How important is Sheilda (will Shielda be Zelda's downfall)?

[ThreeSided]

This is just a port over of a thread I made on the Sheik boards recently that is just about as important to you guys as it is to us. While the focus is on Sheik, everything said also applies to Zelda. Summary in the quote below.

Link: http://smashboards.com/threads/how-important-is-sheilda-will-shielda-be-sheiks-downfall.350623/

I'd recommend commenting on the original thread since the conversation is really one for all of us. If the mods don't mind, I'd say just bump this thread if you make a comment on the original just to make sure this keeps the attention of Zelda mains as appropriate.

I'm a Sheik player with a simple problem: I don't want to play Zelda. So my question is, how important is learning Zelda to my success as Sheik? While I understand that Sheik is a good character by herself, the question of whether she is still going to be fully viable down the road is of issue to me.

Hear me out.

From a casual perspective, it may seem perfectly fine to rate Zelda and Sheik individually as characters. However, from a competitive perspective, this is not possible. They are, essentially, the same character with two different "modes". This adds tons of versatility to the character, and - feel free to dispute my logic in this, because I'd love to be wrong - is something that must be taken into consideration when re-balancing occurs. Right now, PM Zelda is still fresh and relatively unlearned compared to veteran Sheik, and, as a consequence, so is PM Sheilda. But as players get better, Sheilda is naturally going to become an extremely powerful character. Both Sheik and Zelda are often argued to be higher tier on their own in this game. It only makes sense that having the ability to use both in the same game would make them even better. Given time, the PMBR is going to be forced to nerf both Sheik and Zelda just to keep Shielda on par with everyone else, and the result is going to be that, as individual characters, they won't be very good.

This obviously won't be a problem for those who are fine with playing Sheilda, but for those like me who don't want to play Zelda (she's played by every other person in our friend group and I'm sick of her) or those who don't want to play Sheik, it just feels like the low tier issues from the other games all over again. I'd rather not have to pick between playing the character I want and winning! (Oh, the irony!)

So I suppose this comes down to two questions for discussion:

Is playing Sheilda necessary to do well as Sheik or Zelda in the current environment?

If not, then will Sheilda result in the nerfing of Sheik and Zelda down the road in such a way that will make them potentially mediocre/nonviable, or is this a logical fallacy?

 

[Garde Noir]

Sheilda is a completely different animal than Zelda, and than Sheik for that matter.

The simple answer is, if you want to be a Sheik player, go for it.

The more complex answer is to follow.
A Sheilda Player (of which I consider myself to be to a degree) can switch comfortably between Sheik and Zelda, and use each of their assets to their advantage, as well as cover each weakness with the others strength. This, of course, is incredibly complicated, because knowing two characters percentages, hitboxes and combos isn't what most players want to do. 1 character matchup is hard enough to learn, two simultaneously is just plain difficult.
Then there's the obvious flaw-- transformation lag. Transform can be incredibly punishable against strong characters, and with Zelda being a Glass Cannon and Sheik not being heavy in her own right, this can be counterproductive.

However, when you get to a certain level, one where mind games are prevalent and real: having a counterpick character mid-match can sway the game back into your momentum. Transform has invisibility frames too, so I've used it to avoid a punish. Sheik is also very fast, and can rack up damage quickly, but is predictable on the kill moves, which can be easily avoided with proper anticipation. I know because I main Sheik in Melee.

Zelda, however, has different combos, with killing percentages that tend to be much lower than Sheik's. While Sheik plays mainly Grounded, Zelda has a great Air Game, and incredible recovery. She has traps like Din's Fire (which is now a mine) and a whole horde of different match-ups. Link is a Zelda mains worst matchup. Sheiks don't mind him at all. I as a Sheik hate Fox. Zelda mains have a little trouble, but can usually put Fox in his place.

They also have different stage preferences, giving you a better option no matter where you pick, or get counterpicked.

I say, get to know your other half, at least a little. Throw a couple practice games against your friends seeing what it feels like transforming. See their reaction, and how their playstyle changes. See how your changes.

But to answer your obvious question. No. Sheilda will not be Zelda's downfall
Just like it won't be Sheik's downfall..

Sheilda is a different character alltogether.
one that you can't pick, and at you can choose not to use.

I typically start my matches as a sheik to rank up an easy 30 or 40 percent before changing, for low percentage kills with moves they aren't expecting.

Think about trying that

 

[ThreeSided]

...

However, when you get to a certain level, one where mind games are prevalent and real: having a counterpick character mid-match can sway the game back into your momentum. Transform has invisibility frames too, so I've used it to avoid a punish. Sheik is also very fast, and can rack up damage quickly, but is predictable on the kill moves, which can be easily avoided with proper anticipation. I know because I main Sheik in Melee.

Zelda, however, has different combos, with killing percentages that tend to be much lower than Sheik's. While Sheik plays mainly Grounded, Zelda has a great Air Game, and incredible recovery. She has traps like Din's Fire (which is now a mine) and a whole horde of different match-ups. Link is a Zelda mains worst matchup. Sheiks don't mind him at all. I as a Sheik hate Fox. Zelda mains have a little trouble, but can usually put Fox in his place.

They also have different stage preferences, giving you a better option no matter where you pick, or get counterpicked.

...

But to answer your obvious question. No. Sheilda will not be Zelda's downfall
Just like it won't be Sheik's downfall..

...

I typically start my matches as a sheik to rank up an easy 30 or 40 percent before changing, for low percentage kills with moves they aren't expecting.

Think about trying that

I think you might be missing my logic. You've claimed that Sheilda is a different animal, but everything you've said that makes her different is what makes her better than either character on her own. Transformation may have lag, but there are always opportunities to take advantage of, whether it's between stocks (either player), while the opponent is recovering, or just a strategic mindgame. You may lose an opportunity for positioning, gimping or followup in the process, but it's an option, and taking any character and giving them +1 option immediately makes them an objectively better character. The question is how much of a difference that option makes. As you've pointed out, Sheilda is a big deal. The options she provides are large. The reason it's not making much of a difference now is that, as you've pointed out, Sheilda is quite difficult to play due to essentially having to learn two characters. But as people get better with her, this difference will become more pronounced, and suddenly Sheilda will be significantly better than Sheik or Zelda individually. The reality is that, with the way the transformations currently work, there's no way to balance Sheilda without changing Sheik and/or Zelda. We already know that both Sheik and Zelda are good characters, so just imagine how good Sheilda will be. The reality is that, in order to keep the game effectively balanced, the PMBR is going to have to balance these characters with only Sheilda in mind. The result will be that Sheik and Zelda will most likely, in later iterations of the game, never be anywhere beyond mid tier, and quite possibly lower.

Of course, this assumes that the PMBR doesn't think of something else creative to fix this problem. The only thing that I can think of is to make Sheik and Zelda more similar in assets, thus decreasing the usefulness of transformation and nerfing Sheilda without decreasing the viability of the other two, but that removes much of the appeal of the character(s).

 

[Garde Noir]

I think you might be missing my logic. You've claimed that Sheilda is a different animal, but everything you've said that makes her different is what makes her better than either character on her own. Transformation may have lag, but there are always opportunities to take advantage of, whether it's between stocks (either player), while the opponent is recovering, or just a strategic mindgame. You may lose an opportunity for positioning, gimping or followup in the process, but it's an option, and taking any character and giving them +1 option immediately makes them an objectively better character. The question is how much of a difference that option makes. As you've pointed out, Sheilda is a big deal. The options she provides are large. The reason it's not making much of a difference now is that, as you've pointed out, Sheilda is quite difficult to play due to essentially having to learn two characters. But as people get better with her, this difference will become more pronounced, and suddenly Sheilda will be significantly better than Sheik or Zelda individually. The reality is that, with the way the transformations currently work, there's no way to balance Sheilda without changing Sheik and/or Zelda. We already know that both Sheik and Zelda are good characters, so just imagine how good Sheilda will be. The reality is that, in order to keep the game effectively balanced, the PMBR is going to have to balance these characters with only Sheilda in mind. The result will be that Sheik and Zelda will most likely, in later iterations of the game, never be anywhere beyond mid tier, and quite possibly lower.

Of course, this assumes that the PMBR doesn't think of something else creative to fix this problem. The only thing that I can think of is to make Sheik and Zelda more similar in assets, thus decreasing the usefulness of transformation and nerfing Sheilda without decreasing the viability of the other two, but that removes much of the appeal of the character(s).

I pointed out only the benefits because anyone playing Sheilda for the first time coming from only one as their main will find the downsides themselves.

I don't see PMBR changing in mind with Sheilda, which is why they made two separate character icons in the selection screen. However, as they have notified us, they do not plan on fully separating the characters.

I just see Sheilda as a different way to play Zelda/Sheik. Like playing a defensive Wario in doubles as opposed to an offensive one. Or playing a camping metaknight as opposed to an aggro. It's a style, but one without comparison.

I think it's fair to ask PMBR to consider Sheilda, but not to think of her as the reason people use Zelda/Sheik, because as you pointed out, Changing does ruin some key opportunities.

Whether Sheilda will be higher or lower than Zelda or Sheik, I can't say. Tiers are more determined by the people who play the characters. If good players of Sheik or Zelda decide they do better sticking to one character, then that character will stay individually good, and go higher on the board, not necessarily bring the adjoining character up with it, because to some people, having the other character is a liability-- like kirby's powers. Absorbing a power loses gimp opportunities to bring about a new special that changes per person. It's a different play style, and you can't rank playstyles, really. Otherwise we'd have to rank things like "Diddy with no Banana's" or "Kirby no Powers" as separate entities.

Maybe we're thinking of Sheilda is two different things

and maybe that's what makes her such a pocket beast. That two edged sword, that no one really knows how to use her, so no one knows how to battle against her. But no one can use her a "right way" in the first place.

Food for thought, especially for me.

 

[ThreeSided]

I pointed out only the benefits because anyone playing Sheilda for the first time coming from only one as their main will find the downsides themselves.

I don't see PMBR changing in mind with Sheilda, which is why they made two separate character icons in the selection screen. However, as they have notified us, they do not plan on fully separating the characters.

I just see Sheilda as a different way to play Zelda/Sheik. Like playing a defensive Wario in doubles as opposed to an offensive one. Or playing a camping metaknight as opposed to an aggro. It's a style, but one without comparison.

I think it's fair to ask PMBR to consider Sheilda, but not to think of her as the reason people use Zelda/Sheik, because as you pointed out, Changing does ruin some key opportunities.

Whether Sheilda will be higher or lower than Zelda or Sheik, I can't say. Tiers are more determined by the people who play the characters. If good players of Sheik or Zelda decide they do better sticking to one character, then that character will stay individually good, and go higher on the board, not necessarily bring the adjoining character up with it, because to some people, having the other character is a liability-- like kirby's powers. Absorbing a power loses gimp opportunities to bring about a new special that changes per person. It's a different play style, and you can't rank playstyles, really. Otherwise we'd have to rank things like "Diddy with no Banana's" or "Kirby no Powers" as separate entities.

Maybe we're thinking of Sheilda is two different things

and maybe that's what makes her such a pocket beast. That two edged sword, that no one really knows how to use her, so no one knows how to battle against her. But no one can use her a "right way" in the first place.

Food for thought, especially for me.

Sheilda is better than Sheik or Zelda alone. As I said earlier, if you take any character and give them one more option while keeping everything else the same, the character becomes objectively better. Of course how you play the character matters, but that goes for any character. The question is really only how much better Sheilda is. If it turns out to be a lot, it could be a problem.

You may see it as just a different play style with different strengths and weaknesses, but it's not. How you choose to play Sheilda - that is, when you switch back and forth, how often and how you play the individual characters and in what situations - is the play style. Sheilda can't be looked at as a play style. If you want to get really technical about it, the only character here is Sheilda and the playstyle is what determines how much you switch between the two, whether it be little, often, or not at all. If you have a character with two different good modes and you're only using one of them, you're denying yourself of options. That puts you at a disadvantage, period. The only question is, how much of one? As I said, it's not much right now, but it might turn out to be in the future.

 

[Garde Noir]

Is this the end of Sheilda for Project M?
With Smash 4 revealing the end of the canon transformation, there is an argument that this will not happen again.
However, Brawl is a generation earlier than 4, and the PMBR isn't dictated by the rules of Sakurai.

 

[~@~Tilde~@~]

Sheilda is a completely different animal than Zelda, and than Sheik for that matter.

The simple answer is, if you want to be a Sheik player, go for it.

The more complex answer is to follow.
A Sheilda Player (of which I consider myself to be to a degree) can switch comfortably between Sheik and Zelda, and use each of their assets to their advantage, as well as cover each weakness with the others strength. This, of course, is incredibly complicated, because knowing two characters percentages, hitboxes and combos isn't what most players want to do. 1 character matchup is hard enough to learn, two simultaneously is just plain difficult.
Then there's the obvious flaw-- transformation lag. Transform can be incredibly punishable against strong characters, and with Zelda being a Glass Cannon and Sheik not being heavy in her own right, this can be counterproductive.

However, when you get to a certain level, one where mind games are prevalent and real: having a counterpick character mid-match can sway the game back into your momentum. Transform has invisibility frames too, so I've used it to avoid a punish. Sheik is also very fast, and can rack up damage quickly, but is predictable on the kill moves, which can be easily avoided with proper anticipation. I know because I main Sheik in Melee.

Zelda, however, has different combos, with killing percentages that tend to be much lower than Sheik's. While Sheik plays mainly Grounded, Zelda has a great Air Game, and incredible recovery. She has traps like Din's Fire (which is now a mine) and a whole horde of different match-ups. Link is a Zelda mains worst matchup. Sheiks don't mind him at all. I as a Sheik hate Fox. Zelda mains have a little trouble, but can usually put Fox in his place.

They also have different stage preferences, giving you a better option no matter where you pick, or get counterpicked.

I say, get to know your other half, at least a little. Throw a couple practice games against your friends seeing what it feels like transforming. See their reaction, and how their playstyle changes. See how your changes.

But to answer your obvious question. No. Sheilda will not be Zelda's downfall
Just like it won't be Sheik's downfall..

Sheilda is a different character alltogether.
one that you can't pick, and at you can choose not to use.

I typically start my matches as a sheik to rank up an easy 30 or 40 percent before changing, for low percentage kills with moves they aren't expecting.

Think about trying that

Could you elaborate on how Transform works?

 

[Deleted member]

Sheilda should no longer, in my opinion, be a thing. I'm honestly surprised transform hasn't already been removed from Zelda/Sheik and replaced with other special moves seeing as how 1) they're separated on the roster, and 2) the same was done for the Pokemon belonging to Pokemon Trainer, aaand 3) now that we've seen that the future of Smash has no place for transforming characters.

In many ways Project M is ahead of the game, but in this regard they are behind the times.

 

[4tlas]

EDIT: I made a post, but Smashboards dropped it. I might not make total sense this time, as I'm trying to remember what I said before, so please excuse me.


I completely disagree. I am a Sheilda main, and I would be devastated if they took out transform. It is a unique mechanic and as far as I'm concerned makes Zelda/Sheik unique by itself.

In regards to whether the existence of Sheilda will result in Sheik and Zelda having to be individually nerfed, I don't think so. Naturally, if each character alone were to be on par with the rest of the cast, allowing them to change the matchup would make them unable to be counterpicked. However, it is extremely difficult if not impossible to balance the game with the concept of counterpicking regardless, as it makes consistent even matchups (can't be counterpicked) more important that an average good matchup spread with a few counters.

Fortunately, Sheik's matchups are fairly even and Zelda's good matchups are only slightly good, so this lack of counterpickability is not a huge problem.