How is Ness's performance in the elements of Brawl?

[DRaGZ]

I'm not updating the original topic yet with Ness, but I really like this so far:

ZONING

* On the ground: Below Average
* In the air: Amazing
* Off-stage: Average

SPACING

* Extreme long distance: Comfortable (PKT)
* Long distance: Bearable
* Medium distance: Uncomfortable
* Short distance: Bearable

KILLING

* Killing power: Average
* Gimping potential: Above average

2+5+3=10/15
3+2+1+2=8/12
3+4=7/10

10+8+7=25/37

You guys could make a write-up for it, or I'll do it myself based on what you guys said given enough time.

Also, I added a separate category called "Survivability" and this is what I gave Ness.

Ness

• Recovery: Ness's recovery is like Lucas's but severely toned down. The lack of a wavebounce gives him less options. His PK Thunder can be stolened to gimp Ness's recovery. Not necessarily the best of time. Rating: Difficult
• Staying Power: He has the same keep-away options as Lucas, but his PK Fire is much more effective and punishing, his PKT is less effective, and his punishment options up-close are a bit more robust. Rating: Intermediate

I'm not claiming it to be gospel, simply what I came up with given my knowledge of Ness. In particular, "Recovery" may be a somewhat biased assessment since I play R.O.B. and it's very easy to steal the thunder as R.O.B. (although I actually do it as Ganny too).

Also, I said "his PKT is less effective". That probably makes some of you guys a bit miffed, eh?

Btw, educate me on the matter: what exactly makes PKT better than PKT2? Is it because PKT2 is slower?

EDIT: Wait a minute, Lucas's PK Thunder is PKT while Ness's PK Thunder is PKT2? Why is Ness 2? He came first!

 

[Levitas]

You've got pkt and pkf mixed up for the staying power.

Punishment options for lucas are more robust than ness, especially up close.


PKT is the bolt form of PK thunder, PKT2 is how we refer to the pkt recovery move/kill move.

 

[DRaGZ]

So how would you rate them, i.e. are the ratings themselves correct?

 

[thesage]

Ness can also use psi magnet for recovery. Again not as useful as Lucas' but he is very floaty.

 

[Gaussis]

I thought he changed the ground game to average. I disagree with the ground game and close range. IMO ground game is average while fighting at close range is comfortable (assuming that close range is the range that his aerials hit). I also disagree with the recovery. PKT can only be stolen if you are already out there trying to eat PKT, and you still has PSI magnet and his DJ to deal with. Put it at intermediate.

I don't believe you played him correctly yet (or got accurate knowledge). PKT is a much better move than PKF. PK fire is best used as a disruptor to an opponent's game. Against experienced players, it sucks. The fire itself sucks, but it's ATs are actually helpful, strange as it may seem.

Levitas, what makes Lucas have more robust options than Ness? I think I'm missing something here.

 

[thesage]

Lucas has pk vidjo (I have no idea what it's called) the pk fire jump, a tether, and a longer range pkt2 that's easier to get hit out of. Only thing he has worse is his dj and faster falling speed.

 

[DRaGZ]

I thought he changed the ground game to average. I disagree with the ground game and close range. IMO ground game is average while fighting at close range is comfortable (assuming that close range is the range that his aerials hit). I also disagree with the recovery. PKT can only be stolen if you are already out there trying to eat PKT, and you still has PSI magnet and his DJ to deal with. Put it at intermediate.

I don't believe you played him correctly yet (or got accurate knowledge). PKT is a much better move than PKF. PK fire is best used as a disruptor to an opponent's game. Against experienced players, it sucks. The fire itself sucks, but it's ATs are actually helpful, strange as it may seem.

Levitas, what makes Lucas have more robust options than Ness? I think I'm missing something here.

Short distance is like right on the character's ***, like right next to him.

Medium distance is the range where things like Ganondorf's f-tilt or R.O.B.'s f-tilt will hit.

Uncomfortable mean the character has very few options that could even really help him out. Bearable means he has options but they're not good enough to put him at an advantage, at best he'll go even at worst he'll have enough to get an opponent off of his back and that's it. Comfortable means he'll have a decisive advantage or have something to gain by being there.

And if an opponent has a mind to, wouldn't he be out there trying to steal PKT every chance he got if he could? I know it's dumb to go out there if you're already lagging behind, but if you knock off Ness near the ledge, then why wouldn't you feasibly jump off with him to pursue him for the Thunder steal?

 

[Gaussis]

Yeah, comfortable. Ness's nair is too good at that range. Medium he has fair...and PK fire. Put it at bearable unless you include the range of close projectile spam under that category.

The thing with the gimp is that a Ness aware of this can uair the opponent and then recover. I'm unfortunately an instinct PKT user and have to stop the habit. I get gimped when I can easily uair. Getting too close is also asking for a footstool.

 

[thesage]

And if an opponent has a mind to, wouldn't he be out there trying to steal PKT every chance he got?

There are much safer and more effective options to edgeguarding Ness outside of stealing his thunder. Esp. with the fact that Ness can use psi magnet to stall now. These things work on all characters though so you can't really count them against Ness.

 

[DRaGZ]

Yeah, comfortable. Ness's nair is too good at that range. Medium he has fair...and PK fire. Put it at bearable unless you include the range of close projectile spam under that category.

The thing with the gimp is that a Ness aware of this can uair the opponent and then recover. I'm unfortunately an instinct PKT user and have to stop the habit. I get gimped when I can easily uair. Getting too close is also asking for a footstool.

The first paragraph sounds good and very reasonable.

The second point, what if I just wait for you to bring out PKT and then just go inside your body as you do it? That's what I do with R.O.B., and it's predictable enough when you'll do it because there's only so far you can drift.

There are much safer and more effective options to edgeguarding Ness outside of stealing his thunder. Esp. with the fact that Ness can use psi magnet to stall now. These things work on all characters though so you can't really count them against Ness.

What things work on all characters that I shouldn't count against Ness? (i.e. I am confused by what you mean)

 

[Gaussis]

I'm not understanding what you mean, but are you asking for a PKT2? If your damage is low enough, then go ahead. Otherwise, it's suicide (for you and Ness).

If you want to go for the head, then forget it. There's a strict timing if they are doing the recovery correctly. Otherwise, you'll eat the tail, then PKT2. But you play ROB, so most of that doesn't matter since ROB can float for what seems an eternity offstage.

 

[thesage]

Projectiles. Grabbing the ledge. Punishing his recovery move. If Ness still has his jump. He'll probably make back to the stage. His pkt2 is what's his problem. So if he's forced to pkt2 offstage (horizontally) then he's screwed.

 

[DRaGZ]

I'm not understanding what you mean, but are you asking for a PKT2? If your damage is low enough, then go ahead. Otherwise, it's suicide (for you and Ness).

If you want to go for the head, then forget it. There's a strict timing if they are doing the recovery correctly. Otherwise, you'll eat the tail, then PKT2. But you play ROB, so most of that doesn't matter since ROB can float for what seems an eternity offstage.

Well, I suppose R.O.B. and Ganondorf are fairly large enough for me to do this consistently...

So you believe Ness should be intermediate. +1

And then close range at comfortable while medium is at bearable. +2

And then ground game as Average. You haven't explained this yet. I honestly don't think his ground game is that great...but then again, you're the expert, not me. I'm just the idiot that thought PKF was better than PKT.

EDIT: You mention "put medium range as bearable unless you count projectile spam at that range". What does thou mean, i.e. do you think that'll make it better or worse and do you mean Ness's projectile spam or other character's projectile spam?

 

[Gaussis]

I'll start with something I said earlier.

I disagree with a few of these. I would say his ground game is average. Good priority, gets opponents in the air, spaces well.

I'll add to this. He has decent range on the ground. Yo-yos are incorporated defensive moves. Ftilt and utilt keep opponents away from him, especially utilit. However, it's most important aspect is that it moves the opponent to the air, where his better options are.

So all in all, it does what it does: puts the opponent in the air and keeps him/her in the air if they approach Ness.

 

[DRaGZ]

I'll start with something I said earlier.



I'll add to this. He has decent range on the ground. Yo-yos are incorporated defensive moves. Ftilt and utilt keep opponents away from him, especially utilit. However, it's most important aspect is that it moves the opponent to the air, where his better options are.

So all in all, it does what it does: puts the opponent in the air and keeps him/her in the air if they approach Ness.

Then I would say below average. The key here is that Ness seems to be unable to rely on his ground game to be effective; it's all in the air. If his ground game is just used as a way of getting people into the air and isn't generally being used a possible alternative strategy, then I think it's below average.

Just to compare, R.O.B. has great options on the floor which lets him sit there for a long time comfortably, including his d-smash, d-tilt, and f-tilt, yet he's still just Average. Ganondorf's entire game is based on his extremely powerful ground attacks, yet he's still just Average. Game and Watch's has some of the fastest and most brutal smashes in the game, enough to hold his own without his air game, but he's still just Average.

If Ness can't actually depend on his ground game as a decent alternative to his air game, then I can't say it's Average.

Also, I have fixed his recovery to "intermediate" in the OP.

 

[Gaussis]

I can't really say why it is average. It is entirely possible to not rely on his aerials and use only his ground game. The way he plays makes it very difficult to define it. Most players choose aerials over his ground moves because they give Ness much mobility. However, his ground game has several considerable points:
-Ftilt is killer against many projectiles. It even beats Lucas's PK fire (which has strict timing, but it is reasonably doable). You can literally approach characters with projectiles using this move.
-Usmash Yo-yo is used as a mindgame on shields. Ness can wait out on an opponent until he rolls, drops his shield, or lets it wear out. Yo-yos also punish rollers.
-Utilt outranges many characters coming down on him, but I guess it counts for keeping them in the air, so it can be disregarded.

Take this as you will. I can't really give examples through text as it is something you really have to see for yourself.

 

[DRaGZ]

I can't really say why it is average. It is entirely possible to not rely on his aerials and use only his ground game. The way he plays makes it very difficult to define it. Most players choose aerials over his ground moves because they give Ness much mobility. However, his ground game has several considerable points:
-Ftilt is killer against many projectiles. It even beats Lucas's PK fire (which has strict timing, but it is reasonably doable). You can literally approach characters with projectiles using this move.
-Usmash Yo-yo is used as a mindgame on shields. Ness can wait out on an opponent until he rolls, drops his shield, or lets it wear out. Yo-yos also punish rollers.
-Utilt outranges many characters coming down on him, but I guess it counts for keeping them in the air, so it can be disregarded.

Take this as you will. I can't really give examples through text as it is something you really have to see for yourself.

Oh, I've faced Ness enough to know what he's capable of on the ground. It's weak enough for me, as R.O.B., to wait for him to approach (since I can just laser him if he PKTs), have him finish his aerials junk as I shield/powershield (he's gotta land sometime), and then just grab him/punish him. If he tries anything on the ground, I have an answer for literally everything he does so that I remain unscathed and he's all sad.

And I have come to realize side-dodging Ness is a bad move due to his PKT and his yo-yo. I always powershield now.

 

[Gaussis]

It works better on some characters than others. ROB is more PKT prone. If the Ness is smart, he will use it where you can't laser him (like above you or above the 35 degree angle, I forget, that he angles his laser). ROB is very poor at shielding PKT because scraping the edges of the shield will almost always guarantee a hit.

But we're not discussing that now. Less defensive characters tend to get more and more affected by his ground game. It's almost like comparing ROB's projectile game vs TL.

 

[DRaGZ]

I have one last question, and it's somewhat related to Lucas.

I think I remember Simna saying before that Ness's PKT is much better than Lucas's PKT and that Ness's works much better at long distances that Lucas's. I think this is why Ness's Extreme Long Distance rating is comfortable here while Lucas's is Bearable.

But I need to understand why so I can justify it in the OP. Why is Ness's PKT so much better?

 

[_clinton]

Oh, I've faced Ness enough to know what he's capable of on the ground. It's weak enough for me, as R.O.B., to wait for him to approach (since I can just laser him if he PKTs), have him finish his aerials junk as I shield/powershield (he's gotta land sometime), and then just grab him/punish him. If he tries anything on the ground, I have an answer for literally everything he does so that I remain unscathed and he's all sad.

And I have come to realize side-dodging Ness is a bad move due to his PKT and his yo-yo. I always powershield now.

Ness doesn't have to approach that much...for the most part Ness can duck under ROB's Laser Unangled...however ROB will just charge his top I guess if he does that...still...bat on top...actually...Ness can also duck under ROB's Fsmash if you don't angle it...

Of course ATM I'm not really in the mood to talk about Ness vs. ROB...but whatever

I have one last question, and it's somewhat related to Lucas.

I think I remember Simna saying before that Ness's PKT is much better than Lucas's PKT and that Ness's works much better at long distances that Lucas's. I think this is why Ness's Extreme Long Distance rating is comfortable here while Lucas's is Bearable.

But I need to understand why so I can justify it in the OP. Why is Ness's PKT so much better?

Ness' PKT comes out faster, and travels faster for one thing...personally I like both of their PK thunders...Ness has less ending lag as well...

And Lucas should be comfortable in ELR as well...I mean his magnet is better then Ness' for one thing...and I mean he has like 20 or so tricks he can use with his specials...for example...PK Freeze can travel the entire distance of FD if used right for one thing...but PK fire for the win...

 

[Gaussis]

I have one last question, and it's somewhat related to Lucas.

I think I remember Simna saying before that Ness's PKT is much better than Lucas's PKT and that Ness's works much better at long distances that Lucas's. I think this is why Ness's Extreme Long Distance rating is comfortable here while Lucas's is Bearable.

But I need to understand why so I can justify it in the OP. Why is Ness's PKT so much better?

Tail. Nuff said.

On a more serious note, these are the reasons I believe Ness's PKT is much better than Lucas's:
-It's faster
-Tail is much longer, as said above
-Can be pulled towards Ness faster
-Cancelling PKT is only a matter of hitting something, whereas Lucas is screwed if he misses

I like both PKT, but I believe Lucas's better serves edgeguarding purposes (stage spiking FTW).

 

[_clinton]

Tail. Nuff said.

Ok...lol I guess I forgot about the tail...

Still TC...what is the final score?

 

[DRaGZ]

Uhm, the final score is what you guys gave him. >_>

God, I need to get some time on my hands so I can update this thing, lol.

 

[_clinton]

Uhm, the final score is what you guys gave him. >_>

But Ness' don't agree on anything ^_^

I mean...I for one like his ground game because it is faster then his air game for moves...and has pretty good tricks as well...but still...

 

[Earthbound360]

Ness ground game is underrated. Its not bad by any means.

 

[_clinton]

Ness ground game is underrated. Its not bad by any means.

I <3 you EB360, Thank you ^_^