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How to fight Ryu thread

TheTwistedHero

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Okay, so it's coming to my attention that people are saying that Ryu is broken. He has a ton of potential, but a smart player can make quick work of him. Here are some pointers to frame your mind into the Ryu matchup:
  • Ryu is a Street Fighter character (No duh), and has gameplay based on the Street Figher formula. This means his match is focused on punishing. He has the potential to capitallize on many different moves that leave people open. However, a good portion of his moves also leave him vulnerable as well (see shoryu or his strong tilts). So your game plan is to wait for him to throw something out, and capitalize on his mistakes. Street figher is a game of spacing, so bring that mindset to smash and youre in business
  • The focus is punishable. Very easily i may add. In SF4, there are 4 ways to stop a focus. One, dont get hit (Self explanitory, just back up or jump). Two, use an armor breaking move (These dont really exist in smash to my knowledge, so thats out, unless someone finds something that works in the future). The other 2 carry over to smash. Three, multiple hits. Just hit more than once and focus is stopped, and you have an opening. Some characters who do this well are: Lucas and Ness (both PK fire), and Fox (Dair). 4, and by far the easiest, grab. Just grab the man, it stops the focus outright, and its likely going to work when he's stuck in focus (unless he FADCs, in which case he lost the hit, so keep on your guard for that)
I do not claim to be an expert on ryu slaughter, so keep the thread active for the advanced play counters to the World Warrior. I intend for this to help newer players on For Glory. Keep it active, and wreck his life.
 
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PapaJ

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The thing is about Ryu is that he can rack up damage. Most of his attacks deal double digits and can be comboed. However he only has 3-4 Kill moves. This is side Smash, Bair (near ledge), Dair (if it spikes), Shoryuken. If a Ryu fails to land these moves the opponent can last as long as 150%, based on my matches thus far.

This means that a good player can watch for a Ryu fishing for these moves and kill him around 100+. His Tatsu recovery can be stuffed and the Shoryuken only has Iframes if done right. However shoryuken itself has little to no horizontal distance.

Ryu also does not have any attacks that protect his back. This means a good read or jump in could hurt or kill Ryu.

Ryu has alot of damage racking attacks but that means nothing if he can't land the KO moves, or wait until his opponent is at 150+ damage.
 

axelalexzander

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I'm a Dedede main and I've had tons of success zoning out all the Ryu's I've ran into online. I know it's early and nobody is that good with him yet, but I think that's Ryu's biggest weakness. I've had much more trouble with non-zoning characters. Ryu's speed is only average and he's a bit floaty in the air so he can't rush you down near as well as characters like Shiek, Cpt. Falcon, Sonic and Diddy. And he has no disjointed hitboxes and his attacks have limited range aside from his projectile but it's start up is slow and he can't really spam it hard. I could be wrong but I think Ryu is going to have lots of problems against characters like Megaman, Shulk, Villager, Dedede, Duck Hunt and ROB.

So right now my strategy is to play passively and campy against Ryu.
 
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PapaJ

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I'm a Dedede main and I've had tons of success zoning out all the Ryu's I've ran into online. I know it's early and nobody is that good with him yet, but I think that's Ryu's biggest weakness. I've had much more trouble with non-zoning characters. Ryu's speed is only average and he's a bit floaty in the air so he can't rush you down near as well as characters like Shiek, Cpt. Falcon, Sonic and Diddy. And he has no disjointed hitboxes and his attacks have limited range aside from his projectile but it's start up is slow and he can't really spam it hard. I could be wrong but I think Ryu is going to have lots of problems against characters like Megaman, Shulk, Villager, Dedede, Duck Hunt and ROB.

So right now my strategy is to play passively and campy against Ryu.
This is sort of what I was detailing with Ryu's poor mobility options. His low air speed and medicore/medium walk and run speeds means when he has to approach you he needs to be methodical, much like how he plays in SF. This is coupled with most of his moves having no KO power or bring Risky to use, such as Shoryuken and a shielded Fsmash. So once you are in KO percents if you play safe you make it that much harder for Ryu to KO you.
 
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AdaptiveTrigger

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I feel like Ryu has difficulty dealing with rolling since his down smash only hits in front of him, both of his forward tilts are slow, his forward smash has a dead zone, and his focus attack is just risky. Obviously, this doesn't mean people should predictably spam rolling, but it is definitely something worth keeping in mind.

Also, I think Ryu doesn't have a strong ground poking game (ironically, since he is typically a footsies based character in the SF series). He can get out poked quite easily as a result.

I'm wondering how good Ryu will really be once the hype dies down a little bit...He has great strengths, but he has weaknesses too. Then again, maybe my noobish opinion about some of Ryu's "flaws" are just flat out wrong and I'm just missing something with this character.
 

Skitrel

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I feel like Ryu has difficulty dealing with rolling since his down smash only hits in front of him, both of his forward tilts are slow, his forward smash has a dead zone, and his focus attack is just risky. Obviously, this doesn't mean people should predictably spam rolling, but it is definitely something worth keeping in mind.

Also, I think Ryu doesn't have a strong ground poking game (ironically, since he is typically a footsies based character in the SF series). He can get out poked quite easily as a result.

I'm wondering how good Ryu will really be once the hype dies down a little bit...He has great strengths, but he has weaknesses too. Then again, maybe my noobish opinion about some of Ryu's "flaws" are just flat out wrong and I'm just missing something with this character.
You're not wrong.

Ryu lacks approach options.

His options are:

Nair to start a combo. This is not safe on shield, it is shut down completely by simply shield grabbing him, a jumping Ryu telegraphs his intent very clearly.

Grab. But Ryu's grab range is terrible.

Used ranged moves to force opponent to approach.

---

Ryu's game is going to be advanced by Ryu players learning counter moves, frame traps and pushing the limits of perfect shields. Perfect shield in Smash4 hasn't been explored much, Ryu relies on it to start combos.

You have got one thing wrong here: Ryu's footsies game isn't bad in Smash. The mistake you're making is treating footsies in Smash as the same as footsies in SF. Footsies isn't just tapping backwards and forwards throwing out moves until one connects. It's throwing out the move that directly counters the move you pre-emptively expected your opponent to throw out.

Ryu's heavy utilt and usmash are fantastic footsy counters to aerial approaches, they're low commitment because they're quick, so they're low risk. His dtilt beats anything that opponents throw out that would hit him mid-high on his hurtbox because he ducks and his hurtbox moves backwards as a result. His hard neutral A is a counter to anything that hits mid-low because he has no low hurtbox during the animation. The list goes on. The quantity of moves he has are all about choosing the correct move to counter the anticipated moves your opponent is making. That's how footsies works, and it works the same in Smash with a few more movement based differences in particular because of the aerial game. Stationary Fair should also be part of your defensive game as Ryu as should all manner of retreating aerials.

Give it time, Ryu's footsies is going to be a core part of playing the character, move choice is going to be something you need to understand heavily. Matchup knowledge is going to be an incredibly important aspect of playing Ryu because (just like in SF) you're going to need to know the details of absolutely all of your opponent's options in order to choose the correct countering option against them.

As for the meta right now, the meta vs Ryu = Force him to approach. Shield grab him when he stupidly tries to start his obvious combos with nair. Kick the hell out of him. Repeat. Watch him get more aggressive and easier as he gets angrier.

We pretty much need a matchup thread for every single character in the game in my opinion. Then we can really get the ball rolling on which moves Ryu mains should be throwing out the most frequently against which opponents.
 

Riuvee

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Mac's KO Punch breaks focus. Found that one out the hard way.
Ouch. ._.;

Currently seeing if counters can ruin Focus. Ryu wins upon a full charge, but can be countered on earlier stages. Lucario won't strike if hit on a full charge. He's invincible against it with Double Team, and is likely able to punish if he uses the move early enough to slip through and cool off just as soon as Ryu does. For the most part, don't go in for a counter as anyone else, it's most often suicide if that Ryu can show you his moves.
 

TheTwistedHero

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Ouch. ._.;

Currently seeing if counters can ruin Focus. Ryu wins upon a full charge, but can be countered on earlier stages. Lucario won't strike if hit on a full charge. He's invincible against it with Double Team, and is likely able to punish if he uses the move early enough to slip through and cool off just as soon as Ryu does. For the most part, don't go in for a counter as anyone else, it's most often suicide if that Ryu can show you his moves.
I'd suggest sticking to grabs personally, but I think investigating offensive options can help.
 

Skitrel

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No, it's not - it's decent. And his Dash Grab is good.
Just because it works more frequently than Mac doesn't make it decent or good. Dash grab is defeated by the vast majority of jabs in the game, at least people have to use dtilt against Pikachu's poor grab range.

Here's a link to video of someone demonstrating grab range. It's very poor. https://youtu.be/C9e5JQzkg28?t=7m

Probably bottom 5 in the cast for grab range, he whiffs grabs constantly.
 

Skitrel

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Ryu's Grab Range is not crappy - I main Ganon.

Like if ppl always jab whenever you Dash Grab. That's not the case.
What you're proposing is a good option in For Glory and against scrubby casual players. This is a competitive discussion forum, we're not here to discuss running in and using an obviously unsafe dash grab as an approach option. We're here to discuss and push the mechanics and meta of Ryu at its highest level.

The grab is bad, it's not safe, it's not a good option. There really isn't a debate to be had here. Will it work? Yes. It will work sometimes, just like Bowsers FSmash will work on occasion, that doesn't mean it's a good move or an option you should consider valuable. It's bad.

By all means use the heck out of it on FG. But don't expect to see it as anything but a punish against landing lag or whiffs in tournament play. It won't be used as an approach.
 
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TheTwistedHero

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Ryu's Grab Range is not crappy - I main Ganon.

Like if ppl always jab whenever you Dash Grab. That's not the case.
If I may interject, I have a minor thing to watch out for. In SF, cross ups are scary, and a Nair or Fair crossup can leave you in blockstun long enough to grab you, so be on your guard for that. try to perfect shield or to spotdodge, and cover your back.
 

Z1GMA

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What you're proposing is a good option in For Glory and against scrubby casual players. This is a competitive discussion forum, we're not here to discuss running in and using an obviously unsafe dash grab as an approach option. We're here to discuss and push the mechanics and meta of Ryu at its highest level.

The grab is bad, it's not safe, it's not a good option. There really isn't a debate to be had here. Will it work? Yes. It will work sometimes, just like Bowsers FSmash will work on occasion, that doesn't mean it's a good move or an option you should consider valuable. It's bad.

By all means use the heck out of it on FG. But don't expect to see it as anything but a punish against landing lag or whiffs in tournament play. It won't be used as an approach.
Who said anything about using it as an approach 24/7?
And, these forums aren't meant for calling ppl FG Noobs - I rarely play FG.
Ppl Dash Grab more than you seem to think in competitive play, both as a punishing-tool, after enough hitstun, and as a mix-up, no matter what you think. After all, they're faster than human reactions.
You don't have to get all worked up over someone's opinion.
You're 28. please try to act accordingly.

edit*
If you were to never use grabs other than as a punishing-tool, your opponent can sit all day in his shield and laugh himself happy.
After all, there's a reason we've got the rockpaperscizzor-phrase "Grab Beats Shield".
Anticipate/read the shield/prey on a habit, and grab.
This is really basic stuff.
 
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Riuvee

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As of yet, I've never net a Ryu that has used the Collarbone Breaker (Strong F Tilt). Once played against a great player and caught him shielding a few times, but he always dropped the shield after the first hit. Compared to getting your shield busted, just take the punch if you can react fast enough. The move doesn't knock anyone very far, even at high %.
 

Nocx

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As of yet, I've never net a Ryu that has used the Collarbone Breaker (Strong F Tilt). Once played against a great player and caught him shielding a few times, but he always dropped the shield after the first hit. Compared to getting your shield busted, just take the punch if you can react fast enough. The move doesn't knock anyone very far, even at high %.
You can actually roll/spot dodge the second hit. Opponents don't even have to eat the second punch. It's not hard to do either. Honestly, I've given up on collarbone breaker because of this. Works well online though lol

Who said anything about using it as an approach 24/7?
And, these forums aren't meant for calling ppl FG Noobs - I rarely play FG.
Ppl Dash Grab more than you seem to think in competitive play, both as a punishing-tool, after enough hitstun, and as a mix-up, no matter what you think. After all, they're faster than human reactions.
You don't have to get all worked up over someone's opinion.
You're 28. please try to act accordingly.

edit*
If you were to never use grabs other than as a punishing-tool, your opponent can sit all day in his shield and laugh himself happy.
After all, there's a reason we've got the rockpaperscizzor-phrase "Grab Beats Shield".
Anticipate/read the shield/prey on a habit, and grab.
This is really basic stuff.
This is very true.

Also, Ryu can grab after a weak Dtilt, and there is only a 1-2 frame window in between the active hitbox frames. Whenever I see people shield a weak Dtilt, I just go for grab or dash grab(which puts the window between active hit frames to about 5-6) if they are out of range, . It hasn't failed me so far, but I'm sure once more people know about it, the dash grab will be read with a jab.
 
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slimjim

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After *...looks at watch...* 35 hours of offline competitive (Cincy locale) Roy v Ryu matches now, I think Roy will have the advantage barring some new technology. A properly spaced Nair stuffs most of Ryu's neutral tools when mixed up with pivot dtilts (a la NEO) and jab/grab shenanigans. At 0% it's not true, but Roy has dthrow to jab to regrab dthrow to uptilt VERY consistently [easier is dthrow to Up-B if you hate styling]. Also he stuffs Ryu's recovery options by means of ledge-hopped bairs/nairs and run-off charged Flame Blades and Counters for Hurricane Kick. Roy has little trouble dealing with Ryu's Jank because of up-B OoS and random counter lols.

TLDR: Pick Roy.

Non-roy specific: Non-committal characters like Luigi, Sheik, Pika, Mario, etc. have a pretty easy time with him as Ryu's defensive options are strong, but against superior mobility he gets pushed to the ledge and put at big disadvantage. For those who don't understand why, go to training mode and look at Ryu's forward roll. Goes almost nowhere. That (and nothing else because sheik and pika are perfectly balanced of course) makes it difficult to deal with fair/tilt zoning and i'll just leave out the part about needles/fireballs/thundershock.

Non-character specific:
1) Force Ryu to recover either way above you or way below the stage. Don't give him the Side-B to the ledge for free.
2) His Shoryuken is strong but his grab range and throws aren't the best. Shield often in kill percents, just don't become linear and predictable.
3) Projectiles. ALL THE TIME.
H4x$) If he's charging a FA in the air, use any multihit move. On the ground, wait patiently outside of range then punish on reaction anything he does that isn't a backwards dash cancel. If he BDC's the FA, walk forward and continue the match with your improved stage presence.
5) Be non-committal if you can while toying outside of his range. He's similar to Robin in that he's an absurdly good character standing still...but as soon as he commits he loses most of his options and decreases in scariness immediately.
 
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