How the new shield mechanics effect Mewtwo

[SaucyDancer]

I haven't seen anyone discuss this for Mewtwo yet and Im curious to see how these changes would effect him.

I can see them working in his favour making fair better for shield pressure and smash attacks being less punishable on shield.

 

[Nobie]

I'm testing out Mewtwo's Jab and it seems to have some interesting mixups with the new shield stun mechanics.

Mewtwo's base damage for Jab 1 is 4%. This gives it 5 (4?) frames of shield stun.

Mewtwo's rapid jab activates 6 frames after the first hit.

This means that in order to beat his rapid jab after shielding with an attack it needs to come out frame 1. Not even Sheik's frame-2 jab can beat it.

OoS options such as grab can beat it, but these can be out-spaced in a lot of instances such that the OoS move whiffs and rapid jab hits. Probably things like Mario Up B will win, however.

Rolls can get past that the rapid jab, but here's the fun part: Mewtwo if he chooses NOT to rapid jab will recover more quickly than the opponent's roll.

This is something I'm sure a lot of characters can do (haven't test it extensively but based on the frame data of other characters I'd assume so), but this is on top of Mewtwo's other jab properties. Jab 1 has no recoil effect when its disjoint hits other attacks (within 9%), what's sometimes referred to as trample. Jab 1 also combos into grab, and Jab 1 into Disable is also a mixup.

Basically, this means that Mewtwo's Jab is potentially able to win against Attacks, Grabs, AND Shields. Against attacks, possible trample. Against grabs, no grab armor means potentially stuffing the grab attempt. Against shields, a mixup.

 

[godogod]

http://smashboards.com/threads/viab...ive-impressions.410551/page-267#post-20226870

I am skeptical that any of Mewtwo's stuff becomes safe, but I guess we'll see. Jab and d-tilt could benefit quite a bit, in some contexts. Oh, and D-smash probably becomes truly safe! But Mewtwo's reliance on grab and his modest reliance on shield makes him an unhappy floating lemur with these changes. At least Shadow Ball is safer, that's nice.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Hey, I made a 1.1.1 shieldstun section in the metagame thread. It has all the numbers and cool things like that. Some stuff is still being discovered so I am not able to post which moves have positive frames or anything like that. Also, the numbers might change as things get more specific.

 

[Browny]

Fair when spaced anywhere other than point blank looks to be very safe about - 3~4 disadvantage. With a decent amount of shield knockback, I don't know if any characters can actually punish this even when hitting at mid-range.

Full charge shadowball is 100% safe even from point blank. Its like -3 again but the shield knockback is gigantic, only punishable by tether grabs

dtilt and dsmash, a little better than before.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Fair when spaced anywhere other than point blank looks to be very safe about - 3~4 disadvantage. With a decent amount of shield knockback, I don't know if any characters can actually punish this even when hitting at mid-range.

Full charge shadowball is 100% safe even from point blank. Its like -3 again but the shield knockback is gigantic, only punishable by tether grabs

dtilt and dsmash, a little better than before.

Shaya started a Shield thread so I was able to read up on it a bit more, but I still don't want to update the thread until everything is proven. So probably this weekend. Also, Shieldstun overlaps with shield lock. so unless a move has more then 7? frames of shieldstun it is not going to affect the shields lock period. also, during shield stun you can still roll/jump/JC without the shieldstun effecting it. only dropping shield to punish with a grab or the like has been seriously nerfed. the other options were just slightly nerfed. So this is good news for Mewtwo and bad news for chars like shiek and pikachu who use dash grab oos. I hope this helps! I am still trying to fully grasp it myself so... yeah...

 

[meleebrawler]

I'd imagine Mewtwo's low traction would make his shield somewhat harder to pressure compared to most, especially when combined with the ability to short-hop air dodge out of shieldstun like Sonicninja115 said.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I'd imagine Mewtwo's low traction would make his shield somewhat harder to pressure compared to most, especially when combined with the ability to short-hop air dodge out of shieldstun like Sonicninja115 said.

I still don't understand this fully myself, and I am still trying to uncover what was changed in the hitlag department and if it benefits Mewtwo.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm still in the belief that this patch benefits Mewtwo overall fairly well. He gains some safer moves on shield like a lot of characters, but conversely isn't as affected by greater shieldstun than most since it never really was a big part of his game to begin with largely due to his low traction, which will now work to make it harder to pressure than most.

 

[Karsticles]

More shieldstun is good for us. However, the extra shield damage is huge. Double Fair is now unshieldable. Charged Shadow Ball makes Nair and Fair unshieldable. We have some vicious new offensive options.

 

[PEACE7]

You should link me to that thread Shaya made.

Shaya started a Shield thread so I was able to read up on it a bit more, but I still don't want to update the thread until everything is proven. So probably this weekend. Also, Shieldstun overlaps with shield lock. so unless a move has more then 7? frames of shieldstun it is not going to affect the shields lock period. also, during shield stun you can still roll/jump/JC without the shieldstun effecting it. only dropping shield to punish with a grab or the like has been seriously nerfed. the other options were just slightly nerfed. So this is good news for Mewtwo and bad news for chars like shiek and pikachu who use dash grab oos. I hope this helps! I am still trying to fully grasp it myself so... yeah...

 

[meleebrawler]

More shieldstun is good for us. However, the extra shield damage is huge. Double Fair is now unshieldable. Charged Shadow Ball makes Nair and Fair unshieldable. We have some vicious new offensive options.

I don't remember hearing anything about moves actually causing more damage on shield...

 

[LRodC]

I overall like this and dislike this at the same time for Mewtwo. I'll be testing out different shield pressure options now, and down tilt/down smash being more safe is very cool. I don't like, however, that Mewtwo has less opportunities to shield grab now, which would allow him to rack up some damage with f-throw and kill with u-throw.

Also I'd like some very much needed actual buffs, but hey, I can wait

 

[meleebrawler]

I overall like this and dislike this at the same time for Mewtwo. I'll be testing out different shield pressure options now, and down tilt/down smash being more safe is very cool. I don't like, however, that Mewtwo has less opportunities to shield grab now, which would allow him to rack up some damage with f-throw and kill with u-throw.

Also I'd like some very much needed actual buffs, but hey, I can wait

The way I, and a lot of Mewtwo players it seems, play him really uses relatively little shielding in favour of movement, spacing and airdodging to make him a tricky target. Shieldgrabs were hardly reliable before so making them even more so isn't really much of a detriment in the long run. Just look at Greninja.

Also, grabs are most certainly not Mewtwo's number 1 source of damage and kills. They serve more to reposition and gain stage control with the high damage just being an added bonus. As for the kill throws, they just happen to be one of Mewtwo's safer options for getting the KO. He doesn't absolutely need them like in Melee.

 

[Karsticles]

I overall like this and dislike this at the same time for Mewtwo. I'll be testing out different shield pressure options now, and down tilt/down smash being more safe is very cool. I don't like, however, that Mewtwo has less opportunities to shield grab now, which would allow him to rack up some damage with f-throw and kill with u-throw.

Also I'd like some very much needed actual buffs, but hey, I can wait

Mewtwo's grab is so awful as it is. He hardly ever gets shield grab opportunities unless he runs into an aerial and shields it. Predictive Nair and evasive techniques are far more useful.

I don't remember hearing anything about moves actually causing more damage on shield...

Shield damage was universally buffed, which is why Marth's Shield Breaker got nerfed, right? It's also why Yoshi's Dair breaks shields now, when before it didn't have enough power.

It's also why we have videos of stuff like Jigglypuff breaking a shield with Rest now, and Shulk shattering a fresh shield with Fsmash. If shield damage wasn't increased, I find that mighty odd and confusing.

 

[LRodC]

Mewtwo's grab is so awful as it is. He hardly ever gets shield grab opportunities unless he runs into an aerial and shields it. Predictive Nair and evasive techniques are far more useful.


Shield damage was universally buffed, which is why Marth's Shield Breaker got nerfed, right? It's also why Yoshi's Dair breaks shields now, when before it didn't have enough power.

It's also why we have videos of stuff like Jigglypuff breaking a shield with Rest now, and Shulk shattering a fresh shield with Fsmash. If shield damage wasn't increased, I find that mighty odd and confusing.

I believe that might be because of the shield stun increasing, which forces your opponent to stay in shield longer than before the patch if hit. I'm not sure if shield damage was increased or not or shield health decreased, but I think what I said is likely the case of why moves are breaking shields more often.

 

[Karsticles]

I believe that might be because of the shield stun increasing, which forces your opponent to stay in shield longer than before the patch if hit. I'm not sure if shield damage was increased or not or shield health decreased, but I think what I said is likely the case of why moves are breaking shields more often.

That could also be, but some of the shield damage I have seen is pretty massive.

 

[Sonicninja115]

You should link me to that thread Shaya made.

Just go to the SSB4 general thread, it is like shields 1.1.1.