How do you deal with laser camping Falcos?

[Mikkelmann]

I have a Falco in my scene that will go to the other side of the stage and start laser camping. I tried full hopping but when I do he will run or come up and shine me. How should I avoid/stop Falco from laser camping me?

 

[BootyBlast]

Platform camp

 

[Janky_CNF]

I have a Falco in my scene that will go to the other side of the stage and start laser camping. I tried full hopping but when I do he will run or come up and shine me. How should I avoid/stop Falco from laser camping me?

Work on simple baits like wavedash powershield and try to force him on your terms with heavy pressure. Falco can't make it across to the other side of the stage faster than Fox, so just try and prove him that he can't do that against you.

Hey, even try to throw him off with the Sakurai-Shine and reflect a few of dem lasers and make him come to you eventually by war of attrition.

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

Platform camp

If the Falco is sufficiently patient, this doesn't really get you any punishes as long as the Falco isn't under the platforms. It can probably get you stage position though, and should result in fewer lasers hitting you.

Nothing's really guaranteed to make him stop except being too close for him to safely laser.

 

[BootyBlast]

Just use the fact that Falco sucks when you're above him. Don't challenge in the air, shielddrop from platforms to get center stage.

 

[jazz_1993]

I've had a lot of success with the platform game personally. I'm trying to get shai drops really down (think how plup moves on platforms with shiek), to get a lot of mobility and spacing adjustments on the way down from platforms. Another thing I learned recently is that double jump wavelanding onto lower platforms is faster than single jump.

I feel that as I get a lot of comfort on platforms I'll be able to handle campy falcos pretty well.

Another thing is to keep track of what they do after lasers. Most falcos will not keep lasering if you get close, they'll sh laser towards you and then grab, start pressure, etc. There are various responses you can do after shielding that approaching laser. WD back, spot-dodge, etc.

Personally I don't like being stuck in shield (one of the reasons I have trouble vs falco) so I'm trying to improve my oos mobility.

Finally, take a look at the first stock in this set:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCLsnPKtTWg
Leffen just stays patient against laser camping. No need to get down from platforms. Note the shai drop at 0:42. Also, working on your punish game vs falco in the lab is an easy way to improve in the matchup. If anyone can be one-touch-death'd it's falco.

 

[Archelon]

I know it takes a lot of practice, but powershielding really helps. Otherwise, remember that it's only 3 frames, so if they're being predictable you can beat them. Sorry I can't be of more help.

 

[Greed-checkTheTek]

I agree platform camping is a decent way of working around it but you have to be aware that Falco can jump up there with a waveshine and combo you so be alert you should learn how to powershield as well. On FD I deal with many laser camping Falcos & i just hold shine until they approach lmao you can also full hop neutral air if you can read the laser movement but it's risky.

 

[jazz_1993]

Something new I've discovered is that lasering continously on the ground racks on damange to them faster than they can rack it on to you. Plus when they laser you it interrupts the lag you get when you stop lasering. So if you are far enough that it's safe for you, I think falcos can be forced to approach.

 

[Janky_CNF]

just ledgestall for the entire 8 minutes lol

 

[Archelon]

Something new I've discovered is that lasering continously on the ground racks on damange to them faster than they can rack it on to you. Plus when they laser you it interrupts the lag you get when you stop lasering. So if you are far enough that it's safe for you, I think falcos can be forced to approach.

I think that once they catch on, they can just go close enough that you have too much lag putting away the blaser and just dair you.

 

[jazz_1993]

I think that once they catch on, they can just go close enough that you have too much lag putting away the blaser and just dair you.

Yes, you definitely have to stop lasering pretty much as soon as they approach. But it still conditions the falco to stop and actually start approaching. And you will get a free 20% or so. One thing I haven't tested is what happens if the falco also stays grounded to laser.

 

[Archelon]

B

Yes, you definitely have to stop lasering pretty much as soon as they approach. But it still conditions the falco to stop and actually start approaching. And you will get a free 20% or so. One thing I haven't tested is what happens if the falco also stays grounded to laser.

I might as well try it in a game with a friend, but a falco is able lasers apply from a close distance, without having to always attack.

 

[jazz_1993]

B

I might as well try it in a game with a friend, but a falco is able lasers apply from a close distance, without having to always attack.

True, but if they are close it's not really camping. For me falcos laser camping means they sit across the stage and wait for you to approach. Of course standing laser does not beat a nearby falco.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

dash at them -> powershield -> nair

If you can't powershield well, or miss the powershield and end up right next to them with your shield up, you can shine OoS

Platform camping and shooting a couple of lasers can subtly trick them into approaching you which fox beats realllly bad

If they're obvious about when they are gonna laser (many low-mid level falcos are), you can just run up nair/shine if you're in a close enough space. (Careful about them catching onto this)

Full hop diagonally above him when you think he's gonna laser. If he doesn't then you can drift away and back off. If he does then you can land on him with an aerial

 

[Archelon]

True, but if they are close it's not really camping. For me falcos laser camping means they sit across the stage and wait for you to approach. Of course standing laser does not beat a nearby falco.

A falco on the other side of the stage spamming laser poses little treat. Power shild it or reflect it or whatever. What actually makes the laser so strong is how it gives falco a projectile but he can move for most of it. This makes it great fir approaching with, and frustrating to deal with.

 

[jazz_1993]

A falco on the other side of the stage spamming laser poses little treat. Power shild it or reflect it or whatever. What actually makes the laser so strong is how it gives falco a projectile but he can move for most of it. This makes it great fir approaching with, and frustrating to deal with.

You're right, but I was replying to the original post, which asks about laser camping falcos on the other side of the stage. The OP is struggling with it, even if it's easily handled at a higher level of play.

 

[Archelon]

You're right, but I was replying to the original post, which asks about laser camping falcos on the other side of the stage. The OP is struggling with it, even if it's easily handled at a higher level of play.

Wait, what does OP stand for (I take it it's not Over Powered?)

 

[jazz_1993]

Wait, what does OP stand for (I take it it's not Over Powered?)

OP stands for "original poster". It's the person who asked how to deal with falcos laser camping from across the stage.

 

[Greed-checkTheTek]

Something new I've discovered is that lasering continously on the ground racks on damange to them faster than they can rack it on to you. Plus when they laser you it interrupts the lag you get when you stop lasering. So if you are far enough that it's safe for you, I think falcos can be forced to approach.

THE JANK LOOL I dig it though I might just use that.

 

[Archelon]

OP stands for "original poster". It's the person who asked how to deal with falcos laser camping from across the stage.

Oh, Okay. I suggest learning some platform movement to approach if he needs it.

 

[bearsfan092]

Platform movement, full hops, and running block are all needed in some combination to handle that problem effectively. Platform movement avoids obvious lasers but usually makes for awkward attack angles if they're prepared. Full hops work if you catch their laser timing, but suck if you mistime. Running block allows you to push space and draw out their counter attack at a timing you dictate (plus the powershield factor if you got it). It doesn't directly lead to a follow up against good players but it's a really good tool to create opportunities for openings.

Any single one sucks alone. Using all three works great.

 

[jazz_1993]

Platform movement, full hops, and running block are all needed in some combination to handle that problem effectively. Platform movement avoids obvious lasers but usually makes for awkward attack angles if they're prepared. Full hops work if you catch their laser timing, but suck if you mistime. Running block allows you to push space and draw out their counter attack at a timing you dictate (plus the powershield factor if you got it). It doesn't directly lead to a follow up against good players but it's a really good tool to create opportunities for openings.

Any single one sucks alone. Using all three works great.

I've had the same experience. It's also good to keep in mind that shield grabbing is generally pretty bad vs decent falcos, unless they obviously open themselves up with a high dair or missing a multishine. I've found that a lot of intermediate falcos actually have pretty bad pressure so waiting for them to flub works ok. Shine OOS and roll are also relatively safe.

Another thing to work on is dash dancing close when they full hop. You need to be in that sweet spot where they can't hit you but you can punish their landing lag if they come down with an aerial. Watch out for double jumps though.

Ultimately I believe falco has a stronger neutral (at least at my level of play), so it's good to practice punishing and edgeguarding falco to reduce the number of neutral wins you need. Theoretically fox can one-touch-death falco.

 

[Archelon]

Shine OOS and roll are also relatively safe.

Yeah. Also, WD back OOS is generally to the same effect, letting you punish, say a dair where you were more easily, but you don't have invincibility at any point

 

[Janky_CNF]

Oh, and if you need to close the gap quickly on Yoshi's from the ledge :
1.) Jump from the ledge and waveland forward onto the closest platform (thanks to M2K, I found out that Fox's ledge jump is just high enough for you to land on the closest platform)

2.) Use the momentum and barely run off the platform and immediately side b at the same height of the platform (about.)

3.) If you're doing it correctly, you should side b ledge cancel and be able to jump and bair or apply general pressure.

 

[Archelon]

Oh, and if you need to close the gap quickly on Yoshi's from the ledge :
1.) Jump from the ledge and waveland forward onto the closest platform (thanks to M2K, I found out that Fox's ledge jump is just high enough for you to land on the closest platform)

2.) Use the momentum and barely run off the platform and immediately side b at the same height of the platform (about.)

3.) If you're doing it correctly, you should side b ledge cancel and be able to jump and bair or apply general pressure.

This is a neat trick... I know falco can do these on BF and PS

 

[Janky_CNF]

Yeah, I love doing it, plus you can mix up and be more passive by simply shielding on the closest platform from the ledge then going above them. ( Ex : https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...AxzYhZgZbIVhjFTYA&sig2=zn3HqmrTN8t5Os1A1xiFbQ ) Keep in mind that for every option that you can shield/jump, you can wave-anything.

 

[RaynEX]

If you're facing a Falco that goes full screen and lasers, you can sit in your shine until he decides to engage you in SSBM and actually fight. You can also take to platforms and use them to traverse the level and get closer. Remember that any Falco dumb enough to run to an edge without a plan is essentially cornering himself (think boxer cornered in a ring). He's basically saying "here, take stage control, take center stage too, also you can have positional advantage, btw you can corner me and I can't escape".

If you're on FD the goal there isn't to win neutral or beat the laser game. You already lose neutral once your feet touch the ground on FD because you can't avoid lasers at all. The aim on FD specifically is to hit him once and kill him (chain-grabs, usmash techchases and proper edge-guards, no platforms for him to recover to, etc etc).

The basic mindset vs Falco's lasers (or any strat you can't outright punish consistently) should be:

- Can I punish this? No, it seems difficult / unsafe / inconsistent to get a clean punish every time
- Instead of punishing this with attacks, I will punish it with movement + positioning
- He is running himself into a corner, so I can take positional advantage and trap him so he can't run.

If you're close enough, he can't laser. You can SH nair him premptively and stuff him, which forces him to fight you straight up (and you will usually win with your superior dashdance game)

Good luck!

 

[jazz_1993]

Thanks dude this is incredibly helpful.