How is Villager's meta playing out?

[Soshii]

Did you see my video I killed mario pretty early. It's a pretty good example.

Against a level 8 CPU. I'm not trying to downplay your skill, but what I linked to was an actual tournament.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Rocket really shouldn't be used offensively or as a recovery move. It's best utility is as a spacing tool to give you opportunities to either plant a tree or chop at one. Although there's also the fact that a ledge rocket has increased knockback and damage for some reason, so you could try it there if you're getting ledgeguarded heavily.

Actually in general Villager is a purely spacing-oriented character, and I feel that once the full game comes out Moody Sapling will be the standard variation of the move because of the sheer amount of stage control it gives. As of now regular timber is an opportunistic move where you plant it and chop it down whenever you have the chance, not because you should be hoping to hit your opponent with it (although that's a nice plus), but because you want to get a piece of timber from it. And even then, depending on the matchup, regular timber can have even less use.

As a lot of people have said, Villager's main flaw is how incredibly difficult it is to KO. Like its pretty easy to rack up damage, but KOing is a real chore. Nearly all of my KOs have been through deliberate gimps. The good news is that standard Balloon Trip makes it really easy to do so. Chasing opponents offstage and gimping with either FFNair or WOP Bair is pretty safe because of how much leeway you have in recovering. Still though, having to rely on gimps is NEVER a good thing.

Villager really doesn't have very many combo options because of how little hitstun their attacks have, even compared to Brawl. I think at low percents Usmash is a guaranteed combo into itself. You can also do jab > jab > dtilt, SHNair > Ftilt > SHNair, and sometimes double SHNair. I think you can also buffer Utilt out of SHNair. At mid-high percents your best chance for a combo is DSmash > Uair chase, and that is really unfortunate given how ridiculously readable Dsmash is and how unreliable Uair is.

In terms of immediate knockback Uthrow is the best, followed by Fthrow. Though as we all know grab is a ****en joke. Dthrow WOULD be excellent for combos if it didn't have such abysmal hitstun.

I think grab release > Aerial/Axe is also guaranteed on certain characters but I'd need to do testing.

There's also the fact that a lot of Villager's tilts are really REALLY punishable on shield. This really restricts the utility of Ftilt and Utilt so most of the time when the opponent has penetrated your space your options boil down to trying to pressure with jab and retreating Fair.

Speaking about Fair and Bair their main drawback is how hard it is to time their execution from a short hop to get even medium grounded characters.

All in all though I give villager 6/10 its brety gud

 

[gbaespada]

I agree I can upload some matches with my friends if you want haven't lost to them yet

Villager's Back throw is a decent kill move imo. I've been able to KO with shorthop bairs and fairs also.

 

[Soshii]

I think Villager will definitely be great in doubles, but in competitive 1v1 matches, it'll be tough. Like you said Indigo Jeans, relying on gimping, especially on other characters with great recovery sucks. Bowling ball is too predictable, and zoning until the opponent is at 200% to kill with throws or tilts will always be hard. I think the most promising tech as of now is the ledge lloyd.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I honestly can't think of a single situation in singles when you should be using Fsmash over anything else aside from following a successful Dsmash, and if the opponent is recovering from straight below the edge. The first situation is already hard enough to pull off as it is (and the opponent has to be at ~90% or higher on average for them to stay buried long enough with mashing for you to come out of the animation AND Fsmash's hitbox to come out), and for the second your opponent has to be something like Ike or another character with garbage recovery, who you could more reliably gimp with other options. And when a move's usefulness is limited to two rare situations, that should be your cue to not try and throw it out every which way.

Even in doubles you're going to be hard pressed to find an opportunity where it would be better to pocket your partner's Fsmash than to have each of you plant a tree for stage control. I mean I don't want to be a downer but people REALLY overplay the usefulness of pocketed Fsmash and tree. Like sure, they have INSANE knockback and damage output, being guaranteed KOs around like 20-30%, but its just actually getting to that point that makes it not worth your time. Not to mention that I think pocket only stores an item for something like 30 seconds. So you're using up your pocket for something that might not even be there when you finally find an opening to make use of it, when you could instead keep your pocket free for emergencies like absorbing projectiles in matchups like Robin, Samus, Zamus, Mega Man, Link, Pikachu (especially important because of the jolt and thunder buffs), etc.

Don't get me wrong, I ****en love Villager as a character. They're incredibly fun to play as and as a ROB player in brawl the playstyle is pretty similar so I'm comfortable with it. But I don't see Villager being a top tier threat. Like maybe high C to low B.

Of course though, that doesn't mean we should just resign ourselves to the fact. Right now I feel our worst matchup is Greninja, because he doesn't really as heavily on projectiles, but he has incredible spacing game and disjointed hitboxes which will be able to fundamentally outplay Villager. However, Villager will probably be a solid counter to high tier characters like Pac-Man and DHD, because hydrant is really neutered by Pocket and the tree, and Villager can probably outspace the latter. Bowser might even be a lot better this game around, and Villager can probably deal with him really easily as well, along with Little Mac.

 

[Soshii]

I meant Villager would be more useful in doubles in general, I wasn't referring to the double-Villager team everyone is hyped about. I honestly don't see the tree or bowling ball pockets to be viable at all in a competitive setting. I mentioned the bowling ball because it seems to be Villager's only move that would consistently kill at all not including moves that need to be set up like the tree or RNG dair that barely kills at high percentages anyway with the new vectoring system.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Ah alright, I see. Yeah sorry I thought you were referring to double Villager teams. But yeah double Villager is way overhyped lmao.

Yeah Fsmash is literally the most reliable KO move Villager has which is kind of disheartening. Dair isn't too bad. It's actually pretty forgiving. Late 1-turnip and 2-turnip Dair have around the same knockback so if you throw that out too early it doesn't make much of a difference. And actually sourspotted 3-turnip Dair applies more knockback than the spiking hitbox, which is good. Because like you said, KBI really dampens the effectiveness of the spike. So most of the time you should actually be spacing it to get the sourspot, since it'll knock the opponent farther away from the stage. And think about it, even if they add an opposite vector to reduce their horizontal knockback, that still puts them in a tough spot, since now they're in your comfort zone and its significantly easier to gimp them. Basically you shouldn't be aiming to KO with Dair, but you should be spacing it to set up gimps.

 

[Wasoodle]

Yeah, villager looks like the character that looks like one of the best in doubles, but struggles in 1v1 matches.

My main KOing move with him is riding on the Lloid rocket. I don't see many people doing it much but it's pretty good. It can kill pretty early on light characters and it can be hard to punish when you do it like right on their heads. If they dodge it then you can time it to jump off right at the ledge so you don't get punished. If they shield then you bounce off them and can follow up with and dair or a nair. Dtilt, Utilt, and close up bair are nice choices as well. D-Smash -> F-Smash/U-Smash could work too (not on cpu's though because they have like inhumane button mashing.) But yeah, it may be hard to get a KO with villager if you're playing against a smart player.

 

[Eulette]

I’ve only played the demo against the cpu so what I say won’t probably apply against other players, but using short hop Fairs or Bairs alongside Lloyd rocket seem to be a safe way to pressure since you can fast fall into a Down tilt or a Ftilt, or (I think) a Nair if you don’t fast fall. But I haven’t seen any Villagers on the replays doing that so I don’t know how effective it really is.

Oh yeah, for those who have the full game, how useful is wall jumping on stage with flat edges? I mean, on battlefield it’s not very useful but on stage like omega unova league it looks like you could wall jump and fair or Lloyd rocket before grabbing the ledge, dunno.

 

[WhiteKnight]

I have spent LOTS of time playing villager in the demo and have found that the basic strategy for villager seems to be short hop slingshot camping paired with tree camping. both of which are powerful for edge-guarding. Unfortunately villagers offensive is limited because of his grab, which has lots of ending lag, and his spike being situational at best IMO

please discuss

 

[SamSun]

Uptilt is a good kill move, I actually get most of my kills with it. along with axe, which I've been experimenting with lately.

Villager is really good at frametrapping by doing stuff like nair to force them to airdodge, and then using axe to hit them out of the lag.

 

[YAYCONFORMITY]

I'm only going off the demo, which is obviously limited, but I don't see a ton of potential in villager.

Villager seems to sort of suffer from the issues Zelda has in Brawl. He has good defensive capabilities, but lacks a projectile to force approaches. Lloyd rocket is good for controlling space, but you shouldn't be getting a lot of direct hits off it unless you have careless opponents.

Slingshots are both good attacks, but their usefulness varies a bit based on enemy size. Smaller opponents are naturally harder to hit. Good spacing tool, although more mobile characters can get around it. The turnips are good in both their varieties, although the randomness factor hurts them. Nair is pretty much standard issue. Not bad, but not great.

His close up options are pretty bad. His jab doesn't actually knock back the opponent any reasonable distance (unless I'm missing something) so you can't easily swat opponents out of your face. Combine that with his poor grab range, and you have a character that struggles up close. Ftilt is an ok option, and down tilt is ok, but neither are really outstanding. Shovel is slow, and poor for punishing rolls, utilt is powerful but awkward, and FSmash is very powerful, but too slow for anything but a hard read or a terrible mistake.

Tree is a very good wall that would be good if you can establish a solid lead. If you need to actually deal damage though, it's not too useful. All you can do from the protection of the tree is fire off Lloyds, but your opponent should be able to doge them while waiting for the tree to come down. IF you get your opponent into a situation where they have to approach though, it's a pretty nice tool. It's situationally useful for edgeguarding too.

Pocket is a nice tool to have. I don't think it's as good as a regular projectile (in 1v1 at least) but it's a useful tool.

KOing is an issue. Sweetspot F and B air can kill on stage, but work better as gimps. Dtilt and bthrow work at high percentages, but his grab isn't that good. Utilt is fairly powerful but very unsafe if whiffed, and its range isn't great. Turnips work if you get three. There is the axe, but that's situational, and has some bad lag on a whiff. Definitely below average in that regard.

His recovery is like Robs, only you can't attack out of it, which makes it notably worse. If you're forced to recover high, you're pretty vulnerable to taking a hit. You'll never be too far to get on stage, but the better air characters will be able to harass you. That being said, the sheer distance of Balloon trip may allow Villager to be crafty with it. Lloyd rocket gives some versatility and a hitbox, which helps.

Villager has some really nice tools, but his overall moveset just doesn't gel. If Villager can get into a position where he can force an approach, he can do some damage, but his lack of a strong projectile to pressure with limits that. His weak up close options means that if an opponent gets in, he has a hard time getting out. His KO ability also leaves a lot to be desired. Unless something new is discovered (or custom moves are legal and are more useful), or if Diddy is top tier, I don't see Villager having much success.

 

[SamSun]

Gyroid could possibly be the single best projectile in the game.
he's probably the best out of anyone at forcing approaches, not sure where you got the idea that he's bad at it.

 

[Soshii]

Down tilt is also Villager's tool to start combos, get them into the air, or mindgame their airdodge and get a bowling ball ready. I think Dtilt is actually one of Villager's essential moves because of how fast it starts and it's range is surprisingly pretty big.

 

[YAYCONFORMITY]

Gyroid could possibly be the single best projectile in the game.
he's probably the best out of anyone at forcing approaches, not sure where you got the idea that he's bad at it.

You'll have to explain how that is to me. Rocket takes a decent amount of time to set up and it travels slowly. Pretty easy to cancel out if you wish if your character has a projectile or not. Unless you have molasses like reflexes, you can jump over it easily enough. So, I'm not sure why it's useful for forcing approaches.

 

[Soshii]

You'll have to explain how that is to me. Rocket takes a decent amount of time to set up and it travels slowly. Pretty easy to cancel out if you wish if your character has a projectile or not. Unless you have molasses like reflexes, you can jump over it easily enough. So, I'm not sure why it's useful for forcing approaches.

Because it limits options. It forces them to spot dodge or jump which is easy to predict.

Edit: Oops didn't see the "force approaches" part. Regardless, any projectile that can be spammed can force an approach, especially when it isn't stopped by most of the projectiles in the game.

 

[YAYCONFORMITY]

Because it limits options. It forces them to spot dodge or jump which is easy to predict.

Edit: Oops didn't see the "force approaches" part. Regardless, any projectile that can be spammed can force an approach, especially when it isn't stopped by most of the projectiles in the game.

Forcing your opponent to jump isn't a big deal, unless you're playing someone like Little Mac. There are many characters that are better at approaching using aerials. Plus, they don't even really have to jump. It's fairly easy for many characters to flick it away. In the demo for instance, Mega Man could deal with it with Crash Bomb or Metal Blades or Mega Buster, Pika could fire I believe two thunder jolts (which he fires more quickly), Mario can cape or fireball (2 again I think) nair or even ftilt, link could arrow bomb, ftilt, and so on. I'm sure most characters can deal with it. It's good cover for an approach, but it won't enable you to camp.

And not every projectile could force approaches. Din's fire for example, was so predictable that it could be dodged pretty consistently. I guess you could say it could force an approach if the opponent eventually got bored or impatient, but even then, the opponent could still take time to position themselves, get into their ideal range, and pick a good spot. Din's fire at least had some versatility as you could play with the angle and timing of the explosion, but Lloyd can't be guided that much, and once it's out it's predictable.

For a projectile to really force approaches consistently, it has to be a threat to do actual damage. If you can avoid it easily, then it doesn't work for that purpose, unless you're already up by a significant percentage or a stock. Once you have a good lead, Lloyd should be great, as it forces opponents to approach as you want them to. Set it high for characters like Jiggly who want to approach through the air, or low for characters like Mac who want to stay grounded. But, if your opponent has a lead, then it really wouldn't be that hard to dodge till time runs out.

 

[Player-1]

I'm pretty sure I can name a lot of projectiles that are better than gyroid. It's a good move, GREAT for zoning purposes, but there are definitely disadvantages to it. Like conformity said there are a lot of ways to deal with it, but stacked on that there are counters to those counters generally. Forcing your opponent in the air is really good. Villager has some good anti air moves like slingshot. I don't think he has a good punish game against people landing though. His bad grab really hurts that, of course it depends on the character and the situation. I think gyroid will definitely be a staple to his metgame in most MUs though.

 

[YAYCONFORMITY]

I'm pretty sure I can name a lot of projectiles that are better than gyroid. It's a good move, GREAT for zoning purposes, but there are definitely disadvantages to it. Like conformity said there are a lot of ways to deal with it, but stacked on that there are counters to those counters generally. Forcing your opponent in the air is really good. Villager has some good anti air moves like slingshot. I don't think he has a good punish game against people landing though. His bad grab really hurts that, of course it depends on the character and the situation. I think gyroid will definitely be a staple to his metgame in most MUs though.

I'm not saying gyroid is bad. It's a good addition to his arsenal. I just feel that it isn't the kind of projectile that villager would need to be high tier or above.

 

[Soshii]

I still think the Lloyd can force approaches as well as help your approaches, but I agree on Villager not being top tier material. Lack of kill moves are already so detrimental to his meta, I've watched alot of Japanese matches in tourneys with Villager getting 2 stocked for that reason alone.

 

[YAYCONFORMITY]

How exactly does Lloyd force approaches though? If I'm ahead in stock, is there any reason a good player can't dodge them for a few minutes?

 

[Soshii]

How exactly does Lloyd force approaches though? If I'm ahead in stock, is there any reason a good player can't dodge them for a few minutes?

But dodging them isn't an issue. If someone is camping a side spamming projectiles, it's going to force an approach or Villager is going to stall out the game. That goes for any projectile. Dodging or getting hit by a projectile isn't an issue. And to add to the point, again, Lloyd rockets limit options. "Making them jump/making them dodge isn't a big deal." It is because it only leaves them 3 options for you to respond to, they jump over everything, spot dodge, or air dodge. It makes them more predictable and makes for a more lucrative gameplay. Just because it can be easily deterred doesn't make it bad, but I'm not saying they're the best projectile in the game either.

 

[YAYCONFORMITY]

But dodging them isn't an issue. If someone is camping a side spamming projectiles, it's going to force an approach or Villager is going to stall out the game. That goes for any projectile. Dodging or getting hit by a projectile isn't an issue. And to add to the point, again, Lloyd rockets limit options. "Making them jump/making them dodge isn't a big deal." It is because it only leaves them 3 options for you to respond to, they jump over everything, spot dodge, or air dodge. It makes them more predictable and makes for a more lucrative gameplay. Just because it can be easily deterred doesn't make it bad, but I'm not saying they're the best projectile in the game either.

Doesn't force an approach unless

a) You're ahead of your opponent.

and

b) Your opponent doesn't have a better projectile or a reflector.

Villager has to have a lead, and unless it's a stock lead, it's still easy for an opponent to slowly get into range and pick a good spot to approach.

If you can't actually do damage, and your opponent is ahead, then there is no reason for them to do anything besides dodge and stay at full screen. They have to approach when behind in life, but any time you're behind you need to approach regardless of your opponents projectile options.

The other stuff you mentioned is more about using it for a tool to cover villager's approach, but it doesn't really explain how he could force an approach. Plus there are way more than 3 options from the air, assuming your opponent actually has to jump.

 

[deepseadiva]

I'm just gonna throw this out there: out doubt this is the best character in the game.

 

[Soshii]

Doesn't force an approach unless

a) You're ahead of your opponent.

and

b) Your opponent doesn't have a better projectile or a reflector.

Villager has to have a lead, and unless it's a stock lead, it's still easy for an opponent to slowly get into range and pick a good spot to approach.

If you can't actually do damage, and your opponent is ahead, then there is no reason for them to do anything besides dodge and stay at full screen. They have to approach when behind in life, but any time you're behind you need to approach regardless of your opponents projectile options.

The other stuff you mentioned is more about using it for a tool to cover villager's approach, but it doesn't really explain how he could force an approach. Plus there are way more than 3 options from the air, assuming your opponent actually has to jump.

Understood, thanks for the insight. I was thinking too generally there.

 

[YAYCONFORMITY]

Understood, thanks for the insight. I was thinking too generally there.

Yeah. Like I said, it's a useful move, but just not in that way. I feel like Villager has a lot of really neat things, but his moves just don't complement eachother. But, maybe someone who's better at this game than me will put it all together.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Well, you're not really trying to get the opponent to approach you in the first place, because like you said,

*snip*

You don't really need to force people to approach you. Villager can easily outcamp and outspace most characters save for fast, heavy hitters like Greninja, Sheik, Mario, and Pikachu. They HAVE to approach you if they don't want to be taking chip damage from SHFFFairs and Rockets. And I don't mean the Rockets are necessarily going to be hitting, but they're going to either avoid them or detonate them prematurely with their own projectiles, which opens up opportunities for YOU to approach.

You definitely have a point when it comes to Fair and Bair's usefulness. Characters shorter than Mario of Mega Man won't be getting hit by the aerials at all except for the end arc, which only deal like 2% so they can shrug it off. And nope, jab doesn't knock opponents away, you've got that right too. But it easily leads into Dtilt, Ftilt, and SHNair. Speaking of which, SHNair is easily your best option to get breathing space, as its hitbubble comes out around F3 and has decent knockback. Dtilt is usually for punishing rolls because of its greater-than-average vertical knockback. Dsmash is very situational and should only be used when you know you're going to pull it off, and even then you should only be using it over other moves at higher percents so you can chase into an Uair. Fsmash should be used exclusively for edgeguarding or something dumb like missed, really laggy specials and smashes.

Tree is mostly for stage control. Like you said situations where you're gonna deal damage with it are few and far between.

Pocket is neither better than nor worse than a normal projectile since Villager isn't wanting in that department. It really shines in certain MUs though, specifically Pikachu where you're going to have to watch out for TJolts everywhere that will lead into Usmashes and pop your balloons. Grab is terrible, but at mid percents, its your best tool for setting up KOs because of Bthrows high kbg leading into Fsmash ledgeguards. At higher percents its your go to KO option because of how much knockback its going to be applying. Its a shame grab is so horrendous.

Standard balloon trip is pretty bad, its true, because you are left totally helpless. Depending on the MU you need to make adjustments for where you want to recover from, but you've always got to be cautious. It also doesn't help that acceleration scales really slowly and decays quickly, so if you try and do flight adjustments by holding off on tapping B, chances are you won't be able to recover the altitude you lost and your balloons will either pop or you'll just sink into the blastlines. Lloid rocket should hardly never be used for recovery because of how easily gimpable it is. Iirc you go into helpless unless whatever you collided with passes a certain threshold or something. So opponent hurtbubbles and trees are good, but most projectiles will put you into helpless. There's also the fact that if you get reflected youre pretty much done unless you eject immediately, and even then you're easily punishable. It also doesn't help that if you're reflected while riding, the eventual explosion will hurt you.

Overall though, Villager is a solid mid-tier character because of the way they can force opponents to maneuver to their advantage. And if custom moves are legal, this will only be compounded by things like the moody sapling and detonating balloons.

Gyroid could possibly be the single best projectile in the game.
he's probably the best out of anyone at forcing approaches, not sure where you got the idea that he's bad at it.

As much as I'd like that to be so it simply isn't true. Gyroid is pretty standard, since it can be neutered by other projectiles. The Large Gyroid might be better because it's significantly harder to stop, covers a huge amount of ground, and hits multiple times to absorb projectiles and aerials. It's a decent projectile, but it's far from the best.

Forcing your opponent to jump isn't a big deal, unless you're playing someone like Little Mac. There are many characters that are better at approaching using aerials. Plus, they don't even really have to jump. It's fairly easy for many characters to flick it away. In the demo for instance, Mega Man could deal with it with Crash Bomb or Metal Blades or Mega Buster, Pika could fire I believe two thunder jolts (which he fires more quickly), Mario can cape or fireball (2 again I think) nair or even ftilt, link could arrow bomb, ftilt, and so on. I'm sure most characters can deal with it. It's good cover for an approach, but it won't enable you to camp.

And not every projectile could force approaches. Din's fire for example, was so predictable that it could be dodged pretty consistently. I guess you could say it could force an approach if the opponent eventually got bored or impatient, but even then, the opponent could still take time to position themselves, get into their ideal range, and pick a good spot. Din's fire at least had some versatility as you could play with the angle and timing of the explosion, but Lloyd can't be guided that much, and once it's out it's predictable.

For a projectile to really force approaches consistently, it has to be a threat to do actual damage. If you can avoid it easily, then it doesn't work for that purpose, unless you're already up by a significant percentage or a stock. Once you have a good lead, Lloyd should be great, as it forces opponents to approach as you want them to. Set it high for characters like Jiggly who want to approach through the air, or low for characters like Mac who want to stay grounded. But, if your opponent has a lead, then it really wouldn't be that hard to dodge till time runs out.

Fair and Bair clank with a surprising number of aerials and smashes, so unless you're playing a character like Marth or Greninja (with which you had a terrible matchup from the start) then it still does a good job at forcing the opponent to play in a way that you can deal with. But you're right when you say it isn't a camping tool.

I'm going to go ahead and say that I was wrong in ragging on Fsmash so much. It will nearly always be your best option for KOing, and I don't mean stage KOs. Like a lot of people have already pointed out, Villager will pretty much always be scoring KOs on offstage opponents, and Fsmash is the safest way to do that for the most part. FFNair is pretty good because of its damage and speed, but it has average priority, so you risk getting nailed by a rising aerial and getting gimped yourself. You can also do Bair to knock opponents into the stage, but that's usually easily techable, which is obviously to their advantage. Even though standard balloon trip really complements offstage gimping, the only times you should be doing so is if the opponent is recovering high.

 

[YAYCONFORMITY]

Well, you're not really trying to get the opponent to approach you in the first place, because like you said,

You don't really need to force people to approach you. Villager can easily outcamp and outspace most characters save for fast, heavy hitters like Greninja, Sheik, Mario, and Pikachu. They HAVE to approach you if they don't want to be taking chip damage from SHFFFairs and Rockets. And I don't mean the Rockets are necessarily going to be hitting, but they're going to either avoid them or detonate them prematurely with their own projectiles, which opens up opportunities for YOU to approach.

Again, I don't think Villager can really outcamp anyone with rockets, and I've already talked about why. Fair and Bair are indeed good spacing tools, although I don't see a lot of useful follow ups and their damage is a bit low if you want to use it full range. Lloyd rocket controls space well, but even then Villager's approach tools are limited.

You definitely have a point when it comes to Fair and Bair's usefulness. Characters shorter than Mario of Mega Man won't be getting hit by the aerials at all except for the end arc, which only deal like 2% so they can shrug it off. And nope, jab doesn't knock opponents away, you've got that right too. But it easily leads into Dtilt, Ftilt, and SHNair. Speaking of which, SHNair is easily your best option to get breathing space, as its hitbubble comes out around F3 and has decent knockback. Dtilt is usually for punishing rolls because of its greater-than-average vertical knockback. Dsmash is very situational and should only be used when you know you're going to pull it off, and even then you should only be using it over other moves at higher percents so you can chase into an Uair. Fsmash should be used exclusively for edgeguarding or something dumb like missed, really laggy specials and smashes.

Does jab have enough hitstun to really combo into anything? I haven't used it much against humans so I don't know. Also not sure about the usefulness on fair. It comes out quick, but I feel like it may leave villager vulnerable to things like shield->utilt. Again, I could be wrong cause I don't know the frame data.

Tree is mostly for stage control. Like you said situations where you're gonna deal damage with it are few and far between.

Pocket is neither better than nor worse than a normal projectile since Villager isn't wanting in that department. It really shines in certain MUs though, specifically Pikachu where you're going to have to watch out for TJolts everywhere that will lead into Usmashes and pop your balloons. Grab is terrible, but at mid percents, its your best tool for setting up KOs because of Bthrows high kbg leading into Fsmash ledgeguards. At higher percents its your go to KO option because of how much knockback its going to be applying. Its a shame grab is so horrendous.

I meant to say a normal reflector. Pocket's pretty useful. While it won't be relevant in competitive play, it's really useful in item matches.

Standard balloon trip is pretty bad, its true, because you are left totally helpless. Depending on the MU you need to make adjustments for where you want to recover from, but you've always got to be cautious. It also doesn't help that acceleration scales really slowly and decays quickly, so if you try and do flight adjustments by holding off on tapping B, chances are you won't be able to recover the altitude you lost and your balloons will either pop or you'll just sink into the blastlines. Lloid rocket should hardly never be used for recovery because of how easily gimpable it is. Iirc you go into helpless unless whatever you collided with passes a certain threshold or something. So opponent hurtbubbles and trees are good, but most projectiles will put you into helpless. There's also the fact that if you get reflected youre pretty much done unless you eject immediately, and even then you're easily punishable. It also doesn't help that if you're reflected while riding, the eventual explosion will hurt you.

Depending on the spacing and the opponent, I'd rather use Lloyd rocket instead of Balloon trip. If you have to recover from really far off, I'd say hitbox is better than no hitbox. Not too many characters have a projectile that could really threaten to hit it off stage, and characters will have to be more cautious in trying to hit you out of it then they would with balloon trip. Also, it reminds me of Dr Strangelove, and that's just fun.

Fair and Bair clank with a surprising number of aerials and smashes, so unless you're playing a character like Marth or Greninja (with which you had a terrible matchup from the start) then it still does a good job at forcing the opponent to play in a way that you can deal with. But you're right when you say it isn't a camping tool.

I'm going to go ahead and say that I was wrong in ragging on Fsmash so much. It will nearly always be your best option for KOing, and I don't mean stage KOs. Like a lot of people have already pointed out, Villager will pretty much always be scoring KOs on offstage opponents, and Fsmash is the safest way to do that for the most part. FFNair is pretty good because of its damage and speed, but it has average priority, so you risk getting nailed by a rising aerial and getting gimped yourself. You can also do Bair to knock opponents into the stage, but that's usually easily techable, which is obviously to their advantage. Even though standard balloon trip really complements offstage gimping, the only times you should be doing so is if the opponent is recovering high.

I think f/bair are much better options for KOing. Knockback is pretty good near the base of the slingshot. Fsmash is a bit too predictable. If they're recovering low, then go for it, but it's situational.

Overall though, Villager is a solid mid-tier character because of the way they can force opponents to maneuver to their advantage. And if custom moves are legal, this will only be compounded by things like the moody sapling and detonating balloons.

I agree with most of what you said, but I don't agree with the conclusion. I think Villager's weaknesses outweigh his strengths by enough to push him to low tier or low mid. I think low tier in this game will be far more viable than it was in Brawl, but I just don't feel villager has a strong moveset.

 

[deepseadiva]

Just thinking about the future of the character, I'm thinking it revolves around tree more than initially imagined. It's just some of the strangest kind of stage control I've seen in this game, and so future Villagers might abuse that.

Slow, methodical peppering of Lloyds behind a built tree that both protects from spam and looms as a HUGE sized potential kill move. Forcing players to work around and within the tree'a space offers a lot.

Pocket also makes Villager very polar... In certain matchups he might be very strong but in others his b move becomes almost worthless.

His edguarding is also something I'm very excited to see evolve. Bair and fair are so long ranged and when his recovery is uninhibited it allows him to go far far farrrrr out for kills.

Initial impressions might be weak, but again, as always, it takes an outstanding player to see where a character can go.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

I've been playing around with Villager for a while now (and yay first post!), and I really like playing as him. I can see him sitting pretty well in mid tier, but he would still give any "top" tier characters a tough match.

My initial impressions:

Uair ends up being a great kill move. The Dair spike is super useful (if you can get it) if not, it KO's at a little above 100% from the edge so it's nice. F/Bair are great moves for edge-guarding, especially if you set up a Lloyd Rocket and then jump and chase with Fair and Dair. Really easy to connect with AT LEAST one of them. SHFair is hard to time, but really useful once you get the hang of it, but I like to use SHDair to bounce and then go into a Utilt/Usmash at low percents.

I thought the Lloyd Rocket in the edge was gonna be super awesome, but it's ended up being hard to pull off in a 1 v. 1, lvl. 9 match. It would be good in a FFA or doubles match. I tend to use it to create some space so I can grab the ledge a little easier if I'm recovering from below (or get a kill if they misread).

The Tree is really useful, because of the stage control options, but it also has GREAT kill potential with the Axe and cutting it down. Even the sprinkler can be good to push people off the stage, though only a little.

Pocket I use every now and then, I just find it's a bit easier to use it for the quick invincibility frames (like a spot-dodge) it gives. Especially if you're falling and someone's trying to juggle you.

Overall, I like him. I don't know if I'll main him, since there's SO MANY characters to try, but as of now he's gonna be mine. Out of the characters in the demo, however, Mario is the only one that gives me any trouble 1v1, lvl. 9. So those up front, fast fighters will be a problem (Little Mac, Greninja, uhhhhhh).