How do I land on the ground with Bowser?

[TiersAreReal]

Seriously. Online lag might be a factor in this, but I'm having trouble getting back on the ground at all. Not getting back on the stage, but just getting back on the ground once I've gotten hit (particularly I may never see the ground again against some characters like Captain Falcon). Here's my problem areas:

1. Landing lag. Seems no matter what I do, I have landing lag which gets me hit which puts me in the air again. What's the best option when my feet finally touch the ground? I'm generally getting hit or grabbed at this point or am in recovery from an aerial.

2. Can't seem to find an aerial that will beat out other characters' attacks. Down A has that lag which will get a hard punish, neutral A doesn't seem to have priority and doesn't actually seem safe if the opponent is at low %, I'm almost never in a position for a back A when attempting to get back on the ground, and up A really isn't an option because I'm above my opponent. What's my best option here?

3. Odd hitboxes / slow attacks. Aerial forward A looks like it really should hit opponents but it doesn't. A lot of the times it'll look like I've connected with this attack but my opponent's attack will land and cancel mine. It just seems like this has less range than it looks like. Does it, or is this online lag (it happens in the matches that look lag free) or do the attack frames come out late on it? I suspect a large issue with this attack is that Bowser's big body is basically right on the hitbox as well presenting himself as a big target. It also seems like even the fast attacks don't have hitboxes that come out fast. It almost feels like I need to predict and throw out my fastest attacks well before I'm in range to hit the opponent.

4. Air dodge invincibility frames. I-frames seem to be quite low and Bowser is quite big. I'm having a lot of problems dodging attacks that have lingering hitboxes. I'll air dodge the attack and still get hit by it because a sword or something else is still sticking out after the attack is finished. Or I'll air dodge and they still have enough time to swing again. Is there a smarter way of air dodging?

On that note, is there also some sort of comprehensive guide to mechanics changes with this game? I've noticed some of the more obvious things like edge grabbing mechanics, shieldstun being basically nonexistent, rolling being harder to punish, and landing lag from air dodges being higher. I'm wondering what other basic things I'm missing.

Thanks.

 

[Ranias]

Seriously. Online lag might be a factor in this, but I'm having trouble getting back on the ground at all. Not getting back on the stage, but just getting back on the ground once I've gotten hit (particularly I may never see the ground again against some characters like Captain Falcon). Here's my problem areas:

1. Landing lag. Seems no matter what I do, I have landing lag which gets me hit which puts me in the air again. What's the best option when my feet finally touch the ground? I'm generally getting hit or grabbed at this point or am in recovery from an aerial.

2. Can't seem to find an aerial that will beat out other characters' attacks. Down A has that lag which will get a hard punish, neutral A doesn't seem to have priority and doesn't actually seem safe if the opponent is at low %, I'm almost never in a position for a back A when attempting to get back on the ground, and up A really isn't an option because I'm above my opponent. What's my best option here?

3. Odd hitboxes / slow attacks. Aerial forward A looks like it really should hit opponents but it doesn't. A lot of the times it'll look like I've connected with this attack but my opponent's attack will land and cancel mine. It just seems like this has less range than it looks like. Does it, or is this online lag (it happens in the matches that look lag free) or do the attack frames come out late on it? I suspect a large issue with this attack is that Bowser's big body is basically right on the hitbox as well presenting himself as a big target. It also seems like even the fast attacks don't have hitboxes that come out fast. It almost feels like I need to predict and throw out my fastest attacks well before I'm in range to hit the opponent.

4. Air dodge invincibility frames. I-frames seem to be quite low and Bowser is quite big. I'm having a lot of problems dodging attacks that have lingering hitboxes. I'll air dodge the attack and still get hit by it because a sword or something else is still sticking out after the attack is finished. Or I'll air dodge and they still have enough time to swing again. Is there a smarter way of air dodging?

On that note, is there also some sort of comprehensive guide to mechanics changes with this game? I've noticed some of the more obvious things like edge grabbing mechanics, shieldstun being basically nonexistent, rolling being harder to punish, and landing lag from air dodges being higher. I'm wondering what other basic things I'm missing.

Thanks.

1. You shouldn't be getting landing lag unless you aerial or dodge close to the ground. F-air or N-air is your best bet if you want to try to hit someone on the ground as those have the least endlag. Some good short startup attacks to use if you are getting hit after landing are Jab, F-tilt, and Up B.

2. Like I said earlier, you can try F-air or N-air. You can sometimes dodge your opponents attack if you D-air then hit immediately after. You can occasionally try breaking your opponents shield with a Down B for a guaranteed stock most of the time. You should overall try to limit your time in the air though. Just fastfall and land if you can.

3. Don't try to contest your opponent's aerials with your own unless you are sure you can connect (such as in the case of edgeguarding).

4. Never air dodge into the ground. Don't spam air dodges, because they will get easy to predict. Try to time just a few of them as best as possible to just dodge your opponent's attack.

You pretty know all the mechanics. There's also the rage effect, you get more knockback for more percentage you accumulate.

In Smash 4, most characters are most vulnerable as they are landing. Keep in mind that Bowser is really good at juggling with Dash Attack and running Up Smashes.

 

[S_B]

Smart opponents know how easy it is to keep Bowser in the air because just hitting the ground for him does incur some landing lag (from a certain height, I mean).

Don't be shy about covering your landing with FB if you can, but like Ranias said, Bowser wants to be on the GROUND...

 

[TiersAreReal]

Will take those things into consideration. Thanks.

I guess the thing that still gets me about air dodges is that the i-frames are low and Bowser takes up so much space so I generally get hit by whatever I was trying to dodge anyway. That's why I was looking at aerials to beat out other people's aerials, but I haven't had much luck in that department. We'll see how this goes.

 

[Jerodak]

If you ever use Nair for landing or in general it's best to start it as early as possible because it's incredibly akward in the early frames, and it has high cooldown and landing lag. Fast falling it helps to, because you're harder to space properly against then but don't abuse it. Also, don't start Nair too early or it'll just become telegraphed and get punished. It klanks out weak projectiles too, so keep that in mind when dealing with PK thunder in the air or something similar.

Also, all aerials and specials cancel your fast fall but you can still aerial then fastfall afterwards. You can possibly try using this to mix-up your landing timing a little and maybe offstage as well, but the mix-up is pretty subtle and I haven't tried this out too often myself so I'm currently not sure if it's really that useful for Bowser or not.

Waveboucing and recoiling with firebreath is good for sudden momentum changes with a large hitbox for coverage and the rise on Dair, for the purpose of evading hits, is essentially a third jump, though not as large. Pretending to go for your landing, only to use Dair when you see the dash attack or dash grab coming is a solid answer that can reverse the situation with the ground bounce and even lead to a K.O

Bowser bomb can have a similar effect, but it will stall in place instead of rising, so keep that in mind when you are spacing it, you might want to try the bomb if you feel like you've Dair'd one too many times and feel like they will try to shield grab or shield to fsmash expecting the Dair. This can lead to a shield break, which is fantastic for Bowser.

As an alternative, if you feel like they will shield, you can also try Side B, no shield break at all, but it ignores the shield completely, It's generally quite a bit safer as well, but much harder to space and carries it's own set of risks.

Those are just a few Ideas.

 

[TiersAreReal]

Thanks again.

I guess I have one more question about core game mechanics too. Do the invincibility frames on rolls not start up immediately? I've noticed a lot of the time I'll be shielding, see a projectile like Samus's charge shot coming, and begin to roll out of the way. I'll have a shield up fully so I could tank the shot, and I begin a roll, but I get hit. This happens with characters other than Bowser too. So are the i-frames not instant? Something about rolling just feels off, and this might be it.

 

[Jerodak]

Thanks again.

I guess I have one more question about core game mechanics too. Do the invincibility frames on rolls not start up immediately? I've noticed a lot of the time I'll be shielding, see a projectile like Samus's charge shot coming, and begin to roll out of the way. I'll have a shield up fully so I could tank the shot, and I begin a roll, but I get hit. This happens with characters other than Bowser too. So are the i-frames not instant? Something about rolling just feels off, and this might be it.

Yeah, the same goes for spotdodge. Also, Bowser's roll and spotdodge are pretty slow by comparison to the rest of the cast, so be careful with them.

 

[Rags]

Yeah, the same goes for spotdodge. Also, Bowser's roll and spotdodge are pretty slow by comparison to the rest of the cast, so be careful with them.

if it just me or does it seem like faster characters can get away with/ have safer rolls? I want to get into this game more but the rolling mechanic is one thing that irritates the mess outta me especially against faster characters. punishing takes way too much effort.

 

[Jerodak]

if it just me or does it seem like faster characters can get away with/ have safer rolls? I want to get into this game more but the rolling mechanic is one thing that irritates the mess outta me especially against faster characters. punishing takes way too much effort.

Unfortunately for Bowser, who is a character that's built around poke and punish gameplay, it can certainly be very hard to get these punishes on certain characters. However, it's definitely not impossible, and the development team was kind enough to introduce several mechanics which Bowser can take advantage of which serve as equalizers. For one, hitstun canceling is removed, meaning that you're able to properly tech chase off of throws and get follow-ups if you make the right reads. The same goes for jab and Fair which can both put a majority of opponents in a situation where they must tech the ground or be put into a knockdown state. This is huge for Bowser, because it means he has opportunities to apply wake-up pressure to opponents more often, which is something that Bowser is pretty good at.

On top of that, when a character is forced into the air, Bowser can pressure landings very hard, which often causes a panicked opponent to air dodge. If you read this airdodge, then you can meaty them out of it with a Bair or other aerial if you read their movement properly, if you jump at them like you're going for an Up air to bait an airdodge, you can mix them up by using a Dair instead, this works best if they aren't drifting too far horizontally but if it works you can spike them and get a ground bounce to put them back in the air and apply more pressure. If they are drifiting horizontally then you can just Fair or Bair them depending on which side they are on. You can also just jump at them do an empty fast fall to see if it makes them waste their double jump or to see if they will airdodge or try to retaliate with an aerial, this makes it easier to get the read and use the best options when punishing a landing. If they airdodge into the ground, you have 22 frames of landing lag to work with, and can do pretty much whatever you want as long as you were aware of the airdodge into the ground, you can even land an Fsmash this way.

When edgeguarding, ledge trumping has great potential to be one of Bowser's best friends, ledge-canceled bombs are like the new fortress hogging in this respect, and will often initiate a ledge trump if your opponent didn't get hit first. Bowser's ledge trump follow-ups are vastly unexplored as of right now, but a simple and effective option is to just get up from the ledge and charge down smash, if they went low and must regrab the ledge or if they are forced to land where you're charging then you can get the down smash pretty free. Some characters can just jump past you or hit you out of it though so you'll need to use different options for those situations like up smash or maybe back air depending on what they are trying to do, you could also try getting a Down air spike if you're feeling confident in the read.

Where rolls are concerned, I think Bowser has really good tools for dealing with rolls, Dtilt is one of the best roll killers, fortress works very well, down smash can catch rolls too but it's a bigger commitment than just fortressing. With the right spacing, and use of the fast-fall timing, Fair is a surprisingly strong answer to rolls and spot dodges, because you can often recover by the time they've finished rolling, and in some cases you'll even be at advantage, and that's even without hitting them out of a roll with it. Jab is good at beating rolls and spotdodges also and side - b in the air i a good roll or spotdodge bait thanks to the auto-cancel whenever you land.

Once you get more comfortable with making reads, you can even try some of the trickier and higher risk options like Bair, Fsmash, and Bowser bomb to deal with rolls and spot dodges. Your reward for landing these is often your opponent's stock, but they are a bit harder to use than other options, and in the case of Bowser bomb and Fsmash, you are super punishable if you miss. You can also use SHDair to spike characters out of thier rolls to get a ground bounce into a shield grab or up smash at lower percents or you can try for the up air or just start applying landing pressure if they bounce high up into the air and weren't K.O'd off the top.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Nair is perfectly fine if you have an opponent that's rising to try and meet you in the air.

If they're waiting on the ground, drift away from them and use Fire Breath to cover your landing or you can use Side-B RIGHT BEFORE YOU HIT THE GROUND and cancel all of your landing lag and be able to act immediately afterwards. You can jab, grab, run...pretty much anything you need to do. If someone is chasing you while on the ground and shielding, you can catch them with the side-b grab to punish. It's still possible to grab them out of their shield with aerial side-b.

 

[MrEh]

How do you land? Same way as always: you outplay your opponent and trick them. Down B to grab the ledge, B-reverse fire to switch your momentum, challenge them with Fair, adjust your air momentum with Dair/Bomb, fast fall airdodge at good times, etc.

Alternatively you use Dash Klaw/Dash Slash and make the outplaying easier.

 

[33percentgod]

I came on here to post this same problem. I'm so past frustration trying to play Bowser online. It's juggle juggle juggle juggle. Especially against the Fire Emblem characters. Yoshi is the WORST at this. I get air born and I end up with almost 90 damage sometimes before I actually get back on the ground.

If anyone has any kind of new tips I'm seriously open to suggestion. It's almost where I don't want to play online any more because I'm just juggled for hours.

 

[G-Guy]

hey there, i recently picked up Bowser. I always liked him before but now he seems to be the best he ever was.

Concerning the problem of landing, does Bowser Bomb to ledge help there? I feel like you have better options recovering from ledge than from mid-air

 

[XOSugar]

Do not ever use aerials defensively. If you get hit into the air, DI or fast fall somewhere to safety. You're not going to win. Landing lag following a missed aerial will result in a punish.

If you get hit horizontally, try your best to tech-and-roll in an unpredictable direction.

What I did was switch my controls to make C-stick tilt instead. You're not ever going to throw out an epic drop kick unless it's a deliberate, clear, and open punish (You shouldn't anyway). Wall physical opponents like C. Falcon with your one-two jab combo, and all of your tilts.

Bowser's game is not about being an aggressive powerhouse. You want to bait out mistakes and punish really hard. One way to do this is to predict enemies rolling into you and D-smash or use Up+B to roll chase and punish spot dodges.

 

[Vic]

Someone in another thread discovered that you can koopa klaw right before hitting the ground to eliminate all landing lag, out of which you are immediately able to use any move. When I'm trying to land this is my go-to move, other than covering the landing with aimed fire breath or just heading to the ledge.

 

[Uncle]

There's a ton of good advice in this thread, and now I'd like to share a concept with you guys that I've been embracing recently.

The Power of Nothingness

This stems from what Ranias already said. Sometimes, the best option for landing (or playing in general) is to do absolutely nothing. Just let yourself fall or fast fall to the ground without committing to any attacks or airdodges. Walk or run up to your opponent and then stop all of a sudden. Just stand in place for a moment giving your opponent a Bowser Death Stare. It's possible to get a sweet punish on your opponent, since he or she might have been expecting you to commit to something. When I watch great players, I notice plenty of empty short hops or other empty actions sprinkled into their gameplay.

Bowser is a character with huge endlag on almost every action, and good opponents will always be looking to capitalize. The Power of Nothingness prevents you from handing your opponent punishes on a silver platter, and it makes you much harder to read. A Bowser who is hard to read is a Bowser who is in a better position to dropkick fools in the face.

"You cannot see the true path through clouded eyes."

 

[MrEh]

Sometimes the best thing you can do is just walk at your opponent.

No running. No stupid short hops or dash attacks. Just walk.

 

[XOSugar]

Sometimes the best thing you can do is just walk at your opponent.

No running. No stupid short hops or dash attacks. Just walk.

Or wait for them to come to you and wall with f-tilt. I yell out what I'm going to do it before I do it to be obnoxious. "CLAW, CLAW, SHELL, FIIIIIIIIIIIRE!!!!"

 

[XOSugar]

Don't mind me. I don't know how to use this site yet. :l

 

[G-Guy]

so yeah, I actually learned quite a bit now!

- as stated above, normal walking is preferred. ftilt comes out super fast and you cannot get punished easily for whiffed dash attacks.

- arials are not a good approach. fair seems to be, but that's deceptive. The only time Bowser should approach with an arial is if he can land it against an airborn opponent, preferably during a full hop or off stage.

- short hop -> flame breath, either forwards or backwards is a nice way to tack on damage and enrage the opponent.

- jabbing projectiles works wonders.

- dash -> shield -> UpB or DownB worked nicely for me if I could successfully read my opponent to attack or shield themself.

- Dair has high priority and can almost fall through anything...

oh and of course, Bowser Bomb the ledge

 

[S_B]

Walk or run up to your opponent and then stop all of a sudden.

I suggested something similar in another thread where players were wondering what else there was in this game except for rundown offense. It was like they had never heard of baiting your opponent into a punishable mistake...

You can often run at an opponent, stop just outside of their effective range and bait them into an attack, after which you're free to run straight in and grab them.

People joke about "mindgamez" sometimes, but especially with a character like Bowser, it's all about capitalizing on mistakes and the best way to do that is to bait an enemy into making them in the first place.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Mindgaming a faster opponent is key with Bowser so they make an opening for you and you punch their face. And your punches hurt. A lot.

 

[Big-Cat]

The aerial that is the closest to being safe would have to be NAir, but even that's a stretch. You can't SH it and be safe, but you can do NAir as you're rising with a normal jump. However, don't use it for defensive purposes most of the time.

As Bowser, focus on having a strong base and to not toss yourself out all the time.

 

[XOSugar]

The aerial that is the closest to being safe would have to be NAir, but even that's a stretch. You can't SH it and be safe, but you can do NAir as you're rising with a normal jump. However, don't use it for defensive purposes most of the time.

As Bowser, focus on having a strong base and to not toss yourself out all the time.

You can side-b. Space correctly so your opponent will have to dash to you. Side-b+jab combo=wall.

 

[etecoon]

Using the ledge to reset is also useful, ledge options are also limited but it does give you something different to work with if your opponent is doing much better with juggle reads. Mentality is also important, don't be too frustrated by getting juggled, Bowser is heavy like a truck and the rage mechanic exists

Walking or just standing in close proximity is good not just for misdirection but because your mere presence is pressure, ideally you want to play against heavyweights in neutral where you're far enough away to use your speed to hit them/projectiles/disjoints but they can't hit you, most opponents are not going to be comfortable with Bowser right next to them and not in dash animation(you have options against most of their options and could use them at any time where dashing in makes the timing obvious)

 

[toadster101]

Fast fall neutral air + fire breath with a few down airs and Bowser Bombs on the side. Bowser is very easy to juggle, unfortunately. Unpredictability is everything. Like other posters have said, you can catch your opponents off guard by not doing anything at all.