How can we be unique smash players and not clones? (rhetorical)

[Nova The Silly One]

With ZeRo's recent obvious statement of "American sm4shers suck cus they play the same and rely on me to lead the meta-game and nobody can beat me", what are ways that we can branch off from the current meta-game, think-outside-the-box, make our own discoveries, and raise the competition? I know this is a stupid way to spark a movement (and it's pretty corny tbh), but I want to encourage everyone to actually take time to sharpen up on your mind-games and do stuff with your main that nobody else does. Easier said than done, but we need American Smash 4 prodigies (or prodigies in general) to step it and show us new things! If anyone has anything to say about this then go ahead. Also, if you know unexposed sm4sh players that play abnormally and could possibly change up the meta-game, post links or descriptions below. I want to see new things.

 

[Thecombosetups]

Using tricks that we create and use our own unique playstyes. Plus doing things people don't do like go up close and personal with Duck Hunt like Commander Ducky. Here is the link to his Duck Hunt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=177m55VoSA0

 

[AnchorTea]

It saddens me that a lot of the Sm4sh community are NOW just starting to try to get better when ZeRo insulted thousands of Sm4sh players.

This is why I don't believe that 3/4 of the Sm4sh community will ever meet their competitive Smash Bros goals, because @ChileZeRo was right. That 3/4 ARE lazy. They think that playing hours on For Glory will make them improve, but when in reality they're just hindering themselves. For Glory is filled with players that use the same tactics over and over. They don't put variety in their playstyle at all. Seriously, go on an FG match and I can assure that 90% of the time, they will start out with a D-throw combo. That's why FG is unreliable, and even if it was like, let's say Smash Ladder, you still can't improve the way you want just by playing it.

The 3/4 just doesn't know what potential they have. They should be trying to find out their MU's, their main's potential, and tactics that differ from most people. That's why players like @NinjaLink , @zeezee , @MikeKirby , and @MJG are very good players and looked up to, because they decided to take the time to learn. The time to figure out potential. The time to find out new tactics that they used in order for them to be successful!

That's all I have to say. Sorry if my rant seemed unnecessary, it is just something that the 3/4 hasn't realized yet that I needed to get off my chest. Maybe i'll make a thread in the future about this...

Glad i'm not a part of that 3/4...

 

[Megamon]

It saddens me that a lot of the Sm4sh community are NOW just starting to try to get better when ZeRo insulted thousands of Sm4sh players.

This is why I don't believe that 3/4 of the Sm4sh community will ever meet their competitive Smash Bros goals. Because @ChileZeRo was right. That 3/4 ARE lazy. They think that playing hours on For Glory will make them improve, but when in reality they're just hindering themselves. For Glory is filled with players that use the same tactics over and over. They don't put variety in their playstyle at all. Seriously, go on an FG match and I can assure that 90% of the time, they will start out with a D-throw combo. That's why FG is unreliable, and even if it was like, let's say Smash Ladder, you still can't improve the way you want just by playing it. ( @link2702 )

The 3/4 just doesn't know what potential they have. They should be trying to find out their MU's, their main's potential, and tactics that differ from most people. That's why players like @NinjaLink , @zeezee , @MikeKirby , and @MJG are very good player and looked up to, because they decided to take the time to learn. The time to figure out potential. The time to find out new tactics that they used in order for them to be successful!

That's all I have to say. Sorry if my rant seemed unnecessary, it is just something that the 3/4 hasn't realized yet that I needed to get off my chest. Maybe i'll make a thread in the future about this...

Glad i'm not a part of that 3/4...

I've played hours of FG to kill time and have gotten considerably better from a shielding standpoint. Also have gotten the hang of pivot stuff because of it. It is a very bad place to try and get better, though, as I've seen plenty of people on Anther's that can completely destroy me. When I go Pacman, I can usually prevail a bit longer than if I go Marth or anyone else really, because I have put some time in to learning Pacman's gimmicks and traps. There's still so much I can do, and I'm starting to see the fruits (lol) of my labor with him after I got complimented on my play style with him at a local tourny. Can't wait until I can master his awkward play style, so I can start creating my own little "meta-game".

 

[AnchorTea]

I've played hours of FG to kill time and have gotten considerably better from a shielding standpoint. Also have gotten the hang of pivot stuff because of it. It is a very bad place to try and get better, though, as I've seen plenty of people on Anther's that can completely destroy me. When I go Pacman, I can usually prevail a bit longer than if I go Marth or anyone else really, because I have put some time in to learning Pacman's gimmicks and traps. There's still so much I can do, and I'm starting to see the fruits (lol) of my labor with him after I got complimented on my play style with him at a local tourny. Can't wait until I can master his awkward play style, so I can start creating my own little "meta-game".

Well playing the game in general can obviously make you better, but trying to reach yours goals just by doing that isn't going to happen. That's why, like I said, you gotta find your own potential.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

I love ZeRo, but I strongly disagree with parts of that statement.

Innovation in America is low because the barrier of entry is so high. It's not that Americans are lazy, it just isn't financially viable for more people to devote the amount of time to learning the game that he does. And the reason why all the top guys play similarly is because that's what works. I don't know how to beat ZeRo, therefore I can't judge the people better than me that can't do it either.

If you want to increase innovation, promote the expansion of the meta. Complaining about something that is the way it is for a reason is not helpful

 

[Kurri ★]

I love ZeRo, but I strongly disagree with parts of that statement.

Innovation in America is low because the barrier of entry is so high. It's not that Americans are lazy, it just isn't financially viable for more people to devote the amount of time to learning the game that he does. And the reason why all the top guys play similarly is because that's what works. I don't know how to beat ZeRo, therefore I can't judge the people better than me that can't do it either.

If you want to increase innovation, promote the expansion of the meta. Complaining about something that is the way it is for a reason is not helpful

This just sounds so flawed though.

I can assure you there are games with "higher barriers" than Smash 4 and they're doing just fine, innovating and pushing their metas, I don't see how Smash is any different. And just because one tactic just works, it doesn't mean, play the same everytime. Once people find holes in your gameplay, what do you do? Keep playing the same because it worked before? No, you innovate and change up your game plan.

As far as I see, ZeRo is pushing the meta (albeit somewhat artificially, his trash-talk feels forced in some places), he's calling players out on their BS and telling them to step their games up.

 

[GhostUrsa]

@ RIP_Lucas That's the thing, the barrier of entry is the lowest it has ever been. I agree that most of us aren't full time players, and so don't have the time to devote to start expanding the meta in an accelerated pace. Bringing up something that is becoming a problem is how you start making people think about the Meta in unique ways. One person cannot drive the Meta's development on their own.

I see a lot of forum posts that seem to boil down to "you need to play a certain set of characters a certain way to win", which is actually part of the problem. We as a community aren't promoting people playing who they want and helping them learn their MUs. We are very divided between the "Stick only to top tiers and known strategies" and the "Follow your own path no matter the consequences" methodologies, instead of finding a way to blend them like most sport do. Most of us will be in the minor leagues our whole careers, but that doesn't mean we should be using those in the Major leagues as a crutch or encyclopedia. This years starters are next years champions, so to speak.

In Football, couches are constantly trying to find ways to change their playbooks to find new ways around situations. Some feel that copying other playbooks is fine, but those teams never stay on top for long as someone is trying to find ways around it.
In Boxing, MMA and other fighting sports fighters and their mentors don't force combatants into the same weight class and fighting style, they learn the basics on what they want to learn (Karate, Judo, Boxing, etc) and then cultivate their fighting style to match their personality and then improve on it to make it work. This is something I don't see a lot of in the general forums, and only in a few of the character specific forums. This makes some sense, as the character specific forums are studying a specific character to find the different playstyles that work but in the general forums there is a lot of assumptions.

TL:DR; Developing the Meta is going to be an effort for all of us and not just the top 1%. Just because those at the top are noticing a trend doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. With some effort to study our favorite characters and promoted cross-conversations between character communities we can nip this in the butt.

 

[Xermo]

So zero's calling out a community of players that are not only relatively new to the series, but are less than a year old? Lol this man has been playing high tiers for 5+ years in brawl why the **** is he acting so entitled.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It saddens me that a lot of the Sm4sh community are NOW just starting to try to get better when ZeRo insulted thousands of Sm4sh players.

This is why I don't believe that 3/4 of the Sm4sh community will ever meet their competitive Smash Bros goals, because @ChileZeRo was right. That 3/4 ARE lazy. They think that playing hours on For Glory will make them improve, but when in reality they're just hindering themselves. For Glory is filled with players that use the same tactics over and over. They don't put variety in their playstyle at all. Seriously, go on an FG match and I can assure that 90% of the time, they will start out with a D-throw combo. That's why FG is unreliable, and even if it was like, let's say Smash Ladder, you still can't improve the way you want just by playing it. ( @link2702 )

The 3/4 just doesn't know what potential they have. They should be trying to find out their MU's, their main's potential, and tactics that differ from most people. That's why players like @NinjaLink , @zeezee , @MikeKirby , and @MJG are very good players and looked up to, because they decided to take the time to learn. The time to figure out potential. The time to find out new tactics that they used in order for them to be successful!

That's all I have to say. Sorry if my rant seemed unnecessary, it is just something that the 3/4 hasn't realized yet that I needed to get off my chest. Maybe i'll make a thread in the future about this...

Glad i'm not a part of that 3/4...

And then there's the people such as myself who like being involved with the community, have contributed at least something, but are isolated enough to the point where it's a choice between online play or beating up the AI since to the best of my knowledge there's no Smash scene to speak of in my town. So I do what I can, but I'm under no illusions and fully expect to get trounced whenever I play someone who knows what they're doing.

(Fortunately this will be changing soon for me now that I have an imminent job offer in a major city. But that's still a month away.)

 

[Kurri ★]

So zero's calling out a community of players that are not only relatively new to the series, but are less than a year old? Lol this man has been playing high tiers for 5+ years in brawl why the **** is he acting so entitled.

While he is talking about the community as a whole, he is specifically aiming at those who have just as much, if not more years of experience, which a lot of the top players do. Yet for some reason, he's still the one on top undefeated. What is ZeRo doing that those other top players aren't?

 

[Xermo]

While he is talking about the community as a whole, he is specifically aiming at those who have just as much, if not more years of experience, which a lot of the top players do. Yet for some reason, he's still the one on top undefeated. What is ZeRo doing that those other top players aren't?

Zero was one of, if not, the best brawl player (lol metaknight main). His fundamentals transferred over easily, something that doesn't occur with every smasher. Some people just have natural talent, this doesn't give him the right to ****-talk such an infant playerbase.
This man is payed to live off of this game, so of course he'll be on it 24/7 perfecting playstyles and learning to read opponents, but he's going around acting like this luxury is available to even the other top players; like just because they were good in brawl means they should be able to come into smash 4 and beat him regardless of whatever character changes occurred. Even then it's still been less than a year, being undefeated at some nationals doesn't make you a ****ing god.

 

[AnchorTea]

And then there's the people such as myself who like being involved with the community, have contributed at least something, but are isolated enough to the point where it's a choice between online play or beating up the AI since to the best of my knowledge there's no Smash scene to speak of in my town. So I do what I can, but I'm under no illusions and fully expect to get trounced whenever I play someone who knows what they're doing.

(Fortunately this will be changing soon for me now that I have an imminent job offer in a major city. But that's still a month away.)

I try to contribute to the Villager meta as much as possible. The biggest things I have done is figure out the secret to the One-Chop tech, and then figuring out that it got removed from the MewTwo patch.

 

[Big-Cat]

Innovation, the lack thereof, really is a problem in the community. I honestly believe a lot stick to a "Melee standard" where mobility rules everything. I've been playing in a way that is comfortable for me while gradually making discoveries on my own. Like I'm pretty certain Bowser's FTilt does not have a hurtbox on the fist.

 

[Nova The Silly One]

I try to contribute to the Villager meta as much as possible. The biggest things I have done is figure out the secret to the One-Chop tech, and then figuring out that it got removed from the MewTwo patch.

That's saddens me so much. I had just started to figure it out too

 

[RayNoire]

Competitive games generally don't have cultures of innovation. People want to succeed as quickly and efficiently as possible, and the best way to do that is to copy the successful. Innovation requires more commitment and carries more risk.

But there are major advantages to uniqueness that I think most competitive people don't realize, particularly in Sm4sh. I've always preferred to main low tiers, not because I'm an "honorable" scrub (or a masochist) but because people rarely know the low tier matchups. And it's difficult to practice them, because no one plays those characters. Meanwhile, I know all the top tier matchups. It's an information advantage that hopefully makes up for whatever weaknesses you take with a low tier.

And with everyone raving about Sm4sh's balance, there's no better time to consider adopting a needy low tier.

(Don't pick Mewtwo though)

 

[|RK|]

Zero was one of, if not, the best brawl player (lol metaknight main). His fundamentals transferred over easily, something that doesn't occur with every smasher. Some people just have natural talent, this doesn't give him the right to ****-talk such an infant playerbase.
This man is payed to live off of this game, so of course he'll be on it 24/7 perfecting playstyles and learning to read opponents, but he's going around acting like this luxury is available to even the other top players; like just because they were good in brawl means they should be able to come into smash 4 and beat him regardless of whatever character changes occurred. Even then it's still been less than a year, being undefeated at some nationals doesn't make you a ****ing god.

That's a fine excuse for recreational/semi-competitive players. Not for people trying to reach the top, and that's where his trash-talk makes the most sense. There are people elsewhere (in this case Japan) where the average tournament-goer puts in more effort, because the game is important to them.

Anyone that will accept the slow progress was probably never going to beat ZeRo in the first place.* No disrespect, of course.


*Slow progress is inevitable, of course. But it is my experience that it's the strongest competitors that try to go beyond that curve, even knowing that.

 

[PerryEllis]

American players as a whole aren't genuine. We use cookie-cutter combos to compete and cowardice characters like Samus, Link, Duck Hunt, Pac-man, etc. You would think that we'd be creative or unique but not as American gamers. It's sad. I played against a player on the 3DS and his Samus relied on the same combo throughout the match, missile, missile, charged shot. American smash players are boring players.

 

[outfoxd]

American players as a whole aren't genuine. We use cookie-cutter combos to compete and cowardice characters like Samus, Link, Duck Hunt, Pac-man, etc. You would think that we'd be creative or unique but not as American gamers. It's sad. I played against a player on the 3DS and his Samus relied on the same combo throughout the match, missile, missile, charged shot. American smash players are boring players.

You are kinda damaging your own credibility by making sweeping and borderline hurtful assertions based on what appears to be a personal code of honor.

More or less implying people who play one archetype are worth less, while using one anecdotal example in your favor is poor rhetoric.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

now I would like to know how can someone that literally have almost no local scene at all and with only wifi and cpu improve the meta?

 

[MrTeddyBear]

I think one thing we can do is that we can be more aware of the playstyles of Japan, since I think that was the point that Zero was trying to make in the first place. And to be fair, I've seen a lot of interesting stuff among Japanese players as well.

There's one youtube channel that I found that has good Japan content, including the Umebura tourneys were their top players usually participate in.

It may not be an immediate solution to this but it doesn't hurt to try and incorporate some new things into our gameplay. The same thing happened in Apex 2012 where Japan showed us some new stuff which we had no idea they were feasible(or stuff that we thought wasn't very optimal/risky until we saw them use those) and they ended up winning taking the entire tournament, and they were still ahead of us for quite a while after that, especially when you take players like Otori and 9B who had consistently beat our top players when they came to us (I don't think Nairo ever won a game vs Otori). Although it didn't happen this Apex, it could very well happen in the next big national that they decide to show up if we let them get ahead of the metagame.

EDIT: Found a post from @Dark.Pch that I feel explains this perfectly.

 

[NewZen]

Personally couldn't care what the man has to say given his actions in order to win tournaments which makes him more of a contradicting *** (Complains about Customs and rants on Diddy Kong, only to use him to basically win almost every tournament he can, regardless of the "Play-to-Win" mentality).

Regardless of what he or anyone else says, the game isn't even a year old and he himself has the luxury (Nay, it's his bloody job to play a game) in regards to the game where many either play it for fun (Because not every Smash 4 (Or Smash player in general) player is in it for competition) and most people who play competitively only really do it for fun and have other things to deal with than playing a video game for 12+ hours a day. You also have people who cannot get together with other players in person and have to rely on FG as a source of playtime with humans, because the A.I. sure as crap isn't going to make you any better.

Even still, we're going by the "Play-to-Win" mentality, so of course you're going to see the same stuff over and over again, regardless of whether or not the community expands-for everyone 1 person that brings something new to the table, at least 10 or more people don't want to change their play-styles to adhere to what everyone else is doing. You have to give this type of stuff time, and ******** about how people play roughly 9 months after the game's come out (One in which a lot of newer players are jumping onto) isn't really inspiring anyone in a positive light, it's just causing the scene to be considered even more a toxic mess when the "best player" sounds like an impudent *****.

There's my two cents, and I already know someone's going to try to explain why I'm wrong and ride ZeRo's behind on this situation because he does have some merit to his claim, but the fact of the matter is, you have to give **** time-nothing more, nothing less.

 

[busken]

American players as a whole aren't genuine. We use cookie-cutter combos to compete and cowardice characters like Samus, Link, Duck Hunt, Pac-man, etc. You would think that we'd be creative or unique but not as American gamers. It's sad. I played against a player on the 3DS and his Samus relied on the same combo throughout the match, missile, missile, charged shot. American smash players are boring players.

For starters defining characters as "cowardice" just because they thrive off projectile play makes that statement not only false but ignorant, and the funny thing is that those characters bring some of the most innovative players to the spot light, such as Abadango and MVD. The generalization that American players aren't genuine or constantly use cookie-cutter combos has no weight to it since you have never been exposed to high level players or even talked to a community of them. You have no insight to what it means to be a competitive american player so your statement is useless. I do agree however that this country seems to take the easy way out and is reluctant to do things out of the norm, since they deem them unviable on paper.

 

[erico9001]

What? I don't really care about ZeRo. I don't follow him. I don't watch his videos. The one I did - some stage video - was unfittingly inaccurate and unresearched. That shows me his skill has made him arrogant.

I know how to be good at Smash Bros, and I know why ZeRo is good at it. There's plenty of room to be better than him. It all takes a lot of effort, though. ...And it is mostly effort. I'm not shooting for the top, because while I care about Smash Bros, I care more about other things. I don't want Sm4sh to be my life, after all. I know 'best Smash 4 player' would not leave me satisfied. Instead, I like using my creativity to help out others on their journeys to improve. I'm focused on Shulk, because I really want to see the character succeed.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I think something ZeRo is forgetting about is natural talent. People love to say garbage like "As long as you practice, you can be just as good as the pros!" when it just isn't true. If you have slow reflexes, you have no potential; no amount of practice will make you good. Unless you are willing to drop out of school and quit your job to practice Smash, practice will never really overcome natural talent.

 

[GhostUrsa]

I think something ZeRo is forgetting about is natural talent. People love to say garbage like "As long as you practice, you can be just as good as the pros!" when it just isn't true. If you have slow reflexes, you have no potential; no amount of practice will make you good. Unless you are willing to drop out of school and quit your job to practice Smash, practice will never really overcome natural talent.

The quote is true, but you are focusing on a smaller part of the pros. (People like Zero) You can be a pro with practice, but how good of a pro is determined by some things you can't control (natural reflexes, ability to multitask, attention to detail) and things you can (understanding on how your body works and picking a character that compliments you, understanding that characters Match-ups, comprehension of fundamentals). The inspirational quote is to keep people who could become the next 'Zero' from losing hope before they get there, and statistically speaking you never know if you will be the next one until you attempt it.

Most of us will never get to that level, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try our hardest.

 

[digiholic]

The problem isn't that the barrier to entry is too high, it's that it's too low. Honestly, Smash 4 is being plagued by scrub mentality from people who aren't good enough to deal with jank. ADHD is an innovator with the villager strat. Dabuzz is an innovator with the Rosalina stall. These are people that are changing the meta, and the community is just yelling at them for using "cheap strats" to win. That's the entire freaking point. The Smash 4 community is filled with casual players who've never played a tournament in their lives yelling at people for doing things that win tournaments. If anything good comes up, everyone's immediate reaction is to ban it. Donkey Kong has a good move with customs? BAN DONKEY KONG! Villager has a difficult, safe strategy? BAN CUSTOMS! Rosalina takes every match to time? BAN DABUZZ!

Stop ****ing banning everything and work on improving the metagame around those strategies. Jesus.

 

[GhostUrsa]

The problem isn't that the barrier to entry is too high, it's that it's too low. Honestly, Smash 4 is being plagued by scrub mentality from people who aren't good enough to deal with jank. ADHD is an innovator with the villager strat. Dabuzz is an innovator with the Rosalina stall. These are people that are changing the meta, and the community is just yelling at them for using "cheap strats" to win. That's the entire freaking point. The Smash 4 community is filled with casual players who've never played a tournament in their lives yelling at people for doing things that win tournaments. If anything good comes up, everyone's immediate reaction is to ban it. Donkey Kong has a good move with customs? BAN DONKEY KONG! Villager has a difficult, safe strategy? BAN CUSTOMS! Rosalina takes every match to time? BAN DABUZZ!

Stop ****ing banning everything and work on improving the metagame around those strategies. Jesus.

Having a low barrier of entry is how you grow a community and make something mainstream enough for it to continue existing. The reason why it is so aggregating currently is because this is the first time in ages Smash has had a huge influx of new people in and most of us don't know how to handle it as a community. We are a relatively young community of sportsman compared to other eSports or competitive event in general. This inexperience is partly why I believe Smash is so fragmented, we haven't figured out as a collective yet how the sport of 'Smash' should universally look like yet.

How we handle these newbies will determine whether or now it (Smash) continues to grow. Most sports are easy enough that 5 year old children can learn the basic, play and enjoy themselves and yet that doesn't stop the Pros from perfecting what can be done. Coaches and judging panels will take complaints from newer players with a grain of salt, shift through the crap ones and attempt to fix legitimate issues, which helps the meta grow even more (we have more people playing, some will become new experts which means more discoveries).

Summary: There is no such thing as 'too low of a barrier of entry' for a sport (physical or mental) as long as the path to the top has enough depth to make people want to master it. (All the bragging rights!)

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Yeah but sadly most of us cant get to show our level in tournaments and highest we get in smash is to beat our friends on it..