How does one defeat a good Little Mac?

[One Handed Sword]

This my Smash Brethen is an enigma to me. An unanswered question I have yet to find on the internet. For a long while now I have been playing smash brothers and like a lot of people have heard of Lil macs infamy and how ''op'' he was when the game first came out.

He was never an issue to me due to baiting them near the edge and throwing them off with a follow up that ultimatley kills them or just their plain stupidity.

However this has completley changed to me now. I have fought a lot more skillful little macs now and oh boy do I find them nigh impossible to fight. I do not wish to vent I just want solid advice that will help me shove one into the ground when I see him.

Here is my troubles in a nice listed format.

I cannot punish him at ALL = Here is a common dilemma I block little macs forward smash and attempt to to punish I then eat a down smash immediatly after sending me flying of the stage. Or a lil mac has me on the edge shielding while he uses a barrage of Ftilts in order to chip away at my shield if I roll I get Dsmashed if I let go of shield I get hit off stage with Ftilt. I have 0 clue how to counter them if they poke me with their moves.

Any help will be great.

(and if this has already been done before please alert me and link the thread as a reply. If this is also in the wrong section mods please move it. Rewriting this will be hell.)

 

[Aphistemi]

Little mac suffers greatly in the air, not just off-stage, also try grabbing them more, and when you do grab, try doing the upthrow, and bait counters or juggle them.

He's pretty tricky to beat, but once you figure out their pattern. spot dodge, grab punish, etc. it will be in the bag

 

[kendikong]

I find charizard, bowser, and ness are good counterpicks.

They all have fire that is safe to against a little mac

 

[Senko Zero]

Believe it or not, there are some holes he has. In that aforementioned fsmash to dsmash trap, he has armor on both but if he's facing you he's going to have to hit backward which gives time to punish.

Something else to learn is treat him with more space then where is as a lot of his stuff moves him forward, fsmash being the biggest culprit.

Fighting little mac is mostly about respecting his space (and armor) and figuring out where you strike back. If he likes to grab that's fine, at least it wasn't eating an 20% jab string or fsmash.

 

[One Handed Sword]

Little mac suffers greatly in the air, not just off-stage, also try grabbing them more, and when you do grab, try doing the upthrow, and bait counters or juggle them.

He's pretty tricky to beat, but once you figure out their pattern. spot dodge, grab punish, etc. it will be in the bag

That advice does not help. I throw Little Mac in the air only for one good hit then they evade me and land onto the ground again. Its harder said than done.

And when a good Mac player thinks I keep punishing his Fsmash into Dsmash he does either Fsmash X2 which I find unpunishable or a Fsmash into a Ftilt barage which chips my shield.

 

[Nexin]

Little Mac is somewhat harder to punish online than offline due to most people's reactions being slower in this environment. It's not impossible, but you have to know where his holes are and what moves are fast enough to hit him. @ S Senko Zero gave great advice on how to fight him, so I mostly want to add a few things.

One thing you have to understand is that tricks that work on bad Little Mac players online, such as ledge camping and waiting for them to dash attack into your shield, doesn't work on good ones, as they know to keep their distance when they see somebody camping at the edge of the stage. Since good Little Mac players are also known for being extremely patient, it isn't a good idea to try and wait for them to become restless as they will not only often be able outlast you, but you have also willingly given up stage control meaning that it is going to be even harder than normal to fight them once you finally decide to approach.

I know it seems obvious, but you also have to realize that when he is knocked into the air, he lacks options for returning to the ground safely. His only good options for defense when he is in the air are airdodging, which can be punishable if you either correctly predict when he is going to air dodge or he air dodges into the ground; countering, which is a massive commitment and is highly punishable if you correctly predict when he going to use it; or doing nothing, which can work if he believes that you are waiting for either an air dodge or counter before attacking but is still punishable if he is wrong. Try to figure out which options the Little Mac player tends towards the most and in what situations he prefers using each one.

You didn't mention this, but one thing I'd like to add is don't get hit by down tilt. That move is dangerous as it combos into a lot of Little Mac's moves. If I remember correctly, it may even true combo into KO Punch. What I'm trying to say is that you need to respect that move if you know what is good for you.

Finally, if there is one character that I think can teach you how to perfect shield consistently, its Little Mac. Perfect shield causes no shield damage, no shield pushback, and allows you to drop your shield faster than normally, giving you a larger window of time to punish Little Mac. Once again, this isn't always the easiest thing to do in an online environment, but since you play Ike who has some fairly slow attacks, mastering this will help out a lot.

Anyways, I hope this helps out.

 

[One Handed Sword]

Little Mac is somewhat harder to punish online than offline due to most people's reactions being slower in this environment. It's not impossible, but you have to know where his holes are and what moves are fast enough to hit him. @ S Senko Zero gave great advice on how to fight him, so I mostly want to add a few things.

One thing you have to understand is that tricks that work on bad Little Mac players online, such as ledge camping and waiting for them to dash attack into your shield, doesn't work on good ones, as they know to keep their distance when they see somebody camping at the edge of the stage. Since good Little Mac players are also known for being extremely patient, it isn't a good idea to try and wait for them to become restless as they will not only often be able outlast you, but you have also willingly given up stage control meaning that it is going to be even harder than normal to fight them once you finally decide to approach.

I know it seems obvious, but you also have to realize that when he is knocked into the air, he lacks options for returning to the ground safely. His only good options for defense when he is in the air are airdodging, which can be punishable if you either correctly predict when he is going to air dodge or he air dodges into the ground; countering, which is a massive commitment and is highly punishable if you correctly predict when he going to use it; or doing nothing, which can work if he believes that you are waiting for either an air dodge or counter before attacking but is still punishable if he is wrong. Try to figure out which options the Little Mac player tends towards the most and in what situations he prefers using each one.

You didn't mention this, but one thing I'd like to add is don't get hit by down tilt. That move is dangerous as it combos into a lot of Little Mac's moves. If I remember correctly, it may even true combo into KO Punch. What I'm trying to say is that you need to respect that move if you know what is good for you.

Finally, if there is one character that I think can teach you how to perfect shield consistently, its Little Mac. Perfect shield causes no shield damage, no shield pushback, and allows you to drop your shield faster than normally, giving you a larger window of time to punish Little Mac. Once again, this isn't always the easiest thing to do in an online environment, but since you play Ike who has some fairly slow attacks, mastering this will help out a lot.

Anyways, I hope this helps out.

I like the advice. Playing offensive and see how the Lil mac reacts to him being in an airborne situation. Ill try that next time.

 

[Nexin]

No worries. You don't necessarily have to play offensively against good Little Mac players. You just can't expect to beat them by fighting them the same way you fight the bad ones (though you can still fight those kind of players the same way). The same is true for pretty much every character.

One thing I forgot to mention was that once you get them offstage, be willing to chase them offstage to edge guard him sometimes. While it is true that Little Mac's recovery is horrible and there are certain angles that he will never be able to recover from with or without a second jump, don't assume that just because you threw him offstage that he is automatically dead, especially if the stage has walls as Little Mac can actually wall jump. If you aren't already comfortable with edge guarding offstage, then just practice hopping offstage to attack an opponent who is trying to recover high and work your way from there. Once you have done it enough times, you'll know how far your character can go offstage and which attacks they can use and still be able to recover.

It will most likely take a bit of time for you to master each of these tactics, and you may end up losing quite a but at first. If you keep practicing this though, you will eventually win far more often.

 

[One Handed Sword]

No worries. You don't necessarily have to play offensively against good Little Mac players. You just can't expect to beat them by fighting them the same way you fight the bad ones (though you can still fight those kind of players the same way). The same is true for pretty much every character.

One thing I forgot to mention was that once you get them offstage, be willing to chase them offstage to edge guard him sometimes. While it is true that Little Mac's recovery is horrible and there are certain angles that he will never be able to recover from with or without a second jump, don't assume that just because you threw him offstage that he is automatically dead, especially if the stage has walls as Little Mac can actually wall jump. If you aren't already comfortable with edge guarding offstage, then just practice hopping offstage to attack an opponent who is trying to recover high and work your way from there. Once you have done it enough times, you'll know how far your character can go offstage and which attacks they can use and still be able to recover.

It will most likely take a bit of time for you to master each of these tactics, and you may end up losing quite a but at first. If you keep practicing this though, you will eventually win far more often.

I know all this advice before so I am good but thanks anyways! Edge guarding macs is 0 problem its just getting em there I need help witn.

 

[Ol' King Dedede]

Play as King Dedede, bait him with Gordos, grab him, and edge guard him.

 

[veritron]

It's also worth keeping in mind that he's better online because he shines on flat, final destination type stages because of his dash speed and up-smash. He's not nearly as good on stages with platforms.

 

[1FC0]

dun get hit

 

[Jerodak]

I'm guessing you play Ike, (if I'm wrong please let me know) so I'll be writing this based on what I think Ike would like to do.

First off, something for all characters and for anyone reading this. Stay away from the ledge. I know this has been mentioned before but I really believe that it cannot be stressed enough how important this is. Mac's "footsies" (basically his ability to poke, counter-poke, and move around on the ground for those unfamiliar with that word.) are arguably the best of any character, he has all the tools to out-footsie virtually any other character. Now one of the most crucial aspects of footsies is properly spacing your attacks. So if mac walks into dtilt range for instance, you might normally respond by moving away to get back out of range. However, you cannot move back when you're stuck on the ledge. So mac can freely space moves and apply all kinds of reasonably safe pressure and he can punish your attempts to escape more easily because you have to pass through or over him to get away. Generally, this is why being pinned at the edge really sucks when facing any character. Good players will recognize this and happy take control of the stage for free.

Now that we got that out of the way, here's my actual response to the OP. If I'm correct about you playing Ike then what you might generally want to do is keep mac out. Unless I'm mistaken, Ike's footsie tools aren't very good, but he does have a number of good spacing tools. He out-ranges mac, so just keep him at the range of the sword. As for punishing smash attacks, it helps to power shield them, but spot dodging and whiff punishing work too.

If you know they will throw multiple smash attacks back to back then when you block the first one focus on punishing the second. It gives you more time to react properly and prepare your best punish. You don't have to punish everything you see, if you aren't sure then just wait.

Also, getting mac airborne is very important because Ike has pretty good landing punish tools. I'm pretty sure that properly spaced f-air and n-air won't get hit by the counter. Spaced upsmash or fsmash shouldn't either. (Fsmash does hit above Ike right?) Quick draw could work too, as long as you time and space it well. You could even intentionally miss to bait something then punish that thanks to quick draw's deceptively fast cooldown on whiff. (That wasn't patched out was it?) Just a few suggestions, hope they were helpful, good luck in the match-up!

 

[Dark Phazon]

Play as King Dedede, bait him with Gordos, grab him, and edge guard him.

Me:

Read Description
He starts lag switching after i take his 1st stock.

 

[Senko Zero]

I'm guessing you play Ike, (if I'm wrong please let me know) so I'll be writing this based on what I think Ike would like to do.

First off, something for all characters and for anyone reading this. Stay away from the ledge. I know this has been mentioned before but I really believe that it cannot be stressed enough how important this is. Mac's "footsies" (basically his ability to poke, counter-poke, and move around on the ground for those unfamiliar with that word.) are arguably the best of any character, he has all the tools to out-footsie virtually any other character. Now one of the most crucial aspects of footsies is properly spacing your attacks. So if mac walks into dtilt range for instance, you might normally respond by moving away to get back out of range. However, you cannot move back when you're stuck on the ledge. So mac can freely space moves and apply all kinds of reasonably safe pressure and he can punish your attempts to escape more easily because you have to pass through or over him to get away. Generally, this is why being pinned at the edge really sucks when facing any character. Good players will recognize this and happy take control of the stage for free.

Now that we got that out of the way, here's my actual response to the OP. If I'm correct about you playing Ike then what you might generally want to do is keep mac out. Unless I'm mistaken, Ike's footsie tools aren't very good, but he does have a number of good spacing tools. He out-ranges mac, so just keep him at the range of the sword. As for punishing smash attacks, it helps to power shield them, but spot dodging and whiff punishing work too.

If you know they will throw multiple smash attacks back to back then when you block the first one focus on punishing the second. It gives you more time to react properly and prepare your best punish. You don't have to punish everything you see, if you aren't sure then just wait.

Also, getting mac airborne is very important because Ike has pretty good landing punish tools. I'm pretty sure that properly spaced f-air and n-air won't get hit by the counter. Spaced upsmash or fsmash shouldn't either. (Fsmash does hit above Ike right?) Quick draw could work too, as long as you time and space it well. You could even intentionally miss to bait something then punish that thanks to quick draw's deceptively fast cooldown on whiff. (That wasn't patched out was it?) Just a few suggestions, hope they were helpful, good luck in the match-up!

I should of put this in my earlier post but just to elaborate on some things that are Ike specific as I play him too.

Ike's best spacing tool and one of the best anti little mac spacing tools in the game is his Jab 1. It's just as fast if not faster then a lot of his stuff and comes at a range that can hit him before he hits you. If you see him running, Jab and do nothing else or Jab then crouch. Don't commit to the string, just jab him one time to space check him.

Now Jab 2 comes into the play if they catch on to your jab is you can add in jab 2 to either 1. get more space if they tried to end their dash early via foxtrotting or 2. punish them for trying to punish you when they shield and try to jab. Jab 2 will also hit him if he decides to try and stand there to jab string.

Jab 3 is only there to complete the string and push him back out. That on shield is asking to get any assortment of punches to the face.

Now to respond and supplement some of Jerodak's points.

He does out range little mac with his tilts but the issue is if any of them whiffs or gets shielded (aside from dtilt) little mac is likely to get in for free. Hence tis a bit better to use your jab to space instead. Not to say they aren't useful. If you see a point you can ftilt or can trap him next to an utilt, do it. The bonus of using your jabs to space is that your tilts will be fresh which means if there is an utilt of ftilt opening at high percent, that's a dead mac.

There's some hilarious things you can do to Little Mac's counter. If they are at the edge in the air above you and counter not facing the stage Ike can space an fair so it hits with the very tip so that Mac takes the hit and counters to his death. I honestly wouldn't really on using his smashes when counter comes into play as with them being so strong that can also mean your death.

I'd suggest baiting the counter and going for Ike's really strong grab game and use it to get Little Mac off the edge. All it takes is one off the stage fair and that's also a dead mac.

A lot of what you said was solid Jedorak (especially the footsies break down) and good work on that. I can appreciate the attempt but I just wanted to clarify some things.

 

[Jerodak]

@ S Senko Zero Thank you for elaborating, it's more beneficial to everyone in the long run so I certainly don't mind.