How to beat a Falco ledge-tech after D-smash?

[M-Tude]

So I was watching a recent M2 vid, and twice in the last game on FD, the Falco teched M2's D-smash at the ledge into a firebird, and neither time was the M2 able to continue the edge-guard situation.

バトゲー/BattleGateWay #6 B Class Finals Zoma vs Mogura (name of the vid, can't post links yet)

I was wondering if we had an answer for this to turn it into a stock.

Personally, I was thinking that walking forward to the edge of the stage and F-tilting (straight or angle down) could cover both going straight and down toward the ledge. And if they angle above M2 he has time to turnaround and B-throw them back off.

Does that seem feasible?

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[M-Tude]

But you would probably have time to react to whether or not you heard the illusion sound or saw the firebird startup. And if it was the firebird, I think you would have time to walk forward F-tilt, and if it was the illusion, instant F-tilt might indeed be the best answer. Do you think though that if they delayed the phantasm to SS the ledge you might have time to walk forward and down angled F-tilt? For that matter does down angled F-tilt beat a SS recovery? Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not a huge frame data guy, but I feel like reacting to auditory cues of the phantasm is a plausible way to help figure out what options to cover.

You're right, taking the ledge might solve this issue, but knowing options for covering a ledge tech would be helpful against any character.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[SuperShus]

Can you space the dsmash so that they can't tech, or just choose a different move? I think choosing a high risk/reward move against a spacie is probably your first mistake.

In fact, we should probably be trying to get a real flowchart for mewtwo edge gaurds going. He has a spectacular recovery distance which means he could go very deep for kills.

Or do you think I'm completely off base?

 

[M-Tude]

I don't think you can space it like that, at least not with the spacie riding up the wall like in the vid I posted. I don't think D-smash is very high risk in this situation either. A spacie below the stage pretty much has the option to ride the wall or go straight up, both of which are easily reacted to from a charging D-smash. It's just not guaranteed kill unfortunately.

The thing is I'm not sure what other safe/consistent options are open for M2 edge guarding from the stage in this situation. D-tilt doesn't have the same large hitbox beneath the stage, and I'm not sure down angled F-tilt does either.

What do you think of SUNC to the ledge and invincible falling Nair or Bair to hit the Spacie out of their Firefox/bird? Do you think they would be able to SDI ledgetech one of those or would they be sent more down and away from the stage?

I think a flowchart would be cool, but I think it'd be difficult and be relying on a lot of the same options really. Not sure you can cover absolutely everything with M2

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[ihasabuket]

DJC(double jump cancel) dair hits below ledge, so does the start of DJC bair.

 

[ihasabuket]

If a fox or falco are recovering with illusion and they go above the ledge go for ftilt them and hold tilt in the other direction to turn around in place. If they were at low percent and end up close while under the ledge wavedash back off stage and use dair or bair (preferably dair). If they were at high percent and they end up too far to hit them with an aerial prepare to edgeguard on stage. if theyre below and far away just grab ledge, if theyre above, expect the side b and react to up b. Also, you have to always keep track of their double jump when edgegaurding. Let me know if dtilt or ftilt after down smash works for you.

 

[ihasabuket]

SH(short hop) bair can cover all of the side platforms in platform stages and most of the side platforms on dreamland you just have to position yourself under and in front of it. You also have enough aerial mobility that you can cover the ledge with a fading SH bair and grab the ledge right after.

 

[M-Tude]

That was really cool info about the Bair hitting below the stage, and also covering the side platforms. The latter is really good to know for tech chases; can you cover all options on BF with a SH Bair? would be sweet at higher percents.

As far as the flow-chart goes, I'm not sure that's exactly what we're looking for. I think it would need to be quite a bit more detailed for it to be really useful, but its good start.

 

[ihasabuket]

Really depends on the match up and situation like if they recover really high. Although if they recover high and youre at the ledge you can probably get a fair punish by double jumping or teleporting to the top platform. Come to think of it you can SH bair to cover the ledge and then double jump before you land. Keep in mind you need to DJC bair to hit below the ledge which means the SH bair will only cover above the ledge and the platform. ill get started on a flowchart but i think it should be a new thread.

 

[MookieRah]

Take this with a grain of salt, as I've always had trouble with edgeguarding:

I have never had much success with bair edgeguarding with M2, and I was experimenting with it since 2004. The thing is, it does hit under the stage, but I don't know if you can land a sweet-spot bair (on stage), and the sour-spot bair is quite weak in terms of power. In general, I have managed to land bair edge guards in matches, but usually they come back without much problem due to the sour-spot hit. That said, I never properly tested this or worked on this, because it's honestly really hard to practice edgeguarding without having another player willing to help you, or to simply play a **** load of matches with.

I don't expect this to be practical though, even with solid testing. It's difficult enough to time it and space it, and it would be even harder to time it so that the hitbox would land in such a way to prevent an SDI walltech in the first place. I would be very surprised if bair turned out to be the best option.

I think M2's best option, more than likely, would be to do something off stage or to simply edgehog. If you guys can find a very easy, reliable way to catch illusions onto the stage, then I think you can cover for an illusion to the ledge on reaction with a teleport edgehog by simply being patient and proper positioning near the ledge.

 

[ihasabuket]

Youre completely right actually, i was simply answering that bair does actually hit under the stage. Ive been trying to work on a flow chart lately but have been a bit busy, ill try to finish it this month. One of the options i considered when theyre recovering low is running off stage past the ledge a little bit so that you hit with the tip of your bair. At really low percents it might not even cause them to tumble which means they will just drop and wont be able to tech. If theyre high enough they can still miss their tech. If they tech you can follow up with either another bair, Dair, or falling side b if theyre low enough and youre on FD or BF. Its best to just go offstage with mewtwo since its relatively safe due to your low falling speed, high aerial maneuverability, and good recovery. If you do have to edgeguard on stage because you were too far, downsmash when theyre recovering low and follow up with either ftilt, Dtilt->Fair, or fully charged shadow ball depending on the situation. ill make the flow chart soon and it will be really specific. If you guys have any suggestions feel free to post.

 

[ihasabuket]

So I was watching a recent M2 vid, and twice in the last game on FD, the Falco teched M2's D-smash at the ledge into a firebird, and neither time was the M2 able to continue the edge-guard situation.

バトゲー/BattleGateWay #6 B Class Finals Zoma vs Mogura (name of the vid, can't post links yet)

I was wondering if we had an answer for this to turn it into a stock.

Personally, I was thinking that walking forward to the edge of the stage and F-tilting (straight or angle down) could cover both going straight and down toward the ledge. And if they angle above M2 he has time to turnaround and B-throw them back off.

Does that seem feasible?

I never actually replied to your original question so thought id do it. I watched the match again and did some research, Downsmash IASA frames are at 38 and it hits 20-21(so 17-18 frames of end lag technically) you can see how quickly you can act out of it at 15:43 of this match. Falco has to wait 5 frames after a wall tech to wall jump and firebird startup is 42 frames so you have 47 frames assuming falco wall jumps and firebirds asap(which he wont theres probably gonna be a 3-6 frame delay).
In the match there were two situations where he down smashes and drops a potential edgeguard.

In the first one(15:18) he could have held right tilt during his downsmash to buffer a turnaround(1 frame) and jumped backwards(5 frame jumpsquat) to space a Bair(comes out frame 12 which is more than enough time to reach him while you jump backwards). In total that sequence would take 35 or 36 frames(frame perfect) compared to the falco who's sequence takes 47 frames(frame perfect). Even if youre late you can throw the bair right in front of falco since the last quarter of your tail is disjointed. After hitting with bair just follow him(dont jump just fall with him) and bair again.

In the second situation (15:30) falcos lower so he he could have either spaced a bair like in the previous situation or could have charged a pivot f smash at the edge(the only way falco could avoid that is by going straight up or down in which case he dies). He may have been able to dair him too since he was lower.

However the optimal thing would have been to
1. downsmash closer to the ledge so that you dont waste so much time approaching
2. Save a fully charged shadowball for edgeguards because that would have been better in both situations. Keep in mind that fully chargedshadowball does 25% damage and therefore will not be overprioritized by firebird like uncharged shadowballs. If you havent read up on priority please do its not how people think it is and i believe its essential to know if you want to properly learn a matchup.

Your method is useful for setting up edgeguards when you cant reach them in time, but its better to go offstage when spacies are using their upB. When you land a bair keep going back because if they DI away you can bair again. If they end up closer for whatever reason(DI, sourspot, low%) hit em with dair and grab ledge.
On a side note I should have a flow chart up within the next week.

 

[SuperShus]

On a side note I should have a flow chart up within the next week.

I am excited to read it can you post it in a new thread?

 

[ihasabuket]

Made a guide on edgeguarding spacies. There are parts that are flowchart-y. I welcome you all to read it. Its called edgeguarding spacies lemme know what you guys think, and if someone could come up with a better name thatd be great

 

[IdkLmao]

So i'm just starting to set up a training routine with mewtwo. I will be eventually testing to see if its possible to learn the bair edge guard by yourself. This is a little bit down the road though as I have some other things i'm trying to learn right now. If I figure it out and can do that edgeguard with great consistency then i'll report back to you guys.