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How to deal with a Fox main?

AnAngryPotato

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 18, 2015
Messages
7
Location
East Greenbush, New York
Whenever I play against Fox I get destroyed. I hear Falcon doesn't have a good matchup with Fox, but I need to know how to get past it. I considered using a secondary character with a better matchup against Fox, but as stupid as this probably sounds I really want to use Falcon.
 

SwiftOfDaSouth

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 29, 2014
Messages
238
Location
The South (Fairhope, Alabama)
Whenever I play against Fox I get destroyed. I hear Falcon doesn't have a good matchup with Fox, but I need to know how to get past it. I considered using a secondary character with a better matchup against Fox, but as stupid as this probably sounds I really want to use Falcon.
I'm the same way man, I totally understand where you're coming from. All I can tell you is that Falcon has to work harder than the Fox in this MU. Dirty tactics such as...*shiver*...tech chasing and consecutive stomps and Upairs must be used in order to win. I know, it's grimy, but that's just the way it's gotta be. If you let Fox corner you, push you off the edge, and shine you, you're dead as a doorknob. Don't let that happen. Spaced Nairs, Dash dance grabs into regrabs or knee, and offstage gimps will be your best friend. Also, capitalize and make reads like you're a ****ing English major. The more Falcon capitalizes on Fox's goofs, the more his odds go up in winning. Edgeguard like a fiend. He uses illusion? Knee. Bad Firefox angle? Knee. Missed waveland? Knee. Kill that sonofabitch, and don't un-tense your shoulder muscles until you've shaken hands at the end after you've won.
 
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Spak

Hero of Neverwinter
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Messages
4,033
Location
Earth
You've just gotta play a LOT of Fox mains. Luckily, I have a training partner that mains Fox, so I get a fair amount of experience on a regular basis. I've gotten shinespiked at 12% in a tournament set because of a flubbed edgeguard and let me tell you; it feels like garbage. Honestly, I have a easier time with the Fox matchup when I'm playing Roy, and that's saying something.
 

Coffeemug

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
232
Location
Kent, OH
Grind out the matchup, find a friend who mains fox and just play him for like a day straight. after every match or few matches take a break and try to identify what you're doing wrong or where you're missing openings and what you can do to swing those around. I have friends who specifically look for one option to punish and build their game off that. Like look for bad pressure and when you can shield grab. once you identify that, look for times you can stomp out of shield, or nair and so on. just take it slow and analyze it.

If you're getting absolutely rocked and can't see what you're doing wrong you may be playing with someone who's too good for you. try to find someone around your level so the openings are more obvious. When I first started I learned against someone on our PR and would never understand why I got rocked. I was able to see what was going wrong more when I played someone else.

But generally dash dance to bait stuff out and grab them then tech chase to oblivion. then go for your guaranteed kills. Darkrain combos and stomp knee are your best friend at lower levels, make sure you're not dropping those.
 

Muse_Showbiz

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 14, 2013
Messages
24
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P72GQqvjIU
learn how to tech chase like a real man

falcon has so much unused option coverage on fox its incredible
afaik gravy is making a full video on option coverage and reaction stuff
did you ever try that tech chase technique against someone? i can tell you it´s freaking hard. after using d throw or u throw you dash wavedash; okay sounds easy. but then.. there are a buuuunch of things you have to react to - and reacting in general is not that difficult but within 18 frames, which are 0.3 seconds, you have to take the right DECISION. i can´t tell you how hard it is to react to so many various things. after the throw your opponent can: miss tech, where you have to jab reset or crouch on top of him and react again to the next move of your opponent. but he can also tech in various directions: spott tech -> frame perfect regrab o.O (because of shine) ; tech behind you -> regrab or almost frame perfect shffl (reacting to techs with aerials in generall is f***ing difficult); reacting to a tech away from you is more difficult, because several options are killed by teching away.
and doing mechanically tech chases by using an aerial for miss techs or spott techs and THEEEN reacting to techs is also daaamn hard to master ... moreover falcons grab range is so small that it´s already difficult enough to get a grab at all!

i´ve also seen gravy and wizzy having a hard time to get tech chases like that successfully.


to my mind, the safest technique to tech chase is using up throw, dash wavedash to your opponent and then react to the tech, since your opponent will tech most likely because of the up throw, which gives him enough time to react. if he however still missed tech, you can jab reset. after jab reset you can always go for a knee or a stomp (so you assume that he stands up in place).
another good option is to use d throw after you dash dance grabed your opponent, who just approached with an nair or dair. you then can assume that he will miss tech, since the already pressed L or R inorder to l-cancel (so he can´t tech for 0.5 seconds after that). after the d throw, go for a knee.

sure, this is not the BEST way to tech chase, but imo it´s relatively safe and works relatively well.
 

FrenkM0J0

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
164
Location
Delft, The Netherlands
What I do in this MU is to get fox to about 60% or higher with techchases and dairs, and then get him in the air with either yet another dair, upsmash, scoop-uair or side-b. Then i chain a few uairs to a knee or whatever move to kill offstage. Does that help?
 

Muse_Showbiz

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 14, 2013
Messages
24
What I do in this MU is to get fox to about 60% or higher with techchases and dairs, and then get him in the air with either yet another dair, upsmash, scoop-uair or side-b. Then i chain a few uairs to a knee or whatever move to kill offstage. Does that help?
hmm. your tactic to get him above 60% is good, but your killing part seems risky. it´s not very good to use raptor boost in neutral game. moreover, it´s hard to chain uairs against fast fallers like fox. and hitting with an usmash is also difficult.
i would instantly go for a knee when i see a possibility.

i would say in neutral game one should use retrating nairs/bairs or uairs (to catch their approach) or dash dance grab. after hitting those and your opponent is above a certain %, go for a knee.
especially after hitting with retreating nair, when fox just apporached with an aerial, you can assume that he will miss tech and knee him.
unfortunately, fox has a gun... so he can force you to approach him.. which suuuuuux so hard, because falcons approach isn´t very good, compared to fox/falco. it´s very important to approach safely and intelligent.

but i also think, that there is no real formula to kill a fox. because it´s very luck dependent. if your opponent does mistakes sometimes, you can hope to win. but if your opponents neutral is on point, you will have a hard time - even hax said, that if both do no mistakes, then the better MU will win. and against a good fox, it´s preeeetty difficult, because their neutral game easily beats yours, if they know what to do (u tilts and well placed nair/bairs).

to my mind, it´s important as a falcon player to keep in mind why we picked him up as main (because he is the coolest and manliest char and playing with him is most fun). unfortunately, his MU sux against top 3, but we have to get over it and try to do the best we can. of course, there will be loses because of dumb MUs, but that´s how it is.
 

FrenkM0J0

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
164
Location
Delft, The Netherlands
hmm. your tactic to get him above 60% is good, but your killing part seems risky. it´s not very good to use raptor boost in neutral game. moreover, it´s hard to chain uairs against fast fallers like fox. and hitting with an usmash is also difficult.
i would instantly go for a knee when i see a possibility.
I can only agree with most of that, although I don't really agree with the first part: I meant using raptor boost and those other moves not really in neutral game (then a side b would indeed be stupid unless you read it or something) but as a reset, just like you could jab or knee. The uairs in my opinion (but of course I could be wrong) are excellent because I think that you can't really DI out, right? It's like that saying: falcon wobbles you in the air into a knee...
But the knee could be practically everything against fox (I've seen S2J use nair offstage so that's why I think that)
Again, correct me if I'm wrong
 

Muse_Showbiz

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 14, 2013
Messages
24
actually fast fallers have the easiest time to DI out of uair chains, because they land so fast. if fox DIs out, one usually can´t get another uair before he hits the ground. but ye, uairs are always very good in neutral game, especially if you catched his approach with it.
furthermore, when he hits the ground, but did miss thech, then you can like shovel him from the ground with another uair to knee. this works pretty often.
 

FrenkM0J0

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
164
Location
Delft, The Netherlands
actually fast fallers have the easiest time to DI out of uair chains, because they land so fast. if fox DIs out, one usually can´t get another uair before he hits the ground. but ye, uairs are always very good in neutral game, especially if you catched his approach with it.
furthermore, when he hits the ground, but did miss thech, then you can like shovel him from the ground with another uair to knee. this works pretty often.
That's true. I'd like to add one more thing though: falcon's speed allows for very quick followups: once fox DI's out you can most of the time follow up with a knee I think, or at the very least do some damage.
 

Muse_Showbiz

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 14, 2013
Messages
24
That's true. I'd like to add one more thing though: falcon's speed allows for very quick followups: once fox DI's out you can most of the time follow up with a knee I think, or at the very least do some damage.
that´s right; thanks for your addition. in many cases one can follow up. especially when going offstage and you know you can hit with at least a weak knee. catching the double jump of a space animal can be game breaking! if you successfully manage to gimp your opponent at low % (works very good against falco), it feels preeeetty good :3
back then, when hax used to main his falcon, he showed how to gimp fox/falco by catching side Bs or double jumps (eventhough it´s quite risky).
 

ShiftingShadows28

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
335
Location
Edinburgh, Scotland
I sometimes struggle with rushdown foxes. My remedies are to pivot nair their approach (hard) or what has worked for me more recently is stuffing the nair with bair. I go for this in 2 ways: i)if he is hot on my tail I will instant bair ii) with a little more space to work with I will short hop late bair to make myself safer. These bairs can lead to a grab at times when the bair is hitting them out of the air.
 

phrigid

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 6, 2014
Messages
8
My opinion on spacies matchup is dont play like falcon, play like sheik trapped in falcon's body. Tech chase the hell out of them and make them feel scared offstage. Even opt to play really passive or just not approach sometimes. Might not be the flashiest thing in the world, but falcons gotta play grimy sometimes to beat all these top tiers.
 

phrigid

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 6, 2014
Messages
8
Falcon doesn't have the autocombo's sheik has, but other than that I agree with you. Techchasing is Falcon's main weapon in this MU.
obviously not exactley like a sheik. I know a lot of newer falcons tend to want to do the super cool looking super offense combos, I was just tryin to get the point across that its really important to know how to play good defense and go for the less flashier stuff too, especially in the spacies matchup
 
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