How Do I Beat An Idiot

[BrickBot]

Hello. I've been having a lot of trouble against one specific style of play. That is, when my opponent is constantly putting out a ton of hitboxs. I still play on an armature and I really want to improve but I really need some help beating this lame style of play.

I will give you an example of a match between me and my friend who plays Roy. He always lands with forward air and back air. Which, since the 1.1.4, unless if I get a perfect shield the shield stun will be too much to land a shield grab or even jab before he rolls away. Unless if I read his roll after the aeriel, he always lands for free. Is there a better way to deal with this?
On the ledge he really likes to get on the stage with forward air, (which remains unpunishable unless i read his roll) or side b. (which he is really good at mixing me up with) I always end up stuck in my shield, with little to no options to punish him. I cannot simply let him get on the stage for free, but against these mixups, I don't know how to stop him. What am I doing wrong?
Now, when i do manage to land a hit, I am able to do quite a bit of damage with my combos, but this works against me because Roy with rage can kill Fox at 45%. I know I need to work on my kill confirms but he always manages to win the neutral by using tilts, his lagless forward smash, side b mixups, and an unpunishable neutral b. Roy's range is also longer than Fox's, so I need to respect his space. However, this too works against me. Unless if he picks one of Roy's laggier options, (i.e. dash attack and dash grab) then he will completely dominate the neutral using only tilts, forward smash, neutral b, and side b's. How do I fight someone who is constantly putting up hitboxs that i just can't challange?

It is painful to play and ugly to watch. He plays like an idiot and his character enables him to get away with it. So I now ask you. How do I beat an idiot?

 

[ZeroJanitor]

Spotdodging, maybe? Run-up spotdodge might bait it out and let you punish. If nothing else he'll be forced to try some other option.

Also, your friend has clearly found a strategy you can't beat so how much of an idiot can he be?

 

[BrickBot]

Also, your friend has clearly found a strategy you can't beat so how much of an idiot can he be?

He doesn't practice. He doesn't think. He plays on complete auto pilot! ME AND HIM BOTH KNOW IT! Meanwhile I lab out combos, practice my tech skills, and think about every single situation. I have zero to death-ed him on numerous occasions only to get shut down the moment he assumes stage control. Speaking of which, He doesn't even know what stage control is! Maybe I am an idiot, but I know he is a bigger one!

But it's not just him. I just used him as an example. When I fight people on For Glory who play in a similar manner, I also lose. I really struggle against this style of play and I don't know where else to turn.

Spotdodging, maybe? Run-up spotdodge might bait it out and let you punish. If nothing else he'll be forced to try some other option.

Alright. This may work. Spot dodging has only one frame of vulnerability on start up. Assuming he doesn't spam side b i should get some kind of punish. Thanks!

 

[Baby_Sneak]

It's called momentum. Escape the situation as quick as possible

 

[DKGrayson]

I find myself in a similar situation with a friend who mains Lemmy.

He throws out jabs and smashes (multi hit so spot dodge is no good) a lot; no spacing involved, it's like he's playing to a template.

The things which help me over come these matches are:

- Predictability; while it's tough if I end up running into this ****, I should always remember that he throws out the same set of moves, so in theory they can be dodged or punished

- Respect; don't look at him as an idiot or a predictable and easy win. Concentrate and DON'T auto pilot

- Respectx2. As much as you have to respect the potential damage that you'll receive, you can't respect him as a player. What I mean by this, is there is probably no need to mix up your play, don't go hot and cold or change the tempo to keep him thinking, because he probably isn't. Stick to what works, rinse and repeat. It's a tough and boring road, however winning is winning

 

[BrickBot]

- Respectx2. As much as you have to respect the potential damage that you'll receive, you can't respect him as a player. What I mean by this, is there is probably no need to mix up your play, don't go hot and cold or change the tempo to keep him thinking, because he probably isn't. Stick to what works, rinse and repeat. It's a tough and boring road, however winning is winning

Thank you. I think I see what I've been doing wrong now.

 

[boneflesh]

you sound like the type of person to approach blindly. please. think and adapt. just because you lab a lot doesn't mean you're a good player.

 

[BrickBot]

It's called momentum. Escape the situation as quick as possible

Escape to where? The ledge? Aren't I just giving up the neutral if i do that?
Or do you mean, escape to regroup and try again?

you sound like the type of person to approach blindly. please. think and adapt. just because you lab a lot doesn't mean you're a good player.

I don't know how to approach! That's why i made this thread, to help me improve. I've hit a brick wall and I would really appreciate some help.

 

[Pixel_]

you sound like the type of person to approach blindly. please. think and adapt. just because you lab a lot doesn't mean you're a good player.

No, I have the same problem and I'm still having the same problem. It bothers me that people can get good so fast just by using rolls, and at the same time high-leveled players recommend you don't use rolls. Even though there's people like me who actually know what the Neutral is, there's the people who roll all the way across the stage and win with little effort. I'm still looking for counterplay tactics, but still haven't found a solid way to win. One thing I've learned is that most characters' rolls are just too hard to punish, so you shouldn't even bother with them and instead deal with the other habits. Still though; I'm the one losing the battles so I'm not sure if I should be the one giving advice lol

imo this doesn't have to be in the Fox thread, I'm sure other people are struggling with this (though I understand that it'd be best to post it here for the specific matchup).

EDIT: ok I read your giant paragraph and idk if rolling is also your problem, but I'm sure most of this applies.

 

[Elyan]

I kind of have the same issue, so my 2 cents about it :
If you have trouble approaching,don't. Laser camp, stay mobile , letting him have stage control for a bit of percent is not the greatest choice but until you figure his pattern out,it's better than eating a random hitbox in the face for reading wrong,right?
Also, try dashing in one direction, shield, dashing in the other direction ,shield,etc a few times,without committing to being too close to him.
This , combined with the laser camp,will force him to try and approach you,or just confuse him and makes him annoyed that he's getting lasered (if he's as dumb as you think he is )
Even if it doesn't just makes him come raging in with a Dash attack or anything stupid , it will still forces him to approach,which is the point here.

Then again, if I guessed correctly about the kind of player you described, he will approach by either Nair or Fair to jab/tilt/roll

To Fair approach,try rolling behing him (yeh,roll, I know,but it has invincibility and makes you avoid the hit,right?)
To Nair, Jump higher and fall on him before he touch the ground (try to always move a bit begind him in case he shields in time so you're not "easy shield grab " material , plus if he rolls /jab and you went in with nair you'll be 100% safe)

Also, FH AC Dair could work to stuff any jump in approach if you read it ,or bait him into something if he thinks he can punish it.

Hope this helped somehow, and sorry for the bad english >.>

 

[Baby_Sneak]

http://8wayrun.com/threads/the-basics-of-soulcalibur.15258/

Approaching isn't easy. You gotta have a good understanding of the basics

 

[Kanunuu]

Hello. I've been having a lot of trouble against one specific style of play. That is, when my opponent is constantly putting out a ton of hitboxs. I still play on an armature and I really want to improve but I really need some help beating this lame style of play.

I will give you an example of a match between me and my friend who plays Roy. He always lands with forward air and back air. Which, since the 1.1.4, unless if I get a perfect shield the shield stun will be too much to land a shield grab or even jab before he rolls away. Unless if I read his roll after the aeriel, he always lands for free. Is there a better way to deal with this?
On the ledge he really likes to get on the stage with forward air, (which remains unpunishable unless i read his roll) or side b. (which he is really good at mixing me up with) I always end up stuck in my shield, with little to no options to punish him. I cannot simply let him get on the stage for free, but against these mixups, I don't know how to stop him. What am I doing wrong?
Now, when i do manage to land a hit, I am able to do quite a bit of damage with my combos, but this works against me because Roy with rage can kill Fox at 45%. I know I need to work on my kill confirms but he always manages to win the neutral by using tilts, his lagless forward smash, side b mixups, and an unpunishable neutral b. Roy's range is also longer than Fox's, so I need to respect his space. However, this too works against me. Unless if he picks one of Roy's laggier options, (i.e. dash attack and dash grab) then he will completely dominate the neutral using only tilts, forward smash, neutral b, and side b's. How do I fight someone who is constantly putting up hitboxs that i just can't challange?

It is painful to play and ugly to watch. He plays like an idiot and his character enables him to get away with it. So I now ask you. How do I beat an idiot?

I've also started having trouble with this. In particular on fg since I play entirely off of reaction and there's a significant input delay where I live. I find that as fox I want to play the same. I always want to be throwing out hit boxes. My time spent training against cpus has taught me a lot about offense but basically nothing about proper defense. So I'll give you my thoughts about what I've been learning for the past few weeks.

1. Identify the level of player you are against. At the start of the match, do they run up and dash attack? Absolute scrub, (still have lost to these players before.) Based on their understanding of the game we go to step 2.

2. Identify what they want. Understand their playstyle. How do they approach you. Through the air? Through the ground? Rolling? Smash attacks? Do they press buttons non stop, are they waiting for your rolls? This part is important, otherwise step 3 is useless. Which is probably the most important step.

3. Understand the flow of the game and develop a counter attack. What most people aren't aware of, (specifically low level players) is that there is a constant conversation going on in between two players. It is about what both of them want in a specific situation. Just like in a real life argument, one person can do all the talking, and if they are loud enough, they can be simply overwhelming. However if your opponent understands what you want they can come up with a defense. I recommend you watch genesis 3 losers finals between dabuz and ranai. Watch how dabuz walls him out and uses shield. Notice how as soon as ranai tries to grab him, dabuz spot dodges. This is without ranai going for grab once in the set, but dabuz is able to identify what ranai wanted and counter attack.

4. Coming up with a defense. I am the type of fox player that constantly wants to throw out my hitboxes and stuff oos options and stuff defense. That's what fox is arguably best at. However, if you misstep once, it can cost you a lead, positioning or a stock. It's important to know when not to attack.
So defense... When you get down to it, certain moves beat out shield, you can't shield grab everything, (and the higher level you get, the more you realize it's a bad a lot of the time.) However, there is no move, (besides final smashes) that can cover all of the stage. Which leads me to my biggest point of defense, specifically for fox, given his limited options oos. Spacing. If you can out space your opponents approach, there will always be enough lag on every move to punish a poor approach.

5. The actual defense. This is always going to vary from situation to situation, but here is some general ideas for certain approaches.
-your opponent dash attacks. This is dependent on the dash attack and how far it goes, and how large it's hit box. Most dash attacks can be short hopped over and punished with a back air. The ones that can't can be dodged with a fh auto cancel dair. Simply walking away from them can work if they don't properly observe the situation, (I also like perfect pivoting, however sometimes I accidentally turn around after the pivot and my punish gets messed up.) As soon as they whiff, you can run back in and punish. Shielding the dash attack will also work, but fox has a poor oos game, and if your opponent understands anything about smash, they will mix up their approaches, and you will be in a poor position. Another option is to stuff them before they approach. If you are versing a scrub, you can pretty freely dash attack them before they have a chance to approach you. This can also be done with pp d tilt and pp up tilt.
If your opponent approach you with aerials, the same applies, you can out space them by walking back, (and fox has a great walk) and punish where they land. This is why people shff. Because they can easily be out spaced if they full hop, and be punished.
You can also stuff they before they approach you, by dash attacking rar bair, pp up tilt, sh nair, and fh ac dair. Another option is to try and catch their aerial drift and find where they land, and run up and shield to that spot, and shield grab. (This is what you see zero do a lot.)

That's my take on it.

 

[Malcolm Pickering]

this is so sad. I haven't personally done the math, but i know that there is no way in hell that Roy's aerials are safe on shield. If they were he wouldn't be low tier. Same with his fsmash which is super super super unsafe. You literally have 40 frames in which to punish it. I'm not familiar with how shields work in smash 4, but nair out of shield should be able to hit Roy if he lands a fast fall aerial on your shield or an f smash. ASSUMING Fox is taking full shield lock lag (11 frames) Fox should be able to punish ALL of Roy's grounded moves with a grab and definitely with a nair bc shield lock apparently doesn't affect jumping OOS

"4-11: Locked into shield (8 frames minimum) ~
12-18: Shield drop lag (7 frames)

Shield Lock frames does not restrict your ability to use the natural out of shield options such as rolls, spot dodge or jump (and things you can jump cancel)."


Additionally i actually did decide to do the math for Roy's fair: shield stun equation for sm4sh is X/1.75+2. X is the amount of damage a move deals. If Roy's fair deals 11 damage Fox's shield stun is 8 (you round down). Thus bair is punishable with a shield grab and Roy only has 1 frame to avoid being grabbed if he lands with fair. Roy's nair deals only 6 damage so shield stun on fox is only 5 frames, so nair oos should only take 13 frames and grab oos should take 14. Nair's lag is 11 so technically this is safe if you friend chooses to dash away quickly enough (Rolling will NOT protect him as he is only intangible on frame 3/4).


TLDR: you are too slow. practice reacting OOS faster with pretty much any aerials bc i doubt your friend is frame perfect

 

[BrickBot]

I've also started having trouble with this. In particular on fg since I play entirely off of reaction and there's a significant input delay where I live. I find that as fox I want to play the same. I always want to be throwing out hit boxes. My time spent training against cpus has taught me a lot about offense but basically nothing about proper defense. So I'll give you my thoughts about what I've been learning for the past few weeks.

1. Identify the level of player you are against. At the start of the match, do they run up and dash attack? Absolute scrub, (still have lost to these players before.) Based on their understanding of the game we go to step 2.

2. Identify what they want. Understand their playstyle. How do they approach you. Through the air? Through the ground? Rolling? Smash attacks? Do they press buttons non stop, are they waiting for your rolls? This part is important, otherwise step 3 is useless. Which is probably the most important step.

3. Understand the flow of the game and develop a counter attack. What most people aren't aware of, (specifically low level players) is that there is a constant conversation going on in between two players. It is about what both of them want in a specific situation. Just like in a real life argument, one person can do all the talking, and if they are loud enough, they can be simply overwhelming. However if your opponent understands what you want they can come up with a defense. I recommend you watch genesis 3 losers finals between dabuz and ranai. Watch how dabuz walls him out and uses shield. Notice how as soon as ranai tries to grab him, dabuz spot dodges. This is without ranai going for grab once in the set, but dabuz is able to identify what ranai wanted and counter attack.

4. Coming up with a defense. I am the type of fox player that constantly wants to throw out my hitboxes and stuff oos options and stuff defense. That's what fox is arguably best at. However, if you misstep once, it can cost you a lead, positioning or a stock. It's important to know when not to attack.
So defense... When you get down to it, certain moves beat out shield, you can't shield grab everything, (and the higher level you get, the more you realize it's a bad a lot of the time.) However, there is no move, (besides final smashes) that can cover all of the stage. Which leads me to my biggest point of defense, specifically for fox, given his limited options oos. Spacing. If you can out space your opponents approach, there will always be enough lag on every move to punish a poor approach.

5. The actual defense. This is always going to vary from situation to situation, but here is some general ideas for certain approaches.
-your opponent dash attacks. This is dependent on the dash attack and how far it goes, and how large it's hit box. Most dash attacks can be short hopped over and punished with a back air. The ones that can't can be dodged with a fh auto cancel dair. Simply walking away from them can work if they don't properly observe the situation, (I also like perfect pivoting, however sometimes I accidentally turn around after the pivot and my punish gets messed up.) As soon as they whiff, you can run back in and punish. Shielding the dash attack will also work, but fox has a poor oos game, and if your opponent understands anything about smash, they will mix up their approaches, and you will be in a poor position. Another option is to stuff them before they approach. If you are versing a scrub, you can pretty freely dash attack them before they have a chance to approach you. This can also be done with pp d tilt and pp up tilt.
If your opponent approach you with aerials, the same applies, you can out space them by walking back, (and fox has a great walk) and punish where they land. This is why people shff. Because they can easily be out spaced if they full hop, and be punished.
You can also stuff they before they approach you, by dash attacking rar bair, pp up tilt, sh nair, and fh ac dair. Another option is to try and catch their aerial drift and find where they land, and run up and shield to that spot, and shield grab. (This is what you see zero do a lot.)

That's my take on it.

Thank you so much!

Hope this helped somehow, and sorry for the bad english >.>

This did help. And your grammar is perfect!

this is so sad. I haven't personally done the math, but i know that there is no way in hell that Roy's aerials are safe on shield. If they were he wouldn't be low tier. Same with his fsmash which is super super super unsafe. You literally have 40 frames in which to punish it. I'm not familiar with how shields work in smash 4, but nair out of shield should be able to hit Roy if he lands a fast fall aerial on your shield or an f smash. ASSUMING Fox is taking full shield lock lag (11 frames) Fox should be able to punish ALL of Roy's grounded moves with a grab and definitely with a nair bc shield lock apparently doesn't affect jumping OOS
"4-11: Locked into shield (8 frames minimum) ~
12-18: Shield drop lag (7 frames)

Shield Lock frames does not restrict your ability to use the natural out of shield options such as rolls, spot dodge or jump (and things you can jump cancel)."

Some characters are very good at an ameture level. Much better than they are at a tournament level. Also, I'm sorry. I should have specified that Roy's f smash is near unpunishable on shield because of the shield knock back and shield stun. But, I see how to punish his aerials on my shield now. Just SHOOS nair or dair.

Additionally i actually did decide to do the math for Roy's fair: shield stun equation for sm4sh is X/1.75+2. X is the amount of damage a move deals. If Roy's fair deals 11 damage Fox's shield stun is 8 (you round down). Thus bair is punishable with a shield grab and Roy only has 1 frame to avoid being grabbed if he lands with fair. Roy's nair deals only 6 damage so shield stun on fox is only 5 frames, so nair oos should only take 13 frames and grab oos should take 14. Nair's lag is 11 so technically this is safe if you friend chooses to dash away quickly enough (Rolling will NOT protect him as he is only intangible on frame 3/4).


TLDR: you are too slow. practice reacting OOS faster with pretty much any aerials bc i doubt your friend is frame perfect

I don't get it? I buffer a shield grab but it's always too slow. I know that he is buffering his roll on landing (dam auto-pilot) and he always manages to get away before the grab comes out. Maybe there's something else involved? Or maybe shield grab doesn't buffer on shield stun? I hold shield and mash until i see a grab come out. Is that wrong?

 

[Dream Cancel]

I don't get it? I buffer a shield grab but it's always too slow. I know that he is buffering his roll on landing (dam auto-pilot) and he always manages to get away before the grab comes out. Maybe there's something else involved? Or maybe shield grab doesn't buffer on shield stun? I hold shield and mash until i see a grab come out. Is that wrong?

Yes, it is. Shield grabbing is performed by Shield --> Attack, not Shield --> Grab. Basically R + A, not R + Z.

 

[Pixel_]

OMG I THINK I'VE DISCOVERED HOW
IT WAS SO SIMPLE

To beat a noob, you play like a noob. I used to play Pikachu before I knew about the Neutral/etc., and was pretty much OP against the people I fought. This is because of the playstyle I developed on autopilot, where I spammed projectiles and then grabbed the opponent, to summarize it roughly.

So, to play like a noob, you should have a character in your back pocket who you can go full autopilot on. If you don't already have a character like that, there's characters everybody can play autopilot and still win. That is,

Seriously though, I'm beginning to think that the only way to defeat noobs is to switch into an autopilot. Unless you're at a pretty high level where you can beat autopiloters anyway, you should probably throw a Little Mac at your friend and Forward Smash him all day.

 

[BrickBot]

Yes, it is. Shield grabbing is performed by Shield --> Attack, not Shield --> Grab. Basically R + A, not R + Z.

Thank you.

OMG I THINK I'VE DISCOVERED HOW
IT WAS SO SIMPLE

To beat a noob, you play like a noob. I used to play Pikachu before I knew about the Neutral/etc., and was pretty much OP against the people I fought. This is because of the playstyle I developed on autopilot, where I spammed projectiles and then grabbed the opponent, to summarize it roughly.

So, to play like a noob, you should have a character in your back pocket who you can go full autopilot on. If you don't already have a character like that, there's characters everybody can play autopilot and still win. That is,

Seriously though, I'm beginning to think that the only way to defeat noobs is to switch into an autopilot. Unless you're at a pretty high level where you can beat autopiloters anyway, you should probably throw a Little Mac at your friend and Forward Smash him all day.

lol. I've actually played a roll spamming, F-smashing mac against a few times for fun. But that's not what I'm asking for. I know that if I pick a brain dead character I could probably beat him, but I want to beat him with Fox.

 

[BrickBot]

Well. I'm glad to say that this thread has helped me a lot. I'm thinking more. I found out what to practice. And, I have improved quite a bit. Thanks to everyone who has contributed, and if anyone has more to add, feel free to do so.