I'm bad at ftilt, it just never seemed safe to me, because 30 frames is a long time to wait even if it is IASA
That being said the more technology you know...I'll be sure to experiment with this. I guess I'm used to playing Link, who gets a very free shield grab if I hit his shield with ftilt.

Also by semi spike I meant "knocked back at a rather unfavorable angle which a lot of characters cannot recover if hit by" it says right there that the angle is shallower. but you're correct that it isn't a true semi spike.

my b

Yeah, ftilt isn't safe against everyone on shield, and it probably shouldn't be your most common approach. Honestly, a lot of what it's good for is countering when they've already committed to an attack or to a retreat. Like, if you aim your ftilt at the end of their dash dance that's near you, you know that at this point they will either keep going or turn around soon. If they keep going, there's a good chance they're thinking offensively and you'll probs catch them off guard (plus if they happen to jump in the approach they lose shield as an option). If they retreat, then even if they shield it they are facing the wrong way. This does mean that you do have to space it/time it so that if they retreat, you won't miss them though, but because of ftilt's pretty high burst range, this typically doesn't mean being all that much closer than hitting with the very tip.

For the characters that don't have tethers, you can't punish them for shielding really (they can wavedash in place or away out of shield and be fine). And they can't punish you really, cause if they wavedash -> something you can do the walk cancel (or dash cancel by dashing away). 31 frames sounds like a lot, but keep in mind there is shield stun, jump squat (Typically 3-4 frames, but can be 5, 6, or (bowser) 8 frames), Air time (1 frame), air dodge landing lag (10 frames) plus the start up frames on whatever they are doing. Admittedly, just theorycrafting, if they have a fast jab and their wavedash is far enough you might have to dash away or even do a shield option (you can walk to shield as well). I'm not sure. The only person who's wavedashed towards me out of shield consistently as a punish is frootloop, and he only uses so many characters. So far walk -> grab has countered his punish options from wavedash out of shield against ftilt but you never know.

You'll see from my matches though that despite me saying you should use nair with caution, it is my most commonly used move in neutral, and that rising reverse nair is used most often in particular. I'm trying to add tools myself 'cause no tool is perfect and I need more mixups to keep them guessing. The more you have, the better.

I've been doing this lately: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFH7iKAYPJQ The video only shows one use but it has many more. Basically, if you glide under a platform, adjust your angle to be a little lower (very briefly) and then glair, you will do a fast, long, often edgecanceled waveland (it's often edgecanceled even when done on the far end of longer platforms like the ones in battlefield). The key advantage this has to other character's wavelands (other than distance speed being better than most people's once initiated), is that you can do it when you are under the platform and the platform is a good bit in front of you. I most commonly use this to get off of platforms actually. Lets say you are on the right battlefield platform and they are at center stage. You dash away and go off the right edge of the platform, and they move in to steal the space you just gave them. Hold down and left, then hit b (doing a reverse glide) very shortly after (some pause) and A very shortly after (still holding down until you hit A) and you'll suddenly be going off the left side of the platform toward center stage. Fast fall and probs hit c-stick right for a bair to hit them (depends on where they are/what they are doing by this point). It's super awesome.

Edit: @ JOE! to be fair, in Heroofhatz defense on the nair semispike thing, since people fall during hitstun/knockback the angle does appear to be pretty low. But yeah, it isn't really a semispike (though it feels like one against spacies lol).

On a side note: has anyone realized how ridiculous neutral b is on spacies off stage? It'll hit them out of side B or up B, you don't have to time it, and it puts them lower than the stage (cause they fall so fast) meaning they have to up B which is pretty easy to dair (particularly if they go more up, since their disjoint on up B is on the sides of them, so if they go mostly up they have little to no upwards disjoint).

 

[Heroofhatz]

Yeah, ftilt isn't safe against everyone on shield, and it probably shouldn't be your most common approach. Honestly, a lot of what it's good for is countering when they've already committed to an attack or to a retreat. Like, if you aim your ftilt at the end of their dash dance that's near you, you know that at this point they will either keep going or turn around soon. If they keep going, there's a good chance they're thinking offensively and you'll probs catch them off guard (plus if they happen to jump in the approach they lose shield as an option). If they retreat, then even if they shield it they are facing the wrong way. This does mean that you do have to space it/time it so that if they retreat, you won't miss them though, but because of ftilt's pretty high burst range, this typically doesn't mean being all that much closer than hitting with the very tip.

For the characters that don't have tethers, you can't punish them for shielding really (they can wavedash in place or away out of shield and be fine). And they can't punish you really, cause if they wavedash -> something you can do the walk cancel (or dash cancel by dashing away). 31 frames sounds like a lot, but keep in mind there is shield stun, jump squat (Typically 3-4 frames, but can be 5, 6, or (bowser) 8 frames), Air time (1 frame), air dodge landing lag (10 frames) plus the start up frames on whatever they are doing. Admittedly, just theorycrafting, if they have a fast jab and their wavedash is far enough you might have to dash away or even do a shield option (you can walk to shield as well). I'm not sure. The only person who's wavedashed towards me out of shield consistently as a punish is frootloop, and he only uses so many characters. So far walk -> grab has countered his punish options from wavedash out of shield against ftilt but you never know.

You'll see from my matches though that despite me saying you should use nair with caution, it is my most commonly used move in neutral, and that rising reverse nair is used most often in particular. I'm trying to add tools myself 'cause no tool is perfect and I need more mixups to keep them guessing. The more you have, the better.

I've been doing this lately: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFH7iKAYPJQ The video only shows one use but it has many more. Basically, if you glide under a platform, adjust your angle to be a little lower (very briefly) and then glair, you will do a fast, long, often edgecanceled waveland (it's often edgecanceled even when done on the far end of longer platforms like the ones in battlefield). The key advantage this has to other character's wavelands (other than distance speed being better than most people's once initiated), is that you can do it when you are under the platform and the platform is a good bit in front of you. I most commonly use this to get off of platforms actually. Lets say you are on the right battlefield platform and they are at center stage. You dash away and go off the right edge of the platform, and they move in to steal the space you just gave them. Hold down and left, then hit b (doing a reverse glide) very shortly after (some pause) and A very shortly after (still holding down until you hit A) and you'll suddenly be going off the left side of the platform toward center stage. Fast fall and probs hit c-stick right for a bair to hit them. It's super awesome.

Wow, more tech I never knew. I knew that you could wave land from the ledge and onto platforms, but not at all like that. I will definitely experiment with that when I get a chance. You could even Nair if they were behind you and pop them up for an aerial chase. Also do you have any vids of you getting punished by WD OOS? I have a few friends who were speculative that it was possible.

 

[Mera Mera]

Wow, more tech I never knew. I knew that you could wave land from the ledge and onto platforms, but not at all like that. I will definitely experiment with that when I get a chance. You could even Nair if they were behind you and pop them up for an aerial chase. Also do you have any vids of you getting punished by WD OOS? I have a few friends who were speculative that it was possible.

I can try to do this myself to someone else using Zard next time I play with someone. Also even jump out of shield to aerial should work for most characters if you hit early with rising nair. Especially characters with fast aerials with forward range like Marth/Roy. Nair can't hit you once it's hit your shield. For now, lets break it down into frames and see if that makes sense:

Zard: shff air time: 27 frames. Early nair hits as early as frame 5. End L-canceled endlag is 15 frames on nair. Zard also experiences some hitlag for hitting the opponents shield, though it's probably less than shield stun.

So 27 - 5 + 15 + Hitlag = 37 + Hitlag

Opponent jumping to aerial: Jumpsquat 3-6 frames. aerial start up: 3-6 frames for fast things typically. Then there's shield stun and the time it takes for them to drift in range if need be (which it's likely not, since your tail will swing back around).

So (3 to 6) + (3 to 6) + Shieldstun = 6 to 12 + Shieldstun

Even if you you have to move horizontally to hit Zard, you would only count frames you had to move in addition to the aerial startup time, since you can do both at the same time.

Opponent wavedashing to something fast (we'll assume grab): Jumpsquat: 3-6 frames. Air time: 1 frame. Air dodge landing lag: 10 frames, grab start up: 3-8 frames (not sure what the range is, but 8 is relatively high, maybe not the highest and not counting tethers here)

So (3 to 6) + 1 + 10 + (3 to 8) + Shieldstun = (17 to 25) + Shieldstun

Which should leave some wriggle room for a dash if need be, especially for those closer to the 17 frame side. Also both characters with big grab range and characters with far wavedashes would easily be fine.

Note: Shieldstun > Hitlag, but the gap isn't huge.

 

[JOE!]

Only the tail like, immediately at your butt is grabbable don't forget.

Also, I swear I've hit with the 1st swing of Nair and then the last hit on somebody before...

 

[Mera Mera]

Only the tail like, immediately at your butt is grabbable don't forget.

Also, I swear I've hit with the 1st swing of Nair and then the last hit on somebody before...

Fair enough on the tail bit, I'll edit that out. But yeah it's definitely not possible to hit with the same move twice unless it's a multihit. Zard's nair is not. If you didn't fast fall it and just kept the hitbox out, and they shielded it early, they could do a little dance in your nair and be fine

 

[*Zen]

Only the tail like, immediately at your butt is grabbable don't forget.

Also, I swear I've hit with the 1st swing of Nair and then the last hit on somebody before...

Maybe you hit the first hit while the character was still invincible (coming back after being ko'd), then your latter one could hit when his invincibility wore off ?

 

[JOE!]

I think it was Olimar... so maybe I hit a pikmin that was "on" him as he fell, lol

 

[Heroofhatz]

I think it was Olimar... so maybe I hit a pikmin that was "on" him as he fell, lol

I swear I hit it twice sometimes, but it's probably just that I missed the startup.

 

[BluntedMask]

Why flamethrower when you can just land a sweetspot nair on someone recovering?(Assuming they are coming from below the stage and trying to sweetspot)
At most the nair will kill, at the least it sets up for another nair or bair. (

 

[Heroofhatz]

Why flamethrower when you can just land a sweetspot nair on someone recovering?(Assuming they are coming from below the stage and trying to sweetspot)
At most the nair will kill, at the least it sets up for another nair or bair. (

Flamethrower is more consistent, personally I don't like it but it's some people's prerogative. Also it builds damage like crazy. Zard has a ton of on the stage ledge guarding options, no one is best for every situation.

 

[tauKhan]

I can try to do this myself to someone else using Zard next time I play with someone. Also even jump out of shield to aerial should work for most characters if you hit early with rising nair. Especially characters with fast aerials with forward range like Marth/Roy. Nair can't hit you once it's hit your shield. For now, lets break it down into frames and see if that makes sense:

Zard: shff air time: 27 frames. Early nair hits as early as frame 5. End L-canceled endlag is 15 frames on nair. Zard also experiences some hitlag for hitting the opponents shield, though it's probably less than shield stun.

So 27 - 5 + 15 + Hitlag = 37 + Hitlag

Opponent jumping to aerial: Jumpsquat 3-6 frames. aerial start up: 3-6 frames for fast things typically. Then there's shield stun and the time it takes for them to drift in range if need be (which it's likely not, since your tail will swing back around).

So (3 to 6) + (3 to 6) + Shieldstun = 6 to 12 + Shieldstun

Even if you you have to move horizontally to hit Zard, you would only count frames you had to move in addition to the aerial startup time, since you can do both at the same time.

Opponent wavedashing to something fast (we'll assume grab): Jumpsquat: 3-6 frames. Air time: 1 frame. Air dodge landing lag: 10 frames, grab start up: 3-8 frames (not sure what the range is, but 8 is relatively high, maybe not the highest and not counting tethers here)

So (3 to 6) + 1 + 10 + (3 to 8) + Shieldstun = (17 to 25) + Shieldstun

Which should leave some wriggle room for a dash if need be, especially for those closer to the 17 frame side. Also both characters with big grab range and characters with far wavedashes would easily be fine.

Note: Shieldstun > Hitlag, but the gap isn't huge.

The shieldstun of unstaled nair is 6 or 7 frames, depending on the damage. The earliest frame you can act after wd oos from nair hit is like you said, shieldstun + jumpsquat + landing + 1 , which with fox is 3+10+ [6 or 7] +1 = 20 or 21. This leaves you with 17 or 18 frames for punish. Both attacker and blocker suffer hitlag, so it doesn't matter, but ironically the hitlag is also exactly 6 or 7 frames.

 

[Mera Mera]

Why flamethrower when you can just land a sweetspot nair on someone recovering?(Assuming they are coming from below the stage and trying to sweetspot)
At most the nair will kill, at the least it sets up for another nair or bair. (

The whole point is it covers multiple options. They second jump early and end up going for a high side B? That's fine; I can angle up. Nair's sweetspot is pretty projected and spacies have a lot of recovery options. Sure, if they're recovering low already it can be good, but I'd argue if they're going mostly up, then dair is also pretty free on them. If they are low but still going mostly sideways, then nair is probs best.

And again, I pretty much only do this against spacies. Seriously, try it. It shuts their recovery down way earlier and way more consistently.

 

[tauKhan]

Actually, the punish window on charizards early nair is very similar to marths sourspot fsmash. Marths fsmash hits on frame 10-13, has 6 frames of hitstun, and marth has IASA on frame 49, so the window is 35-38 frames with same hitstun. Considering how easy it is to punish, charizards propably shouldn't use early nairs often.

 

[JOE!]

Actually, the punish window on charizards early nair is very similar to marths sourspot fsmash. Marths fsmash hits on frame 10-13, has 6 frames of hitstun, and marth has IASA on frame 49, so the window is 35-38 frames with same hitstun. Considering how easy it is to punish, charizards propably shouldn't use early nairs often.

I often try to space only for the backswing, with the early hit as a "deterrant"

As for flamethrower, I've found that it really just does wonders in general vs a lot of the cast at the ledge, if not force them into a bad position, it simply evens up or puts you at % advantage so easily

 

[Mera Mera]

I often try to space only for the backswing, with the early hit as a "deterrant"

As for flamethrower, I've found that it really just does wonders in general vs a lot of the cast at the ledge, if not force them into a bad position, it simply evens up or puts you at % advantage so easily

I will warn that the floatier they are, the easier it is for them to smash DI (even offstage) up to you for a free hit if you keep it out long. They'll get enough damage that it might be worth it though. I guess it depends on how good they are at dualstick smash DI.

Also, it can still be used onstage if you use it briefly. Like Jon#s (not sure how his tag is spelled but the NY Charizard) uses it very briefly when he comes back onto the stage from the ledge (drop down -> second jump onto stage -> neutral b).

(not sure this thread is on topic anymore lol... my bad)

 

[JOE!]

Right, different folks need different applications of Flamethrower, but the times where you can send it out generally force some kind if reaction