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How is Mario's performance in the elements of Brawl?

Matt07

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This is quoted from DRaGZ, I just edited some parts out. I'm just helping him by posting it in the Mario boards for him.

Okay first off, please read this:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199108

Use this thread to discuss it, and then please post your results in the "Element of Brawl" thread linked above, using this format:

ZONING
On the ground: Average
In the air: Above Average
Off-stage: Above Average

SPACING
Extreme long distance: Bearable
Long distance: Bearable
Medium distance : Uncomfortable
Short distance: Comfortable

KILLING
Killing power: Average
Gimping potential: Above Average

SURVIVABILITY
Recovery:
Staying Power:

Ratings: Easy, Intermediate, Difficult


Thanks a bunch.
 

Matt07

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Sorry for the double post guys, but I think it's needed.

Zoning.

Tilts;

On the Ground: Mario isn't really too strong on the ground, the only tilts he has his utilt (which is only good till around 40% on certain characters) and Forward tilt. I think Mario's ftilt is really good for knocking characters back, and you want some 'breathing' room. His utilt as said as before is good for racking up damage, and his dtilt? Well err :urg: it's not really useful for anything.
Jab;

His jabs come out pretty good, but his last hit doesn't really do much knock-back.His stutter-stepped Fsmash has really good range, and does good damage.

Smashes;

His down smash is quick and reliable, it's also good for knocking away characters (as long as it's not too 'stale'.) His usmash is okay for vertical knockback. His reverse upsmash has a bigger hitbox, so it's pretty decent.

Special Moves;

His Fireball is not too bad for a projectile, but it's not really that good when you use it when your standing on the ground, it travels less distance, and you can get punished way easier when using a fireball on the ground. The Cape is really good for reversing opponents around, and punishing. It can also reflect projectiles on the ground, cape glide, etc. Mario's Cape is really good when used on the Ground (I find.) Mario's FLUUD is ok, the ending lag can be punished, but it causes characters like G&W to lag with aerials, so you can punish them. Super Jump Punch is good for Out of Shield options, due to it's invicibility frames and has good knockback, but if you miss you can get severly punished. This is also good for helping Mario keep spacing, during the match.

All in all: In my opinion, Mario isn't too good on the ground.

Ugh, that took a while to type :laugh:.
 

BlueJx23

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shouldn't Mario's grab be included in his ground game, or does that get it's own category?
 

HeroMystic

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ZONING

On the ground: Mario can do some ground work. However, his lack of range hinders him on keeping up with a ground-based battle, as there are a large number of characters that out range him. Essentially, if Mario is on the ground, he would want to go in the air as quick as possible. U-tilt, U-Smash, and D-throw will often be used to get the job done. Average

In the air: It's not a surprise for a character like Mario to have all of his excellent moves in the air. When it comes to an air battle, Mario is a smooth character that seems to have a flow that makes all his moves land nicely and consistently. Mario does have the ability to keep his opponent in the air, and if his opponent is on the ground, it's not a surprise if the plumber does short-hop aerials to make up for his ground game. However, the lack of consistency requires Mario to "reset" his combos, allowing his opponent the opportunity to easily shift momentum. Above Average

Off-Stage: Mario ranks very high on being one of the best gimpers. FLUDD, a Semi-WOP, a fresh aerial can often seal the deal for the KO, and lastly, the most feared move from his arsenal, the Cape. Take that along with being somewhat floaty, a middleweight, and his great air game; he can last quite long off-stage. But some day, he has to get back onto the stage, and that's where his recovery can be pretty hindering since Super Jump Punch lacks that distance needed to make it back to the stage. Above Average

SPACING

Extreme Long Distance: Not the best place to be at. Many projectiles reflected by Mario often die out, still leaving him vulnerable. Fireballs are too slow to help. He can however, reflect projectiles to allow him to get closer, and simply jump over them. Bearable

Long Distance: Better than the extreme, but still not good enough. At this point however, he can reflect projectiles consistently and also use fireballs for approaching. Bearable

Medium Distance: Ironically, this is where things get hard as Mario can be easily spaced back into long distance due to the lack of range. Projectiles reflecting starts to be relied on prediction, and Mario does not have any long range moves. The best he has are fireballs, which are slow. Uncomfortable

Close Range: Once he's up in your face, this is where Mario starts to wreck havoc. All of his abilities are available, and he can start his usually long string of attacks here. Comfortable

KILLING

Killing Power: Often depends on what position Mario and his opponent is. F-Smash is a great kill move if fresh. D-Smash if hit from the feet can send the opponent below the stage and quite possibly kill if at a high enough percentage, and U-Smash is a surprisingly good kill move. However, it's rather hard to outright KO heavy characters with Mario. Average

Gimping Potential: When someone says Mario, people thinks of the Cape. Only Pit's Shield can mildly perform what the cape can do. There's also FLUDD and his aerials. However, this is hindered by the fact that Mario can't stay off-stage for extended periods of time due to the lack of distance required for his mediocre recovery. Above Average

---

That's what I came up with. By the way, who else thinks that their some of the characters on that list (Metaknight and Snake in particular) are particularly flawed? Metaknight isn't amazing and comfortable at everything.
 

Matt07

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Yea, HeroMystic is pretty much on the dot. If anyone else anything else to add, please do. I will probably post this in DRaGZ thread later today.
 

mikybee93

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That's interesting, I'm a lot better on the ground than I am in the air with Mario.
Half the time it's because I can't seem to land his meteor smash though, so I can definitely see what you mean. But a cape -> throw combo with 100% = death most of the time. (And i do that on the ground)

Also, I clear ground fast with Mario's rolling, so the range barely applies to me, and the people i play against aren't ranged chars either, so i don't have a proper say.
 

HeroMystic

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That's interesting, I'm a lot better on the ground than I am in the air with Mario.
Half the time it's because I can't seem to land his meteor smash though, so I can definitely see what you mean. But a cape -> throw combo with 100% = death most of the time. (And i do that on the ground)
You don't go meteor smashing your opponent all day. Mario's F-air is too obvious to be used that much. You mix it up with cape, FLUDD, B-air and U-air.

And I'd like to see this Cape > Throw combo.

Also, I clear ground fast with Mario's rolling, so the range barely applies to me, and the people i play against aren't ranged chars either, so i don't have a proper say.
Rolling into the opponent gets you punished, especially if that's your main way of approaching. Mario's best approach mechanism is fireballs. The secondary approach method is Short-hopped B-airs.

Btw, if you weren't new, I'd totally get on your case on how you think Mario's ground game is better. Statistics alone show that Mario's aerial game is 3x better than his ground game. I recommend that you go to the Mario video section and watch some matches.
 

J-Prep

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Btw, if you weren't new, I'd totally get on your case on how you think Mario's ground game is better. Statistics alone show that Mario's aerial game is 3x better than his ground game. I recommend that you go to the Mario video section and watch some matches.
haha mystic is getting a lil personal there huh?
but nice job getting the gist of what mario can/can't do down.

p.s.

we need to play =]
 

HeroMystic

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haha mystic is getting a lil personal there huh?
but nice job getting the gist of what mario can/can't do down.

p.s.

we need to play =]
I just don't like it when people fresh out of the box think they know what they're talking about, but I do try to be helpful. :p

Sadly internet at college sucks big time, so playing online is not really an option when WiFi sucks as it is. >_>

Btw, glad to hear I was accurate on Mario's points. :)
 

mikybee93

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Just to let you know, that was my own personal opinion, i know that i'm wrong half the time, and thank you very much for answering my questions.
 

Judge Judy

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Just to add some input.

On the ground: Mario is quick on the ground and has good priority but only his Fsmash and the F.L.U.D.D. have good reach. His Dsmash is very fast and his other smashes are fairly quick. His Ftilt has good priority, is very quick, and has IASA frames but has limited reach. His Utilt can juggle well, and has good vertical reach but poor horizontal reach. His Dtilt can juggle decently but is very punishable compared to his other tilts. Mario doesn't much trouble against campers/spammers and can approach well. Mario's jab also leads into grabs and the cape is still ****. FIHL gives Mario a very good ground defense but also is very good at spacing. Rating: Average
 

mario brawler

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Playing Brawl until I have a seizure,nah im kiddin
lol yea hero,no need to bring out the stats and such XD any who,right now im too lazy to read this page seeing how much info is on it o.O ,but I did read your post and it looks good,finally we have a thread about technical skill and stats rather than questions and opinions
you pretty much said it all,wanna add anything about mario jab game in there? his jab cnacel > grab,D smash ect. boost's his ground game
 

Matt07

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Alright, updated the first post with the 'rank' of each spot. Whenever someone can, they can summarize the information and add it to his thread.
 

BoTastic!

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Mario's Fsmash is surprisingly strong when kept fresh. What section will cover Mario's defense game? I think his defense game is pretty good.
 

Matt07

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Hmm, this is the only sections DRaGZ, gave us. But I think the Spacing sections seems about the same as defensive.
 

HeroMystic

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Not entire. A defensive game does not fully rely on spacing, especially for Mario's case.

DRaGZ is however considering adding on a surviability section.
 

Matador

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There's going to be soooo much debate on this in the thread. SWF can't even agree on recoveries, where there's a sort of standard.

When Amazing for one character =/= amazing for another character, there's a problem.
 

HeroMystic

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That's why we shouldn't really debate in comparison of other characters, but we must look at Mario for what he can bring to fight. The fact of the matter is that people like to compare things when there are times when they don't need to be.

In any case, it seems as if we're in a unanimous agreement here?
 

Matt07

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That's why we shouldn't really debate in comparison of other characters, but we must look at Mario for what he can bring to fight. The fact of the matter is that people like to compare things when there are times when they don't need to be.

In any case, it seems as if we're in a unanimous agreement here?
Yea, it seems we're pretty clear on Mario's Performance in Brawl. This is ready to go to DraGZ thread now, I think.
 

BoTastic!

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I wouldn't say Mario's In the air is amazing. Mk's in the air is amazing. Mario should be above average for that one. Also gimping Potential above average. Thats puting Mario on the same level as MK when you put amazing.
 

HeroMystic

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Well, we're gonna have to put negatives in to make it sound 'above average-y'. Saying it's not good enough won't exactly work for an analysis.
 

BoTastic!

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Well compared to Mk's priority, multi jumps, and attacks faster than mario's... I think mario fits with above average.
 

HeroMystic

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Bump.

DRaGZ added Survivability.

Survivability

* Recovery: How easily a character can recover after being knocked away but not killed. This doesn't simply include how far a character can recover from, but also how well they perform in a battle situation.
* Staying Power: How easily a character can survive while in his/her/its kill percentages. This not only includes a character's weight/falling speed/etc. but also the options a character can do to prevent himself from being killed by keeping the opponent away or punishing a failed approach.


Ratings: Easy, Intermediate, Difficult

The ratings are based on the assumption that the character's built-in survival mechanisms have been sufficiently mastered by a player. It also specifically rates how easy it is for a character to recover/stay alive while in kill percentage.
 

Matt07

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Here's my opinion.

Recovery: Mario can recover from pretty far if he still has his double jump, which is why we have to be careful we don't waste it. Mario's recovery is predictable, but he can use Fireballs, to annoy or delay the opponent's edgeguarding. I'd have to go with Intermediate

Staying Power: Mario can live too around 120%-150% at most, but that really depends on the character they're using, and how stale they're smashes are, etc. I'd have to rate this as an Intermediate as well.

Thanks, HeroMystic, I will update new post with those two sections.
 

BoTastic!

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I agree with your post Matt.

Mario can also recover surprising vertical distance and his Up B sweetspots the ledge well. The problem is its even more predictable for ledge hogs.

When recovering Horizontally, Mario isn't that easy to gimp. He can protect him self with fireballs, cape, Fludd, and even Fair.

Mario can live up to 150% depending on DI and the character he's facing.
 
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