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How ought I improve Bowser within a homebrew-Smash I'm making?

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Nov 27, 2008
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I'm coding a Smash-game for the DS—it's coming along very well, thank you—and I take breaks from programming by thinking about character-designs. Bowser's the character I most relate to, and I've had a great deal of fun thinking up the following little boosts and additions.

The new Bowser is probably vastly overpowered. I want to have good players guide me on how to improve everyone, so what I'm doing to Bowser probably will only be enough to have him just keep up! :laugh:

Brawl-Bowser is the base for the new King Koopa. (The game I'm making is called "Smash Riot," by the way.)

Burn, Baby, Burn!
To immediately start off, Bowser's fire is infinite, controllable, and slightly faster than before. The red flash is also going away. All things considered, dominating an ultimately small area immediately in front of Bowser isn't a tremendous asset: why limit it? Yes; edgeguarding becomes nearly brain-dead; but why couldn't you play keep-away with the most sluggish fighter in the roster? You've deserved your death.

JayDeth recommended changing the fire-breath change to a fireball-projectile, but we came to agree that just tapping B ought to be the projectile (and I imagine it like the NES-fireball, as the slowest projectile in the game).

You Can Run….
There's a little "rare candy" in Smash Riot that I'm hyped about: it's a running special-attack. Bowser's the second one to get a run-special. The move is a variation of the neutral-special that is usable only while running: in the given case, Bowser can breathe fire while advancing. The "you could've avoided that, ace"-point still stands, as the lag after releasing the fire is worse than a standing breath; and it can't be jump-canceled or reversed: you can easily navigate around him.

That Shell's Not Just for Show, Anymore.
One of the coolest features of Riot-Bowser that is concurrently one of the most annoying ideas to implement is the hyper-armor on Bowser's shell: not super-armor; hyper-armor. Hyper-armor has no breaking-point, if you didn't know. The only thing that can hit through Bowser's shell is a move that hit his entire body at once—which roughly translates to "just Smart Bombs and Final Smashes"—or grabs/throws.

"Bowser used TACKLE!"
Bowser's normal dash-attack is going to keep every frame of lag it has and every bit of crappy range that's always made it nearly useless: to compense, it will be the most unstoppable move in the game. From the right range, a dash-attack is guaranteed to snuff anything an opponent can use to attack.

Both Special Grabs
The side-B will remain as the Moonsault Press (or whatever it's called… I play too much 3S…), but the standard grab becomes the infamous old Klaw. The Klaw will have every old property except auto-biting, and have an up- and down-throw. To further impose that a grab is meant to defeat shields, the strike-aspect of the Klaw is unblockable.

From a close-enough range, Bowser's side-B is a 0-frame throw; otherwise, it's just like in Brawl.

The Niftiest Wavedash Since the '80s Came Through(?)
Something that needs to be explained is that there'll be an official command for wavedashing, in Riot; down→forward/back. Making wavedashing a true move allows it to adopt fun new properties, such as what Riot-Bowser has done. Wavedashing forward appears to be identical to the old run (the dash-attack is now assigned to the old running-command), but is not actually so: it's a held wavedash that Bowser can do his running-special from or cancel into a standard-ground attack. Wavedashing backwards makes Bowser propel himself backwards, thus giving Bowser an armored advance while being able to spray flames in his wake… or canceling into a turn-around side-B/ftilt.

Another addition to the wavedash is a repeat-hit attack-box. The attack is easily escapable, but is a fun addition that may make some fun setups possible.

Spiking Without Effort
I was on a wicked caffeine-buzz a while ago, and thought up something fun: give Bowser's footsteps a small bit of wind, and make them spike people on the ledge. The idea's just silly and largely impractical, but why not do it? :)

Heavy B!
Brawl-Bowser's "weight," insofar as I understand, is a knockback-reduction of 50%. If I am correct in my understanding, then Riot-Bowser will "weigh" 700%. At first blush, the idea seems RIDICULOUSLY bad; but not all things are always as they first appear to be.

Victory will be handled differently than before, in Smash Riot. In instances wherein both players have an equal number of stocks, the one with the highest damage-percentage will lose: with Bowser's sloth, this can ensure that a good player can just rack up 500 or so points of damage and then simply avoid Bowser for the remaining duration of the match FTW: besides, hitting hyper-armor still increases damage; so patient shell-poking (which Bowsers are likely to allow) until you can land a good smash on Bowser's soft underbelly is a viable tactic.

Bowser's not DUMB, you know!
A fun trick for the suicidal is the ability to grab a ledge during a Moonsault Press if you're facing the ledge (and're—of course—close enough). The grabbed player still plummets to their death, but Bowser will survive handily: I have a feeling I'll be getting a few letter-bombs and black eyes for this.

Pimped His Ride
The famous Koopa Clown Car is making an appearance! Instead of the shell-based dair, Bowser's new dair will be the Koopa Clown Car: it hits with the propeller, making it about the same as before. The new dair will hover slightly, to allow Wario-like short-hops with dairs.

You know how your abs start spasming uncontrollably if your environment's cold enough? I'm at that point, and my jittering hands can't write much more. I'll add the rest of my little tweaks later: look forward to it! Feel free to make your own suggestions (beyong the after-lag of the Bowser Bomb sucking alot less and having some decent wind, which I've already planned)!
 

Phiddlesticks

Smash Lord
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I entered this topic expecting my post to be "Make Dedede's down throw have more knockback."

So uh, I have no idea what to suggest now. Other than don't go overboard with things like 'hyper armour'.
 

Liquid Gen

Smash Ace
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Kk, I'm list now.

1) Make his down smash something else, or at least make it non-DIable.

2) Make his dair spike easier.

3) Give his bair semi-spiking properties back from melee.

4) Make utilt hit in front as well.

5) Dair has less lag.

That's about all I can think of right now. =/
 

B!squick

Smash Master
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I see good things here. Rather than balancing a game by nerfing the good characters, just make everyone broken and that seems to be the general idea here with Bowser not being one of the better characters in the game. I like all the ideas, though I would have to know what you have planned for everyone else and to see it in practise before I give it any yays or nays, but seems good so far.

As for ideas... what lowering the lag on the NAIR and making it all around faster? Perhaps making him shoot fireballs like in the original Mario Bros. like I always thought he should have. =.= Also, that would be great music to have in the game. The verse Bowser tune that always played when you fought him. :D And hey, good luck on the project.

EDIT: Also, I agree with everything Liquid Gen said.
 
Joined
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Oh! Simply download the game onto your computer, and upload it onto a blank DS-card. There's an established process for playing homebrew on the DS: I'll make a point of teaching it, after I actually have a game for people to play. :laugh:

I'm very impressed by the utilt-idea, Gen! It'd give Bowser a quick super-close range move for when dealing with "pixies" such as Fox and Meta Knight: the same goes for the improvements to nair (sans the fireballs; as I've got to pull some references for that, to first see what that looks like), which I'm glad to also implement. I'm not at all against any of the other things you said, Gen; but those two really stood out enough to get explicit mention.

:) Here's another buff!

Heavy B!
Brawl-Bowser's "weight," insofar as I understand, is a knockback-reduction of 50%. If I am correct in my understanding, then Riot-Bowser will "weigh" 700%. At first blush, the idea seems RIDICULOUSLY bad; but not all things are always as they first appear to be.

Victory will be handled differently than before, in Smash Riot. In instances wherein both players have an equal number of stocks, the one with the highest damage-percentage will lose: with Bowser's sloth, this can ensure that a good player can just rack up 500 or so points of damage and then simply avoid Bowser for the remaining duration of the match FTW.

Bowser's not DUMB, you know!
A fun trick for the suicidal is the ability to grab a ledge during a Moonsault Press if you're facing the ledge (and're—of course—close enough). The grabbed player still plummets to their death, but Bowser will survive handily: I have a feeling I'll be getting a few letter-bombs and black eyes for this.

Well it's not as if you could have made him a worse character.
Just to get you to stop tainting the sanctum of the great King, I'll make a Lucas-thread in the appropriate forum, next. :laugh: Don't bother posting a response saying "thanks" or something: that'd go against the whole point of my action. Just wait. ;)
 

B!squick

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700%? While probably appropriate, it sounds like Bowser is going to have a really slow move speed, is this correct?
 
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Bowser's not going to intentionally be made any slower. The notion behind the extreme reduction is to make absolutely **** sure that Bowser is the tank he's supposed to be. Some fighters—Fox and Falcon immediately come to mind—are based on their Melee-incarnations, and will be notably quicker than Bowser to a degree where the percentage-clause will likely be their key to victory. Killing moves are likely to have a greater deal of fixed-minimum knockback, so that Bowser can still be taken off the stage and gimped.

Another thing to know is that Bowser's shell does not have hyper-armor while in hitstun, so Wombo Combos (or whatever else to that effect) will still work on him.
 

SkylerOcon

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Bowser? Why not just call him Akuma.

Sure he'll lose if both opponents are on the same stock, but I'm assuming you're keeping his power. There is no doubt that the opponent will die before Bowser.

Bowser is broken. Seriously. Make him die at a reasonable percent, unless everybody else lives that long (and in that case, the attacks must be super damaging).
 
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Ah; the smell of dissent!

:p I supposed a third blush is needed for you, Skyler.

I know fully well how extreme 700% is. Do you honestly believe that I'm going to outright break just one character, and not compense for it throughout the others of the roster? I advise you to give your imagination a good work-out, for your own sake as well as Riot's: if you're so afraid of a heavy Bowser—and you really oughtn't be, as Mario's upgrades will make taking Bowser on a cinch (although I haven't told you what they are, yet…)—then help to give the rest of the cast fun new ways around it! ;)
 

MorphedChaos

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One question, what characters do you have coded so far? I'd love for you to code a Gardevoir if you could :) (And I've got 32 bit sprites for you to use if you can as well.)
 
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One question, what characters do you have coded so far? I'd love for you to code a Gardevoir if you could :) (And I've got 32 bit sprites for you to use if you can as well.)
:( Sorry; but the roster's pretty much set, and Pokémon's reached its (unofficial) four-character limit. I know Yoshi puts Super Mario at five, but I can't go making things worse.

It's being made in 3D, too. I'm not saying that your sprites aren't appreciated—they may very well be used—but I needs me some meshes. :bee:
 

B!squick

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Speaking of Pokemon, which ones are you gonna have? Lucario is cool and all but I miss MewTwo and Pichu lots. *sad face*
 

MorphedChaos

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Your doing it in 3D? O.o, well, then I can't help you there. The sprites I have have depth like 3D but are still 2D. Are you going to add any new characters in general?

As for Bowser, he kinda seems OP as all hell due to hyper armor, but thats about it.
 
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As for Bowser, he kinda seems OP as all hell due to hyper armor, but thats about it.
Remember that he only has hyper-armor on is BACK: he'll need to face you, to attack; and he's vulnerable to grabs either way. The only indestructible offense Bowser has is bair-spam, and even that has landing-lag (even WITH automatic L-canceling) in which you can grab or hit him. The ultimate effect is that the days of simply rushing up on Bowser are entirely ****ing dead.

Right now, I'm still ironing-out the underlying system (currently building technique-response methods for input). Getting a fully-functional collision-system that didn't come with a physics-engine took me a (very exceedingly stressful) month, and I've been moving slowly ever since. Once the systems made, programming characters'll be a matter of editing a few plain-text data-files. :)
 

MorphedChaos

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Hm. Alright. Could I interest you in a few fan characters of mine that are not rip-offs of other characters (Totally original) and could add unique play styles and abilities to the game?

I forgot to mention, that the wireframe would be pretty basic too. (Although, Light looks like a Gardevoir, trying to get her more origonal, but its hard >.<)
 
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The only two original characters slated are one of my own ('cause I'm doing all the work) and a friend's character ('cause he talked me into the project). I'm trying to cut down the roster some (I've benignly removed 3, so far), and I can't be too liberal. While I'm here:

Planned Additions:
Ness (Advance Wars) [formerly Grit]
Adder (Advance Wars)
Tingle (Legend of Zelda)
Cooking Mama (Duke Nukem)
Elite Beat Agent(s)
??? (???)
??? (???)
??? (!!!)
Animal Crosser (Animal Crossing) [if I can flesh it out]
Playable Boss-Character (Super Smash Bros. Brawl… kinda)
You do NOT wanna know! (Seriously) [depends on how much the community annoys me]



Seems hypocritical, eh?
 

MorphedChaos

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Yeah, Kinda. My character I'd like to use would have the unique ability of "Aura" Not like Lucario, but instead, if an attack doesn't do s certain amount of damage, its negated. If an attack hits that breaks the aura, hes suseptable to combo moves, but until then, hes invulnerable. I have the aura set at 20% (to be a 100:0 MK counter, as MK is the only character with an attack that doesn't do 20% damage.) hes really slow, has projectiles, and a shield like links. hes also very light, due to his aura being so powerful.

He also has a move called "Summon" Where the longer its charged, the more powerful thing is summoned, you can go and have fun with this one, as it can be literally anything you want.
 
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Hm! I've got alot planned for Lucario, and your ideas are GREAT additions to him! The summon-idea is something I see fitting into alot of places!

;) I can gladly incorporate the spirit of your character into Riot, even if it doesn't have a slot on the roster. If you've ever got any more ideas, feel free to PM me!

Now, uh, can anyone link me to a video or something of a Mario-game wherein Bowser does a move like his Smash-nair while shooting fireballs? (Or did I misread JayDeth?)
 

MorphedChaos

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Nah, I don't think he does that in any game, but it doesn't look TOO hard to animate. but I duno how long it'll take me, I've got a ton of obligations already.
 

SkylerOcon

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:p I supposed a third blush is needed for you, Skyler.

I know fully well how extreme 700% is. Do you honestly believe that I'm going to outright break just one character, and not compense for it throughout the others of the roster? I advise you to give your imagination a good work-out, for your own sake as well as Riot's: if you're so afraid of a heavy Bowser—and you really oughtn't be, as Mario's upgrades will make taking Bowser on a cinch (although I haven't told you what they are, yet…)—then help to give the rest of the cast fun new ways around it! ;)
Alright. As long as every character could counter this, this is fine. But I don't even know how, but I trust that your creativity as a game designer will have helped you reach a few cool tweaks on every character.
 

B!squick

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I just meant fireballs like what the old 2D Bowser could cook up, you know? Loose the Firebreath in favor of an actual projectile that he totally should have had in the first place. >.>

Also, as awesome as the Fortress of *** kickery is, I've also thought that Bowser's UpB should have been that clown faced device with the propeller that he rode on Super Mario World. That would be ****ing epic to see. o_o Though everything else you have planned is fantastic on it's own. :)
 

LinIsKorean

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Super Mario World was so win. The first game I ever played. Ever. This is the stuff that got me into gaming in the first place, and I agree that he should have a FireBall if you tap B, and a long flame (like the current B) if you hold it. Epicness.
 
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Super Mario World was so win. The first game I ever played. Ever. This is the stuff that got me into gaming in the first place, and I agree that he should have a FireBall if you tap B, and a long flame (like the current B) if you hold it. Epicness.
:laugh: And thus a healthy compromise is reached!

I just meant fireballs like what the old 2D Bowser could cook up, you know? Loose the Firebreath in favor of an actual projectile that he totally should have had in the first place. >.>

Also, as awesome as the Fortress of *** kickery is, I've also thought that Bowser's UpB should have been that clown faced device with the propeller that he rode on Super Mario World. That would be ****ing epic to see. o_o Though everything else you have planned is fantastic on it's own. :)
Hm. I don't want to go too far with the transformation-stuff—Fox, Link, Trainer, Samus, and Zelda are already slated to have that sort of thing—but I can do this: have Bowser enter the stage with the Koopa Clown Car, and exit it. He can hop into it like Wario and his bike, but Bowser can't respawn his vehicle. My "I'm going too far"-sense is starting to tingle, so don't expect too much of this idea too soon. :p

And off I go to improve the game's input-handling (it's FAR too bulky, right now)!
 

B!squick

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The only two original characters slated are one of my own ('cause I'm doing all the work) and a friend's character ('cause he talked me into the project). I'm trying to cut down the roster some (I've benignly removed 3, so far), and I can't be too liberal. While I'm here:

Planned Additions:
Ness (Advance Wars) [formerly Grit]
Adder (Advance Wars)
Tingle (Legend of Zelda)
Cooking Mama (Duke Nukem)
Elite Beat Agent(s)
??? (???)
??? (???)
??? (!!!)
Animal Crosser (Animal Crossing) [if I can flesh it out]
Playable Boss-Character (Super Smash Bros. Brawl… kinda)
You do NOT wanna know! (Seriously) [depends on how much the community annoys me]



Seems hypocritical, eh?
This should answer your question.

Also, will Ganondorf actually use his epic sword he's been too cool to use so far? It seemed like such a waste to code something so cool that you can only see in a taunt.
 

Darknid

Smash Journeyman
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Nov 14, 2008
Messages
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I could only agree with all of this if every character got insane boosts..

But there are two ideas I really like, the running flamethrower and grabbing a ledge when you are bowserciding(well I guess then you wouldn't be but okay). It already looks like he is reaching for it.
 

B!squick

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Hm! How about the Clown Car as his dair; hyper-armored (except from above?), same hit-area as old dair, with moderate horizontal winds away from whole car at spawn, floats slightly, explodes as land-lag, and clown-face turns sinister past a certain percentage?
That sounds epic! ... But it sounds like a recovery special and not a Dair really... and it wouldn't really fit Bowser's play style (the current one anyway). Maybe if it was the Up Air... or the Up Special? Or something, I don't know.
 

B!squick

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OH I see now. That does sound really epic then. And would the explode just be an animation or would it be it's own attack?

Also, a friend reminded me that Bowser also threw axes al la Hammer Bros. >=)
 

calv

Smash Cadet
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I know it's obviously in the early stages (and it sounds awesome already) but do you have any sprites made up or anything visual yet you could show us?

Plus if you're making Bowser top tier, maybe give his Bowser Bomb a little more priority, so even if somebody does an upA with a sword whilst you're bombing, they would both take the hit.
 
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