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How To Needle Camp Effectively?

danyal999

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
46
First of all i'm new to forums so sorry if i'm breaking any rules or anything. Just thought id make a new thread.

Well my question is how to effectively needle camp with shiek? I generally want to needle camp when I take the first stock, to get a lot of extra credit, or when im down by a large percent. I find that I win more games by doing this and playing safe, then when i go all crazy and rushdown. Whats the most optimal way to do this?

I can do all the shiek needle tech btw and I tend to incorporate those alot, aswell as retreating fairs. Any strategies and tips would be appreciated.
 

ArikadoSD

the cream of the crop
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Not breaking any rules, but it's better to ask questions like this in...
The Sheik Social Thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/hyrule-hangout-sheik-social.324217/
or the Q&A Thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/new-...lp-with-sheik-ask-your-questions-here.381558/
There are many skilled Sheik players who frequent those threads and your question will be answered.

Asking questions like these in those threads helps to not clog up the boards :)
_Tree _Tree
stop mini-modding pls? .-.

this is actually a good question.

Anyway, to answer the op, needles' lag makes it not good to camp with at really low percents imo. At those percents I only use them as a punish from across the stage or to incorporate them into combos. At percents where needles pop them up however, that's when needle camping gets stronger.
 

_Tree

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this is actually a good question.
Agreed.

In order to become especially proficient at needle camping, its important to consider what needles themselves are actually doing. Look at the following picture:

Sheik stage control.png
URL in case the image doesn't insert: http://imgur.com/gallery/jIg79Km

For the slight amount of time that needles are active, that amount of the stage 'belongs' to you. You're limiting the stage options the opponent has, as they cannot traverse the majority of the stage as they'd like. They either have to jump to avoid the needles or shield them (which means no mobility). Since needles are so effective at this stage control, as well as their general superiority to all other proectiles, they effectively act as a magnet on your opponent. You can just sit there and throw needles at them, taking control of the stage while simultaneously damaging them, so they have to come to you.

Different opponents will have different measures for tackling our projectile. They can jump over them, do run > Shield > run, or their character might have a specific attribute well suited to punishing stationary projectiles (Bouncing Fish, for example). I actually find that needles in neutral is a great way for getting a feel for the skill of the other player. Better opponent will have much tighter methods of getting around it, while newbies and scrubs will usually deal with them in ways that play right into our hand, which brings me to my next point.

Since Needles are almost the ultimate neutral option (at least in terms of projectiles), the opponent has to adapt and choose options that counter-act what we are already doing off the bat. Scenario: We throw needles, so the opponent approaches with running shield as their primary counter-option. Here we already have them within our hand, as since our needles prompt them to shield, we can run up grab them in neutral due to them expecting needles.

This is why the idea of 'needle camping' isn't so straightforward in my opinion. You shouldn't approach needle camping as both the means and the end. See it as a low-risk method of leading to greater punishes. Needle camp at points, but use it gain information on their preferred neutral defenses and then move to punish those chosen options with the appropriate method. To this extent, I'd include both F-air and Needles within the 'definition' of needle camping (instead of just needles). Needles for the initial, long range zoning, but F-air for the close range encounters as your opponent makes it closer to you.

As for when, I'd say that it depends on the opponent (just like most things in this game). As a general rule of thumb though, needle camping at low percents is good as an approach-inducing option (relates a lot to all the stuff I discussed above). At high percents the disruption factor of needles grows as the opponent is flung much further by them. This is great for frustrating the opponent into choosing a dumb option, as well as just keeping them away. I wouldn't doubt a Sheik's ability to time out a Ganon by just needling and spacing F-airs well.

I'll leave it there for now since its 6AM over here. If I wake up, read this again and throw up a little in my mouth, I'll probably redo it.
 
Last edited:

WondrousMoose

Mind the antlers
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Agreed.

In order to become especially proficient at needle camping, its important to consider what needles themselves are actually doing. Look at the following picture:

URL in case the image doesn't insert: http://imgur.com/gallery/jIg79Km

For the slight amount of time that needles are active, that amount of the stage 'belongs' to you. You're limiting the stage options the opponent has, as they cannot traverse the majority of the stage as they'd like. They either have to jump to avoid the needles or shield them (which means no mobility). Since needles are so effective at this stage control, as well as their general superiority to all other proectiles, they effectively act as a magnet on your opponent. You can just sit there and throw needles at them, taking control of the stage while simultaneously damaging them, so they have to come to you.

Different opponents will have different measures for tackling our projectile. They can jump over them, do run > Shield > run, or their character might have a specific attribute well suited to punishing stationary projectiles (Bouncing Fish, for example). I actually find that needles in neutral is a great way for getting a feel for the skill of the other player. Better opponent will have much tighter methods of getting around it, while newbies and scrubs will usually deal with them in ways that play right into our hand, which brings me to my next point.

Since Needles are almost the ultimate neutral option (at least in terms of projectiles), the opponent has to adapt and choose options that counter-act what we are already doing off the bat. Scenario: We throw needles, so the opponent approaches with running shield as their primary counter-option. Here we already have them within our hand, as since our needles prompt them to shield, we can run up grab them in neutral due to them expecting needles.

This is why the idea of 'needle camping' isn't so straightforward in my opinion. You shouldn't approach needle camping as both the means and the end. See it as a low-risk method of leading to greater punishes. Needle camp at points, but use it gain information on their preferred neutral defenses and then move to punish those chosen options with the appropriate method. To this extent, I'd include both F-air and Needles within the 'definition' of needle camping (instead of just needles). Needles for the initial, long range zoning, but F-air for the close range encounters as your opponent makes it closer to you.

As for when, I'd say that it depends on the opponent (just like most things in this game). As a general rule of thumb though, needle camping at low percents is good as an approach-inducing option (relates a lot to all the stuff I discussed above). At high percents the disruption factor of needles grows as the opponent is flung much further by them. This is great for frustrating the opponent into choosing a dumb option, as well as just keeping them away. I wouldn't doubt a Sheik's ability to time out a Ganon by just needling and spacing F-airs well.

I'll leave it there for now since its 6AM over here. If I wake up, read this again and throw up a little in my mouth, I'll probably redo it.
The link is busted :/
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Great explanation _Tree _Tree
Beating me to the punch on explaining this and how effective needles are in this game in the Neutral...Was going to make a video on it if you don't beat me to the punch on that as well...
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
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19,346
One thing I thought should be pointed out are the fact that needles are not like Falco lasers in brawl or melee. Falco has a distinct advantage upon releasing a laser from a short hop. As in Falco could legitimately chain very well off a laser due to the no ending lag. If a laser hits a shield, Falco still had a frame advantage. Maybe a pointless comparison, but its more to illustrate the idea that sheik needles upon hit are not spectacular (at least early on). More its like, "oh, I took like 2%".

Here, the projectile has to be treated differently than those things due to the ending lag. Hitting a single needle can be powershielded and if Brawl days are anything to judge by people will get use to powershielding as the metagame evolves making the ending lag on Shiek's sole needle for a bit more vulnerable. As in you need more distance to use it safely. Charging needles has its downsides as you go while without using needles to simply charge it making it hard to gauge do you charge needles or focus more on defending yourself.

Even if you hit someone with needles you cannot very easily follow-up on them at a distance. Or even up close its more of a guessing game. The advantages are still there, but they are not stupendous. This is assuming you hit shields, are not hitting anyone with needles, or simply hitting someone and they stay grounded. The point to take away from this comparison is that early on in an opponent's stock you are pretty much getting free percentage. Or if the opponent reacts wrongly you might get slightly pressured situation to take advantage of. Though nothing concrete.

------------------------------------------------------​

The best benefit to needles I would say are when you get into mid and higher percents when the needles actually start to launch someone off the ground. They are amazing here because now you really have a truly legitimate advantage.

By hitting someone and them launching off the ground you get to traverse the stage unimpeded by their ability to counter attack. Even better is the fact that they are in the air now, but in the air and low to the ground.

This gives you freedom to run in and attempt to punish their landing site. Which should be good since airdodges and aerials into the ground as a whole are laggy enough for you to punish someone. Low to the ground is important because you can very easily see the projected landing sites if they choose to do nothing, use an aerial, or airdodge. This makes it very easy to know that all you have to do is keep dashing forward, then shield for example at the right spacing and timing depending upon where you see them going as they fall.

If someone 2nd jumps, it does not matter because they cannot 2nd jump again and you simply move near the next landing site with much the same situation. You close in on the landing site and punish them in ending lag.

------------------------------------------------------​

To me, the best approach to using needles is simply a very non-committal way to rack-up percentage for free in the early stages against your opponents stocks and add a little bit of variety into your attempts to break the neutral ground. Once percentages are high enough you want to start trying to use needles with the intent to not camp, but simply as a free way to get an advantage due to them launching into the air on a needle hit.
 
Last edited:

HoSmash4

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
688
The thing you have to remember with needle camping is that at low-mid% you are giving up some stage control for some guaranteed damage. At these percents, needles are more for conditioning of the shield/or finding out their responses to needle camping. However at higher percents, needle camping can net you stage control, which means you can get a kill easier (sheik doesnt kill from the centre of the stage.)
 

danyal999

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
46
Thanks for all the great answers guys! Will definitely implement these ideas to my game.
 
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