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How do you play against platform camping as Falco?

L33thal

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
131
Location
Monterey Park, CA
I feel like I have a solid ground game but one thing that I really struggle against is platform camping, especially when I'm playing against Fox. A lot of Foxes I play go on platforms a lot and come down with spaced bair/shield drop bair. They also mix in some double jumps. The problem I'm having is I feel like I'm somehow giving Fox all these free approaches and if I get clipped by a bair, I get guaranteed shinespiked off stage.

I've tried timing my approaches to hit my opponents when they come down, timing SH uairs/bairs to hit my opponents when they go up, full hop bair to cut off my opponent's movement on platforms, full hop shine to call out their space on platforms, but these all seem so inefficient. Like I'd time these well from time to time, but a lot of times I feel like I'm not catching the Fox with my hits.

Is there something I could do to play better against this style? I've played 4/5 minute friendlies in Fox vs. Falco and a large part of those games were me trying to clip Fox and Fox trying to sneak in some hits to push me off stage and I feel like there's got to be some better ways for me to handle this because you don't see that much platform camping in high/top-level play.
 

20XXwingleborgXxx

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 25, 2015
Messages
127
Location
Oslo Norway
Shot lasers to f*** up their Movement
Edgecancl sideb's can help you to get faster movement.
Try to put a pressure on them so they cant escape and play for stage in a smart way.
Camp them back someone have to approach, just be ready for it.
Be careful with stagestriking it is hard to platform camp on small stages likes Yoshis and FoD.
 
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Audos

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
104
Location
Austintown, Ohio
A lot of falco's I've talked to have had problem with this, mainly because the zoning at first glance looks rough for falco. Up air is bad, your other SH options don't reach most of the time, and full hopping is an over commitment and a half. For me when it comes to platform camping-heavy opponents you have to remember the objective. Don't try to overextend and attack them unless you've felt for a strong opening, instead, remember that they have a goal in mind by camping the platform:

Their goal is to change the pace of the game and find an opportunity to gain stage control from you.

They feel that either their options on the ground are losing to yours and it is overwhelming them (laser heavy falco's often force players onto platforms), or they feel that YOU are inexperienced in dealing with them on the platforms. Either one of these is fine, both try to come back to the original goal. But if you never give them any free openings, the net result is you in the center of the stage and they are being pressured. It might feel like they are camping you, but it is more like you are camping them. Even if it feels like your momentum is being shut down, don't do anything that they would be looking for, like trying to shine waveland or immediately full-hop nair/dair them. If you don't do anything silly then you win by have more room to dance outside of their range and never commit, more control over your ariel mobility approaching them than vice versa, and you can do a kind of empty pressure I'll explain in a bit.

Now that you know not to do anything too reckless, lets look at what you can do to fight them:
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Abuse lasers: They snuff approaches. The real reason the opponent loses on platforms is because the moment they try to fall through the platform you can move around and they fall with almost no room to drift. Every ariel essentially loses to a laser. This is the number one thing to practice when learning to fight platform campers IMO, because any other kind of pressure you use can force them to use a platform fall-through ariel, and laser beats that with good spacing. Don't be afraid to fire a few below them just in case they want to come back down, just remember to be far enough away sometimes so that they can't hit you in start-up. And of course don't just spam the SH laser in cadence.

Pressure them without committing: This one is like the PPMD special, but you can ironically learn it from the way Smash 4 players gimp against airdodges. The idea is that the opponent gets put in a position where they might get hit, and they are forced to make a decision. Usually a platform camper, especially one that can shield drop, will shield after you dash dance a bit within a threatening range. If you have the potential to FH shine waveland any second, and shielding is all they can do to counter it well, then you can probably trick them into shielding over nothing. After a second or two they can get shield stabbed, and their only great option on the platform is basically nerfed. there's some more to think about, like angling, or them baiting an obvious shield stab attempt, but I can't explain every option they have here.

Approach in ways that counter what you THINK they are looking for: In general don't do the obvious every time. Shines are amazing if you land them, so they will be looking to counter shine more than anything else. I've had a surprising amount of success just wavelanding on the platform and grabbing with a random timing, but that isn't really a great option. Think of weird ways to beat not just platform camping, but what the opponent seems to do on the platform.
Do they SH a lot to bait the waveland/Shine? Then condition them to think you won't FH ariel and knock them offstage with a nair they can't react to.
Do they shield every time you start to run under their space, baiting bad ariel? Waveland grab.
Do they Shield drop early to snuff you when you start to try the first two options? Dash dance like you want to Approach and immediately come back to center stage and laser where they would fall.
If the opponent is camping platforms, then it probably isn't their first time. They usually have a plan that works for them, i.e. they have platform habits.

Use your shield the best ways you can
: Last cool thing to try is your shield. If you are below the platform you can bring up shield then immediately act OOS with a roll or wavedash back and bait them into trying and pressuring you. You can waveland and shield by them to see how they react. You can angle your shield to mix up their L-cancel timing from below or even work some shield drops of your own in to throw them off. They are usually prepared to shield drop you, but they usually aren't prepared for you to approach and shield drop on them.

Mix up timings: This one is the most simple on paper but is often the secret bane of some players. Try to make sure that no matter what options you are picking to combat them, you try to do them at timings just a bit off. Even if they hard read your option, if they move too early to snuff you or too late to punish then you can get away with most stuff. In the end this is all about not just getting in a set rhythm of shooting lasers or approaching.
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Man that was a mouthful >.<
I like to make posts that organize my own thoughts, so this helps me as much as I hope it helps you. In the end just remember you aren't getting camped, they are. And never forget that every time they sit on plats you have more opportunities to practice mixing up timings and improving. GL and I hope it gave you some good ideas.
 
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Audos

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
104
Location
Austintown, Ohio
Oh and one more quick thing I forgot to mention. A lot of time when the opponent is pressured on side platform they will try to move to top platform. I like to Full hop double laser them if they do this, sometimes if you do it just right you can hit them with 2 lasers and land on top platform before they ever hit the land on the platform they were going for, which is great for openings. There's a lot of stuff you can do really, most of it full hopping and making and throwing a hitbox that will wall them. Experiment a bit I guess.
 

Klemes

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 4, 2015
Messages
236
Location
France
Hey, I know I'm late, but there are a few tips I can add on Audos Audos post.

When they're free to move on the plat (not shielding/getting pressured) many foxes will eventually run off nair/bair/drill (like sheiks will run off fair/bair). Always visualize the zone they're threatening, and play around it, DD in and out to make them hungry for an easy opening. Retreating laser is good, I like to laser really high there with SH > earliest laser > no FF, when they're hit higher than they're used to they can mistime their dash back or whatever, and you have longer to nair them, shoot a second laser > approach, DD and CC > shine etc.
AC bair where they would drop is pretty low commitment really, you can get a strong kick, and if they don't bite just follow it with a defensive option like dash away, retreat laser, CC (don't shield there, you give up control).

When you're under their platform, uair is nice to poke at them if their shield is worn out already, and it's a really good launcher :
DI in = shine > WL on top platform
DI out = dair
no DI = weak bair > dair / shine-bair

AC bair also reaches the side platform on every stage but DL, and it's safe even from immediate shield drop if you fade back. You just have to space it well to hit the right spot, shield stop > bair can help.
Fair hits high enough too, but yeah long L-cancel lag. I think it's nice to hit a miss-tech at high% to set up for a dair, just not to pressure shield.

You can practice shine-land >grab. The shine (at the right height) actually makes you land on the platform, no WL here. The man to ask about this is @Bones0.

Laser from the other platform. Know your laser tricks !
-immediate DJ double laser > land on side plat, then :
-SH laser
-run off laser
-SH off plat to laser side platform height and the ground (fading back here is safer to avoid a rush down nair)
-run off DJ double laser (both platform heights)

Just be wary to not give up stage control , you can always contest him with run off > laser if he tries to sneak his way in.
 
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JoeTango

It Takes Two
Joined
May 29, 2014
Messages
126
Location
Florida
if they camp you, you can camp them harder. lasers x 1000. dont be impatient, just make them approach with lasers and when they do uptilt/bair/whatever you want to punish the approach.

I wouldnt do upair when they approach btw

watch westballz vs campy people hes got insane defense and I bet theres a lot to learn from there (idk though im just guessin)
 
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