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I don't have any problem with Fox and I know that other characters are on his tier like Marth. I was just using it as an example.In melee, fox has 3 other characters on this level tier wise, and around 8 characters that can win events that are commonly used.
In brawl, every tournament is
Why are you talking like fox is the messed up character?
Says what authorit'ah?
The fact that the same 2 pieces of equipment can have semi-random attributes like items have in KI:U
I didn't ask you why YOU think they shouldn't be considered and just dismissed right now.The fact that the same 2 pieces of equipment can have semi-random attributes like items have in KI:U
I mean, I imagine it's going to be like KI:U in that there's going to be some sort of algorithm that stops anything from being too overpowered, but it's way to much **** to bother with for comp play.
Also it changes the game way too much, I'm alright with different move effects to help in matchups, but changing the actual character just doesn't sit right with me, unless there's a piece of equipment that decreases landing lag.
I could say the same for analysing frame data and hacking the game to analyse hitboxes, like what was done in Brawl and Melee.
You made this link main happy.
Ummmmmmm.... We haven't even played the game that much. It isn't even out, and I think everyone who played it, played with people.
I didn't ask you why YOU think they shouldn't be considered and just dismissed right now.
I asked what authourity has said that it's totally illegal. Furthermore, said authourity must have really solid and indisputable reasoning for people to accept it (the reasoning you presented is not near enough, by the way).
The way equipment works is that gloves increase strength, but decrease defense.
Shoes increase speed, but decrease strength.
And Armour increases defense, but decreases speed.
Those are constant facts applicable to custom moves. It's also worth noting that the meters cap at +200:
Look at the Attack stat in this picture (which only effects the strength of A button attacks, not special moves). It is at +148.
Now look at the Speed stat. It's at +53. Add those together, and you would get +201, so if you took the green gauge graphic in Photoshop and used it to fill up the rest of the Attack gauge, you'd be just a pixel over filling the gauge, which means it must cap at 200+ (and after seeing how these stats function at that level in Smash Run demos, I know they are not completely ridiculous).
So you cannot make your stats that ridiculous. For example, if you use only that glove accessory in the picture and leave the other slots empty, your defense will be left at -50 despite having the extra attack. But even if you try to offset that with a defense piece (like in the picture), you will find your Speed in the negative zone now, and in the picture above, the Defense stat is barely improved from the vanilla 0+ stat. So you will have to now sacrifice a bunch of your power to get your speed to at least vanilla.
So there is no way this system will be amazingly unbalanced, it's looking pretty fool proof so far.
I could say the same for analysing frame data and hacking the game to analyse hitboxes, like what was done in Brawl and Melee.
But that's just me.
Custom movesets won't be banned. Most people actually accept that they will be good for competitive play, since it helps you exchange moves you might not like in an otherwise great character, for something else, or it lets you get rid of moves that might not be useful under certain rulesets.
I'm not necessarily opposed to all forms of custom equipment. However, anything that causes random effects like critical hits should be avoided like the plague. I've seen way too much of that stuff on Pokemon Online/Showdown.
I'm middling hopeful, but it always comes down to Sakurai's decision, and he's believed some crazy things about the balance of the game.As long as Sakurai allows for patching, this game will obtain a neutral and fair balance amongst the entire cast. However, if there are no patches....there's a significantly less chance of this occurring.
I hope there are patch updates to the cast....
Wait, what? Pretty sure he said the exact opposite (from the "Character Creattion" page on the official site):
I didn't say anything about what anyone else said...
"they've already been claimed by Sakurai as having little regard for balance put into their design."
oh I thought you meant HeavyLobster
I'll agree that custom equipment is most likely not helpful for Wii U tournaments, primarily because of the random nature of the stats meaning you'll never be able to get two pieces of equipment that are exactly alike. That said, saying that Sakurai designed custom moves with no regard to balance is simply misguided. Yes, he said they're not allowed online. This is probably more to do with the idea that players fighting random other people should be able to know what moves their opponent can use before the match starts, and to avoid disadvantages for players who have not yet unlocked a particular custom move and thus would have no clue what it does even if they saw the name.
...But that's not what custom equipment does.
Heaviness and [EDIT: knockback] resistance are the same thing, super armor aside.
No one's afraid of the idea. Custom X won't be the herald of some non-glory that turns uninterested players into *******.
If you can get specific attributes, then saying those values are the only adjustable things is pretty inaccurate. Powershielding is already a very strong mechanic. If it turns out to be the best attribute and is as easy or easier than Brawl's P-shielding, then items are going to be pretty damn degenerate.
But you just said they do function that way
I'm not ignoring it. First of all, custom items are not a mechanic. They are not intrinsically a part of the game engine. Second, more options for the sake of more options is not an agreeable point. If there was an option to make your character do the Harlem Shake or teleport to the center of the stage it would still be pretty stupid. Third, custom equipment isn't a real option - it is a commitment, like a character or stage. They define how you play. Something that externally defines how you play is not an option. There's nothing you can change about that when the actual game commences. Wave dashing, for example, is a mechanic that enables options - when you are coming out of shield stun, do you spot dodge, grab, roll, or wavedash to reposition? Can I bait an opponent on a platform by jumping on the end of it it and sliding off? Should I try and do a running crouch cancelled attack against someone coming on stage or do I have time to jump cancel a pivot into an edge hog? Those are options. Banning wavedashing wouldn't be like banning items unless items offered some kind of mechanic not already available - making them easier doesn't count, either.[/quote]
No they aren't, since it's situational by move. What the equipment does is simply make a character more difficult to launch at their core.
I didn't say they were the only things, but regardless, this point is speculation and therefore means nothing right now. My point is that equipment as a whole should not be banned. If there is such a thing as an over-powered perk like "Infinite Final Smashes" or something, then obviously that specific perk can be banned. Doesn't mean the whole system should be disregarded.
No, you sounded like you thought any old value can be adjusted, when it's only three, and then I pointed out the bonus perks that exist, like the "Easy Perfect Shield" one.
So I guess Sakurai is giving us a feature that doesn't work, since he forgot to implement the equipment system into the actual game engine! Since, you know, a mechanic is simply something engineered into the game engine. This includes something as basic as menu actions.
That's just arguing semantics at this point.
From being ignorant about the nature of weight and its relationship to knockback to posing runaway slippery-slopes scenarios about banning ATs because not everyone can perform them (which have zero relevance to anything), you don't have any business speaking on this subject. I really shouldn't even be dignifying this post with a response. Maybe one day when you are well-acquainted with the game you can come back and make some kind of meaningful commentary.
To me, this comes across more as "I have no proper counter-arguments myself so will just put the other person down and pretend they don't know anything about the game. Yes, that will help my ego! :D".
First I'd like to ask, when and where were Rosalina's alternate moves shown? I haven't heard of any of those.
He's at least partially correct. Weight and Falling Speed are completely different and independent values in the game's code. "Weight" refers specifically to knockback/hitstun resistance. For example, Fox is ridiculously light-weight, but still one of the fastest-falling characters in the game. By comparison, Samus is actually pretty heavy, but is one of the game's floatier characters.
And congratulations, Sonicbrawler, on taking a quote completely out of context. He's right: Once you're in the match, custom equipment, just like base character choice, is a commitment. It's in that match for good, same with custom moves. It's not at all the same as a technique like wavedashing or turnaround cancelling, because you as a player, mid-match, can choose how and when to use those abilities, just as you choose where to move or what attack to perform. External choices such as the stage are no longer "an option" once the match starts. They're a decision that has been set in stone.
Amiibos might be able to support equipment transferrals, though we don't know that yet.
I didn't take it out of context, because it's still just arguing semantics. So yeah, pre-battle preperations are a commitment...and? That has to do with custom equipment being banned because....? It's a pointless, obvious statement.
In your response, you likened pre-battle choices to advanced techniques as if they were the same. I just pointed out that they're not. Whether or not they're "fine" was irrelevant to my argument, as I was simply pointing out a logical fallacy in your statement.
Regardless of what you think should be the case, most people are not going to want custom move tournaments. They'll probably be a side event attraction in actuality, but a moderately popular one.
You know, we really did go over the topic of custom moves in standard tournaments in another topic on the subject of their legality, and almost everyone there agreed that custom moves should be a part of standard Smash 4 tournaments.
...I think you guys completely misunderstood my comparison. There is no logical fallacy here.In your response, you likened pre-battle choices to advanced techniques as if they were the same. I just pointed out that they're not. Whether or not they're "fine" was irrelevant to my argument, as I was simply pointing out a logical fallacy in your statement.
I don't mean as side events. I don't mean running them in tandem by the same people either. I just mean that both should be equally supported by the community at large.
That's funny, there is also a thread where people voted that they won't be allowed.
And who's to say people who vote "No" automatically know what they are talking about?
It's quite easy to dismiss anyone as a non-competitive player on principle. For some of them (myself included), it may even be true. But I don't believe it fair or courteous to instantly dismiss the opposing side as not knowing what they're talking about while at the same time automatically assuming your side is in the right. Also, I think it should be considered that just because someone has never played at a tournament level themselves does not mean they do not necessarily have valid insight into issue, especially for a completely new game with a completely new and as-of-yet unknown metagame. This is everyone's time to be casual again, because no-one is competitive on the first day even if they have the goal of becoming a competitive player.
It's one thing to say "I'd go to an X kind of tournament" and to say "X game should be run some Y way", which is what you have said, because if you don't show up to tournaments then you have no say in how they should be run, even granted that this is a new game. You'd be an outsider trying to have a say on something that doesn't affect you but does affect others.
And what's my position, exactly?
Yeah, that was back when some people were still convinced that custom movesets would affect normal attacks, have sliders and were banned from With Friends too.
