How does skill improve in comparison to others?

[Big Daddy Josh]

The way I see it all players are on a level playing field. Assuming you have access to all the same videos, guides, streams, and go to the same amount of tournaments, how does a player improve? or even notice improvement?

For example:

Let's say player A started playing January of this year, and for the past 7 months he's been reading threads on his character, watching videos, and practicing his basic techniques and getting his advanced techniques as well. During the last 3-4 months he's been going to local tournaments and doing just about as well as you'd expect, losing his first set in winners and 2nd set in losers, sometimes getting to 2nd round losers.

Player B has been playing significantly longer 1-2 years and goes to the same tournaments and practices the same amount as player A. Player B is better than Player A and has beaten him in tournament and places better than him consistently.

So back to my question; factoring in all the players that play Melee, how is it even possible for players to reach/surpass other players in skill if both players play consistently? How could someone who picked the game very recently ever reach the skill level of someone like M2K who has been playing the game for so long?

Is there a pinnacle of the maximum amount of skill you can have? I know obviously the best is perfection which no human can ever accomplish, but how can players improve themselves if everyone else is improving at the same time?

 

[Massive]

This might sound callous, but it is true.

Your premise is flawed: smash skill is NOT an even playing field at the beginning. Some people are better suited to it than others.
There are people who practice the same amount and watch the same amount of videos as the pros (sometimes even more) and yet have trouble placing in a regional. They could simply not be as innovative or just not as quick to learn as someone else.

Beyond this, your top skill level is mostly based on the skill of the people you play with. The best player in your crew is the definition of how good you can get given your environment. They are beating everyone consistently, and are therefore the apex of your local metagame.

How do you get around this? Go to tournaments, study playstyles, play people far, far better than you. The quality of the tournaments you attend matters. Winning all of Random Sheik 921's tourneys at your school cafeteria is never going to teach you as much as one brutal swim through a tournament a pool where you get bodied by everyone, or a fateful bracket match where you get 4 stocked in less than a minute by Darkrain.

The top 5 smashers did not get to the top 5 by only playing whoever was convenient, they traveled and played with people all over, training new strategies and ideas that helped them move to the top.

Some players get lucky with the area they're already in (if you live in one of the major smash areas in California, for example) and can get very good without substantial travel. Some players are insulated by distance (much of the midwest) or circumstance (people who are too young/busy to travel) and have more difficulty, but it is possible to get very good at this game.

Does that mean a new player could eventually usurp the established top players? Yes. It has happened before, there were top players before them, and there will be top players after them. Every year there's a new person who is taking the scene by storm, gaining tremendous recognition, sometimes they keep improving and take their place in the pantheon of smash gods and sometimes they just don't make it.

The tl;dr of it: You can get good at smash by playing people better than you, and that usually involves playing new people (and travel). Some people are naturally gifted with smash, that gives them a leg up, but they still have to put in a lot of effort to be great.

 

[Zone]

When you say naturally gifted. Exactly what do you mean?

I think people who have the same tools to get good as another who start at the same time and spend the same time. One does better... That isn't just a random thing. I think a lot of subtle prior life experience is causing that leg up. Maybe one kid did math all in his head as he grew up. The other did math In clad always by calculator.

The kid who did all the math in his head may have better trained his brain at figuring out solutions to a problem. Not saying it's a HuGE advantage. But I think that "natural" advantage comes from somewhere other than "lucky at birth"

 

[Saikyoshi]

This might sound callous, but it is true.

Your premise is flawed: smash skill is NOT an even playing field at the beginning. Some people are better suited to it than others.
There are people who practice the same amount and watch the same amount of videos as the pros (sometimes even more) and yet have trouble placing in a regional. They could simply not be as innovative or just not as quick to learn as someone else.

Beyond this, your top skill level is mostly based on the skill of the people you play with. The best player in your crew is the definition of how good you can get given your environment. They are beating everyone consistently, and are therefore the apex of your local metagame.

How do you get around this? Go to tournaments, study playstyles, play people far, far better than you. The quality of the tournaments you attend matters. Winning all of Random Sheik 921's tourneys at your school cafeteria is never going to teach you as much as one brutal swim through a tournament a pool where you get bodied by everyone, or a fateful bracket match where you get 4 stocked in less than a minute by Darkrain.

The top 5 smashers did not get to the top 5 by only playing whoever was convenient, they traveled and played with people all over, training new strategies and ideas that helped them move to the top.

Some players get lucky with the area they're already in (if you live in one of the major smash areas in California, for example) and can get very good without substantial travel. Some players are insulated by distance (much of the midwest) or circumstance (people who are too young/busy to travel) and have more difficulty, but it is possible to get very good at this game.

Does that mean a new player could eventually usurp the established top players? Yes. It has happened before, there were top players before them, and there will be top players after them. Every year there's a new person who is taking the scene by storm, gaining tremendous recognition, sometimes they keep improving and take their place in the pantheon of smash gods and sometimes they just don't make it.

The tl;dr of it: You can get good at smash by playing people better than you, and that usually involves playing new people (and travel). Some people are naturally gifted with smash, that gives them a leg up, but they still have to put in a lot of effort to be great.

So, essentially, those of us who both live in an isolated yeehaw backwoods area and have no ability to travel at all have no hope whatsoever and should just give up right now before they embarrass themselves.

...****.

 

[Aly]

So, essentially, those of us who both live in an isolated yeehaw backwoods area and have no ability to travel at all have no hope whatsoever and should just give up right now before they embarrass themselves.

...****.

I think you might be interpreting Massive's post a little too harshly. Travel isn't that much of a large issue unless you're very young or don't have a consistent source of income and even then it is not impossible. While gas (the most common excuse I hear) isn't the cheapest thing in the world it's also not that much of an issue, especially when you are carpooling.

But if, for whatever reason, there is just no possible way to drive there are other things that you can do to improve yourself, it may be slower but it is something nonetheless via Videos, Forums, Frame Data, Practicing tech skill alone, etc.

Perhaps you could even give Melee Netplay a try. It'll give you some exposure to what you might expect from other players in a tournament scene. It may not -exactly- represent it but it'll at least give you a taste. It's one thing to know about and see good Falco pressure, but it's a completely different scenario when you're -feeling- the pressure.

Oh! And I wouldn't worry about embarrassment. Unless you're a god at the game, there will be people out there that will body you. They might even 4 stock you for 6 straight hours at a smashfest. It's just something that's going to happen. Just don't let it bother you, even if they style on you. It's just part of getting better.

TL:DR - There's always hope, and always a way to get better. It may not be the most optimal but just because it isn't shouldn't mean you should give up.

Just keep at it, you can only get better! (:

 

[Saikyoshi]

I think you might be interpreting Massive's post a little too harshly. Travel isn't that much of a large issue unless you're very young or don't have a consistent source of income and even then it is not impossible. While gas (the most common excuse I hear) isn't the cheapest thing in the world it's also not that much of an issue, especially when you are carpooling.

But if, for whatever reason, there is just no possible way to drive there are other things that you can do to improve yourself, it may be slower but it is something nonetheless via Videos, Forums, Frame Data, Practicing tech skill alone, etc.

Perhaps you could even give Melee Netplay a try. It'll give you some exposure to what you might expect from other players in a tournament scene. It may not -exactly- represent it but it'll at least give you a taste. It's one thing to know about and see good Falco pressure, but it's a completely different scenario when you're -feeling- the pressure.

Oh! And I wouldn't worry about embarrassment. Unless you're a god at the game, there will be people out there that will body you. They might even 4 stock you for 6 straight hours at a smashfest. It's just something that's going to happen. Just don't let it bother you, even if they style on you. It's just part of getting better.

TL:DR - There's always hope, and always a way to get better. It may not be the most optimal but just because it isn't shouldn't mean you should give up.

Just keep at it, you can only get better! (:

Thanks.

My problem is, though I'm 18, I live in a very conservative household and I'm still not trusted to go outside of the house, so viewing the data be the best option for me. (Especially since I don't have a computer anywhere near powerful enough to handle normal Melee play, let alone netplay.)

My life's kind of a mess. I know I'll never be able to attend a tournament, so baseless aspirations are all I've got.

 

[Red Rice]

Thanks.

My problem is, though I'm 18, I live in a very conservative household and I'm still not trusted to go outside of the house, so viewing the data be the best option for me. (Especially since I don't have a computer anywhere near powerful enough to handle normal Melee play, let alone netplay.)

My life's kind of a mess. I know I'll never be able to attend a tournament, so baseless aspirations are all I've got.

I was in that situation, but the moment I got to college I could go to as many tournaments as I wanted because I found a tournament scene with people that were willing to drive.

@ Big Daddy Josh the thing is, no two people will practice exactly the same. And certain people will pick up certain things more quickly than others. People will not improve at the same rate. That's why you have people always entering the scene and perhaps they can quickly climb to the top. For example, before PP was around, Mango and M2K were having their reign and then he comes up and improves drastically

 

[Big Daddy Josh]

This might sound callous, but it is true.

Your premise is flawed: smash skill is NOT an even playing field at the beginning. Some people are better suited to it than others.
There are people who practice the same amount and watch the same amount of videos as the pros (sometimes even more) and yet have trouble placing in a regional. They could simply not be as innovative or just not as quick to learn as someone else.

Beyond this, your top skill level is mostly based on the skill of the people you play with. The best player in your crew is the definition of how good you can get given your environment. They are beating everyone consistently, and are therefore the apex of your local metagame.

How do you get around this? Go to tournaments, study playstyles, play people far, far better than you. The quality of the tournaments you attend matters. Winning all of Random Sheik 921's tourneys at your school cafeteria is never going to teach you as much as one brutal swim through a tournament a pool where you get bodied by everyone, or a fateful bracket match where you get 4 stocked in less than a minute by Darkrain.

The top 5 smashers did not get to the top 5 by only playing whoever was convenient, they traveled and played with people all over, training new strategies and ideas that helped them move to the top.

Some players get lucky with the area they're already in (if you live in one of the major smash areas in California, for example) and can get very good without substantial travel. Some players are insulated by distance (much of the midwest) or circumstance (people who are too young/busy to travel) and have more difficulty, but it is possible to get very good at this game.

Does that mean a new player could eventually usurp the established top players? Yes. It has happened before, there were top players before them, and there will be top players after them. Every year there's a new person who is taking the scene by storm, gaining tremendous recognition, sometimes they keep improving and take their place in the pantheon of smash gods and sometimes they just don't make it.

The tl;dr of it: You can get good at smash by playing people better than you, and that usually involves playing new people (and travel). Some people are naturally gifted with smash, that gives them a leg up, but they still have to put in a lot of effort to be great.

Thank you for the detailed reply. I ended up talking over this subject with a friend and he pretty much gave me this answer as well. You are right that my premise is flawed, I know things are never equal and as with all sports, some people are just more gifted than others.

Thank you again for explaining everything though, it does in fact give me hope that playing the game myself (and teaching my friends) isn't a complete waste of time. I luckily live in the Norcal, not as close to the SF/Bay area as I'd like to be but its a reasonable 1 1/2 hour drive.

 

[Big Daddy Josh]

I was in that situation, but the moment I got to college I could go to as many tournaments as I wanted because I found a tournament scene with people that were willing to drive.

@ Big Daddy Josh the thing is, no two people will practice exactly the same. And certain people will pick up certain things more quickly than others. People will not improve at the same rate. That's why you have people always entering the scene and perhaps they can quickly climb to the top. For example, before PP was around, Mango and M2K were having their reign and then he comes up and improves drastically

You are correct also. I guess i didn't think about it, but not only did PP rise, Amsa, and other players as well.

 

[BTmoney]

here's something you CANNOT learn from videos, these boards (I was so thirsty for information when I started following the scene so I learned every tech and know all the frame data), or playing bad people: mental game.
I've been competing for 2 years now and I've only gotten progressively more technical. my techskill is crisp and impressive but I would still lose to mediocre players or struggled vs. the type of player you know you're better than.

To fix that I would practice more practical techskill. But there came a point where I hit an extreme plateau for about a year. I broke through it completely a few months ago and have gotten better in the last 2 months than I have in the last year and a half. Go find someone better than you and ask them how they incorporate mixups and how they approach neutral. This game is not just approaching and throwing techskill at people. Once you get past that there is no limit to how good you can be. Who cares if you're good/an elite player if you're getting read and punished?

Also practice ledgedashes, makes your life easier with most chars. good luck

This game is more about being less bad than it is about being good

 

[Big Daddy Josh]

here's something you CANNOT learn from videos, these boards (I was so thirsty for information when I started following the scene so I learned every tech and know all the frame data), or playing bad people: mental game.
I've been competing for 2 years now and I've only gotten progressively more technical. my techskill is crisp and impressive but I would still lose to mediocre players or struggled vs. the type of player you know you're better than.

To fix that I would practice more practical techskill. But there came a point wear I had an extreme plateau for about a year. I broke through it completely a few months ago and have gotten better in the last 2 months than I have in the last year and a half. Go find someone better than you and ask them how they incorporate mixups and how they approach neutral. This game is not just approaching and throwing techskill at people. Once you get past that there is no limit to how good you can be. Who cares if you're good/an elite player if you're getting read and punished?

Also practice ledgedashes, makes your life easier with most chars. good luck

This game is more about being less bad than it is about being good

You know that is really so simple but you pretty much described what my(personal) problem is. Maybe I just don't have the mental game.

 

[BTmoney]

You know that is really so simple but you pretty much described what my(personal) problem is. Maybe I just don't have the mental game.

the thing that made me stop playing stupid was recording my friendlies vs. anyone I considered to be better than me. you'd be surprised at how stupid you look when you watch your own gameplay even when you're not making technical flubs or making bad decisions, you'd be surprised at how linear and predictably you might play. now everything makes sense lol

 

[Big Daddy Josh]

I will try that, thanks!