How to Beat Mario?

[JesusTheSecondComing]

Hey Mario lovers. I have friend that mains Mario that combos like there's no tomorrow and I'd love some counter tips. I main as Lucario so any tips would help. Also I know he frequents these forums so he will see this. You know who you are. You suck. (I'm kidding guys he's an okay dude).

 

[SPoitter]

Project M or SSBB?
SSBB: My best suggest would be to counter most of his attacks with down-B then edge-guard as best as you can, Mario has nothing in Brawl to help his recovery except for his Side Special, which sucks.

PM: In PM you don't wanna edge guard but instead power-shield/dodge most of his attacks. Also you don't wanna use any of Lucario's projectiles because his cape has good priority in PM. You also wanna make sure he doesn't use any of his launchers (Utilt/USmash) don't get hit by those, he'll most likely Uair Uair Fair.

 

[jtm94]

I wanna bump this up to know what is thought of to be goo Mario counter-play.

I swear Mario's attacks seems SO SAFE on shield. My buddy will land haymaker on shield and I will jump out of shield as fast as possible and he will hit me with a downsmash on my way up. It's weird that it has such little endlag, I eat so many fsmash and down smashes trying to jump out of shield after shielding anything of Mario's.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I wanna bump this up to know what is thought of to be goo Mario counter-play.

I swear Mario's attacks seems SO SAFE on shield. My buddy will land haymaker on shield and I will jump out of shield as fast as possible and he will hit me with a downsmash on my way up. It's weird that it has such little endlag, I eat so many fsmash and down smashes trying to jump out of shield after shielding anything of Mario's.

You wanna defeat mario my friend? Try Marth for the best results. You can also try m2 and I hear Roy is bad for us as well. Spacies are good to, but it's harder for some of them. None of them can CG by mario, except spacies, but they all have reliable ways to deal with fireballs, edgeguard, approach and kill. Marth being a little harder to kill with in general, if you don't have the spacing or are playing a good player.

Oh, just WD OoS away from mario if that is the case or roll or even stay in shield if you can. Dsmash can't really be followed up, so if you shield it, you'll be back in neutral.

 

[AthleticNerd93]

What are top 5 characters that are good to use against Mario or what kind of characters. My Link gets jammed by pills? Please help.

 

[jtm94]

Marth, Captain Falcon can maneuver around fireballs, Roy and Ike may be almost as effective as Marth.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

You wanna defeat mario my friend? Try Marth for the best results. You can also try m2 and I hear Roy is bad for us as well. Spacies are good to, but it's harder for some of them. None of them can CG by mario, except spacies, but they all have reliable ways to deal with fireballs, edgeguard, approach and kill. Marth being a little harder to kill with in general, if you don't have the spacing or are playing a good player.

Oh, just WD OoS away from mario if that is the case or roll or even stay in shield if you can. Dsmash can't really be followed up, so if you shield it, you'll be back in neutral.

Marth isn't a straight counter to Mario, the MU is a bit like Marth vs Peach (also strategywise) in Melee, a bit in favour for Marth but not that much.
Mewtwo, Fox and Sheik have better matchups vs Mario imo.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Marth isn't a straight counter to Mario, the MU is a bit like Marth vs Peach (also strategywise) in Melee, a bit in favour for Marth but not that much.
Mewtwo, Fox and Sheik have better matchups vs Mario imo.

No
Marth destroys mario, I'm sorry.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

This kind of post doesn't help the debate.
Marth has problems when Mario gets in, multiple up-airs are a problem and we all know Marth has no combo breaker so even if you can't extend your combo while keeping Marth in hittstun it will still work. Marth has huge problems getting the kill (many f-smash and dair setups don't work although some do, but if the Mario knows the matchup he can avoid them most of the time).
If you have problems against Marth in neutral game, you probably need to do more WDs backwards because Marth always has a hitbox out for a few frames (normally just 2-3) then followed by more frames without hitbox. Fakeouts work.
Mario also has the better crouchcancelling game, you just have to avoid getting grabbed.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

This kind of post doesn't help the debate.
Marth has problems when Mario gets in, multiple up-airs are a problem and we all know Marth has no combo breaker so even if you can't extend your combo while keeping Marth in hittstun it will still work. Marth has huge problems getting the kill (many f-smash and dair setups don't work although some do, but if the Mario knows the matchup he can avoid them most of the time).
If you have problems against Marth in neutral game, you probably need to do more WDs backwards because Marth always has a hitbox out for a few frames (normally just 2-3) then followed by more frames without hitbox. Fakeouts work.
Mario also has the better crouchcancelling game, you just have to avoid getting grabbed.

Tbh
I made a huge post on this
Check the mario match up thread and tell me what you think about it.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Tbh
I made a huge post on this
Check the mario match up thread and tell me what you think about it.

It is a good post with some little inaccuracies. I agree with most points, but you seem to underestimate that Marios neutral game is buffed by the fact that if the players move contrary because they both expected an attack Mario has the fireball again, and now you can stand at ~1.5 tipper f-smash lengths waiting for him to deal with it and then punish.
About projectile pressure, I normally think of it as two lines, one that signals that if you are closer you can't projectile without getting punished and the other one signalising the other player that if he is closer he can't choose easy evading options without getting punished.
Normally, the zone between these lines is a room for the approacher to utilize his entire neutral game toolset if it is the safe zone for him, and if the zone gives the projectile-player the advantage that causes the approacher to have serious problems surpassing that zone.
While normally Marth's ability to clank unpunished lasts longer than Mario's ability to fireball unpunished, while Marth is dashing back this is not the case. And in neutral game you often dashdance so that is a chance for Mario to capitalize.
One method to bait the dash back out is a low-distance WD back and then dash in (first to avoid the expected grab, and now you threaten a grab / run-cancel d-smash yourself. Marth probably doesn't want to commit to an attack so he will retreat, to which you will respond with a sh (hold back during jumpsquat frames) fireball. There are many more options to bait this out (many crouch setups to threaten CC while you need him to be unsure if his grab will miss because of your WD backs) if you dig deep into the meta.

Also, about your pressure, you also underestimate that whenever you force Marth into his shield you are probably able to weaken his stage position because of the WD back, even if you are not able to get the hit. If you then take space (little dash, WD with low distance forward) and continue neutral game, the chance of winning it will increase (less dash back abililties limit Marths options), the risk-reward ration turns even more in your favour because if you get hit there, your chances to recover are significantly worse.

Mario's huge combo ability on Marth doesn't get enough credit, and so does the fact you have to work for your kills less (d-throw/d-tilt ->fair, edgeguards).

Overall, your post is pretty good and I might be a bit nitpicky, the MU is still slightly advantegous for Marth but not a matchup to switch characters for, which is my main point.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Mario can do ZERO against a competent Marth. Marth has NO reason to ever approach you, and he has no reason to ever shield. and literally all his moves just go right though fireballs. To beat Marth you have to just be a better player. Mario has no advantages in the match up except "if the Marth is bad then you can get in and combo him". If you ever crouch cancel-dsmash or crouch cancel anything on a marth, that dude does not know how to play Marth lol.

So basically to beat Mario you need to pick a character with a superior Neutral game and you need to pick someone that can deal with fireballs. Fireballs are the main thing that makes Mario good. Characters like Marth, Charizard, MewTwo and Bowser are examples of characters who can pretty much blast through fireballs with their high priority hitboxes. Fast characters like Fox, Falcon, Sheik, Sonic and ZSS can manuever around fireballs effectively as well. Also stage selection is very important as well. Mario does not excel at chasing people around the map. He wants to get in your face and combo you to death. So really large stages like FD and Dreamland are often bad for him in certain matchups. Spotdoging and rolling are effective against Mario and counter most of his moves. Just don't get predictable or you're going to pay dearly.

 

[cod3kill]

You wanna defeat mario my friend? Try Marth for the best results. You can also try m2 and I hear Roy is bad for us as well. Spacies are good to, but it's harder for some of them. None of them can CG by mario, except spacies, but they all have reliable ways to deal with fireballs, edgeguard, approach and kill. Marth being a little harder to kill with in general, if you don't have the spacing or are playing a good player.

Oh, just WD OoS away from mario if that is the case or roll or even stay in shield if you can. Dsmash can't really be followed up, so if you shield it, you'll be back in neutral.

Mario actually does pretty well against Roy from what I've heard. I live near the DFW area and I've talked to Sethlon about it and Lunchables (Who also has a really good Roy) and they both said Mario has the advantage. Roy can't really deal with the fire balls quite as well as Marth can and CC down smash can mess him up. Roy is also at a good weight for chain grabs and combos, while Mario's weight generally isn't too good for combos. It's much easier than dealing with a really good Marth.

 

[proxibomb]

Throwing Mario off stage works very well. If you can ledge guard, the Mario should die. I warn you though, Mario works well on flat-sided stages like WarioWare and Green Hill Zone (as of 3.02). This is because Mario can wall jump and easily up-b into a player who is ledge guarding.

 

[leekslap]

Marth isn't a straight counter to Mario, the MU is a bit like Marth vs Peach (also strategywise) in Melee, a bit in favour for Marth but not that much.
Mewtwo, Fox and Sheik have better matchups vs Mario imo.

I can sorta see Sheik but Fox?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Mario's mobility is so bad in comparison to Fox. If Fox manages to figure out how to fight the fireballs (the distance where Fox can shield them safely is bigger than the distance where Mario can throw out fireballs easy) it is not that hard. You also need to have a strong neutral game obviously.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I can sorta see Sheik but Fox?

Nair/bair> fireball
His speed
Good gimp power against mario
EZ kill setups
Shine so he never gets cc dsmashed

 

[_Ganondorf_]

This might be a match up problem since I use Ganondorf. But I simply cannot counter anything Mario does. I get comboed like a punching bag, pills/fireballs shut me down, I can't grab him out of shield (especially after dash attack) and down smash and Fsmash are so safe on Ganon's shield it's a little ridicules. Also (I tested this) why is Fsmash so strong? Especially for its speed... From the middle of Battle Field Ganon gets KO'ed at 85%. Seems a little too strong if you ask me.

Anyway if I use Link or Ike I do just fine so I guess it's because Ganon is just horrible lol (can't wait for some buffs in 3.5). But any advice if I want to win with Ganon? or is this match up almost un-winnable at this current version?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

This might be a match up problem since I use Ganondorf. But I simply cannot counter anything Mario does. I get comboed like a punching bag, pills/fireballs shut me down, I can't grab him out of shield (especially after dash attack) and down smash and Fsmash are so safe on Ganon's shield it's a little ridicules. Also (I tested this) why is Fsmash so strong? Especially for its speed... From the middle of Battle Field Ganon gets KO'ed at 85%. Seems a little too strong if you ask me.

Anyway if I use Link or Ike I do just fine so I guess it's because Ganon is just horrible lol (can't wait for some buffs in 3.5). But any advice if I want to win with Ganon? or is this match up almost un-winnable at this current version?

Watch the 1hr match between Eli and Gallo. If you play link/ike on the side I would not, even worry about a MU, one of your characterts isn't good at.
Get better Di?

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Watch the 1hr match between Eli and Gallo. If you play link/ike on the side I would not, even worry about a MU, one of your characterts isn't good at.
Get better Di?

I DI like there is no tomorrow, it's only with Ganon though that I get trapped by Mario. Even if I DI correctly for the most part Ganon still gets comboed hard and if I do get away or even wave dash oos. Mario is just too fast and catches up to me before I can even throw out a move in time.

With Link or Ike I DI away no problem. But like I said it's probably just Ganon being a bad match up.
well technically he has no good matchups but I guess this one in perticular lol.

Still though why is Mario's Fsmash so strong? Seems way to strong for its speed and virtually no start/end lag lol. Am I the only one that thinks it's a little OP?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I mean, his dsmash is 5 frames
Fsmash is 8
Dsmash is hella strunk

 

[_Ganondorf_]

I mean, his dsmash is 5 frames
Fsmash is 8
Dsmash is hella strunk

Lol yeah that too...

 

[Broasty]

This might be a match up problem since I use Ganondorf. But I simply cannot counter anything Mario does. I get comboed like a punching bag, pills/fireballs shut me down, I can't grab him out of shield (especially after dash attack) and down smash and Fsmash are so safe on Ganon's shield it's a little ridicules. Also (I tested this) why is Fsmash so strong? Especially for its speed... From the middle of Battle Field Ganon gets KO'ed at 85%. Seems a little too strong if you ask me.

Anyway if I use Link or Ike I do just fine so I guess it's because Ganon is just horrible lol (can't wait for some buffs in 3.5). But any advice if I want to win with Ganon? or is this match up almost un-winnable at this current version?

Wizard Kick turns out to be a super armor approach if you space and time it correct. Like, right after your leg is completely extended, you'll go through anything except grabs. To mix things up though, your other approach tool is SH->Fair using various jumps (backflips and forward jumps) to space yourself correctly. The punch. It goes through projectiles...it goes through faces. Once you land that hit, it's a matter of continuing to apply pressure.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Just watch the video mentioned. Then work on reading people, that's how Ganon wins games. Cruzycakes lost to vex. Watch that as well.

 

[AcornGames]

The priority shouldn't be about Matchups.
The only way to beat him is to get better and outplay him.
If your friend goes for the same strats, think about what do when he tries it.
Does he open his combo with the same move 80% of the time? Punish it.

If you know Marios going to chase you maybe some retreating Nairs or Fairs.
I'm not 100% on this but if you get the read right Ganons Aerial Side-B should turn his chase into a terrible mistake xD

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

The priority shouldn't be about Matchups.
The only way to beat him is to get better and outplay him.
If your friend goes for the same strats, think about what do when he tries it.
Does he open his combo with the same move 80% of the time? Punish it.

If you know Marios going to chase you maybe some retreating Nairs or Fairs.
I'm not 100% on this but if you get the read right Ganons Aerial Side-B should turn his chase into a terrible mistake xD

????
This game is all about match ups. Wat U r even saying right here

 

[Azureflames]

i think you're focusing on the first sentence too much. Pretty sure he's just referring to the fact that at lower/mid level smash, generally its better to practice hard at one character or a couple rather than just focusing on straight MU's and switching characters all over the place. Sometimes i do tend to switch to my secondaries (marth/link/Falco) against difficult MUs like DK/bowser/Zard/DDD/diddy/link/peach/rob depending how I'm feeling but it's probably better to just play out the bad MU's to better round out my main than focusing soley on learning different MUs with secondaries

 

[AcornGames]

^ Mostly this, but maybe I shouldn't have used the word "only" lol.
Yeah, a different character will give you different advantages/disadvantages but from what I understand Ganondorf doesn't have many good Matchups. He's considered Mid-low tier.
With that in mind if you're going to main him the focus should just be playing better, not swapping out for an easier MU.

That's my opinion anyways, but I haven't been playing long. Only a month or so.