How to patch up Greninja's bad neutral game?

[I speak Spanish too]

I asked around my community of their thoughts on Greninja, and most common answers I got was "he's has to commit to much" "unconvential gimmicky combos" "bad frame data". After some research of examining gameplay footage, and frame data I was surprised that common generalizations were not to far from the truth. Greninja's aerial approaches are kinda slow with the average start-up for his aerials being 11 frames. Not to mention that only two can effectively be used for spacing(f-air and b-air) his standing grab is slow for tomohawks are even viable. Most of his combo starters are unconvienant too as he gains the most from u-tilts, u-airs, and nairs. His grounded pressure is not that good either, its ok, but its not anything great like Little Mac or Ryu. After all this though, I've found out that greninja's neutral game is overall not safe, and high commitment. Is their anyway I can get around this? I've tried water shuriken zoning but its too slow and is not good for gaining momentum like mario's fireball or pikachu's thunder jolt. TLDR: what can i do to get my opponent out of neutral as quickly as possible? How should I play footsie's how can I effectively run around? I dont need convincing on how his neutral isn't bad.

 

[FullMoon]

The neutral is not just throwing safe moves. It's also being able to bait the opponent into doing a mistake. Greninja's mobility is excelent for the bait-and-punish playstyle since his slippery nature means he can get away from the opponent easily and also punish their mistakes from further away plus he has that dash grab.

They already patched up his neutral as well, a spaced F-Tilt is now safe on block and it has a great range so pivot F-Tilt is really good for pressuring and poking.

Practice your spacing with N-Air, F-Air and F-Tilt and learn to bait the opponent, that's how you're going to be succesful with Greninja in neutral.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

The neutral is not just throwing safe moves. It's also being able to bait the opponent into doing a mistake. Greninja's mobility is excelent for the bait-and-punish playstyle since his slippery nature means he can get away from the opponent easily and also punish their mistakes from further away plus he has that dash grab.

They already patched up his neutral as well, a spaced F-Tilt is now safe on block and it has a great range so pivot F-Tilt is really good for pressuring and poking.

Practice your spacing with N-Air, F-Air and F-Tilt and learn to bait the opponent, that's how you're going to be succesful with Greninja in neutral.

Meh, this is nothing ground breaking tbh. Greninja's will have hard trouble baiting stuff out since he has to take so long for his aerials to appear anyway. Like I said, If you bait out shield and fastfall his standing grab is still too slow. And btw his f-tilt is not a god send. It's still comes out in 10 frames and doesn't have much pushback. I find jabs better spacing too, on the ground at least. I gotta find something I cant give up on him. Thanks for the reply nonetheless.

 

[Coffee™]

Greninja's "tomohawk" is his dash grab. Space for it appropriately and it can function similarly. Also, what Fullmoon pointed out above in regards to his using his mobility to bait punishes is pretty spot on. You have to remember your opponent has to do things too. Those "things" fall into the realm of things you should specifically be looking for to punish with this character.

 

[C0rvus]

I have been labbing with Greninja and his options on a shielding opponent. He has a ton of options, some of which seem safe on shield, others not so much. But it's the mixup potential that seems strong. Crossup nair into retreating pivot f-tilt is a string I've been working on using. Mix that up with tomahawk grab, dair on shield, and double jump away, and your opponent will likely start to open up. The problem is getting them into shield often enough for it to work lol. Back to the lab...

 

[Shack]

Watch aMSa play. THere's vids in the videos thread.

I feel your pain. Greninja is more prediction based. You have to keep moving so your opponent doesn't have time to react and whiffs moves. Greninja's moves come out way to slow and do not stay out long (other than BAir/UAir). That makes it harder to just throw out buttons as you try to approach.

The best most reliable options I find are mixing up WSs from a distance, using short hop FAirs while retreating, and finding opportunities to use your dash grab. His neutral grab sucks, but his dash grab is so fast and has a lot of range. His short hop is really good and fast, I can get over projectiles easily and nail them with a FAir. AMSa also likes to use short hop HP as a pressure tool. It has to be done really low to the ground be effective. Short hop > Hydro Pump backwards then forward. It can also be done forward then back depending on how close you are to the opponent.

When it comes to a good GTFO move, he has none really, so don't mash. The best option you have when under pressure is to try to block, SS cancel to get out, jab/DTilt, or short hop out.

Greninja really requires you to out play your opponent. He doesn't really have an easy mode button or easy approach like some other characters. I also highly recommend learning to perfect pivot with him, being able to pivot his jab, UTilt and DTilt adds a lot more to his game play since he covers a good amount of ground and it sets up all his combos and kill moves.

 

[RKzero10]

Hey guys! I made a message about approaches and it's a long one. I didn't want to copy and past the WHOLE thing so I put the link instead. It's more or less about the neutral as well, so what do you guys think?

http://smashboards.com/threads/advice-on-different-approaches.403503/#post-19548482