• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

How can I improve my spacing and stage positioning?

SMOE

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 2, 2013
Messages
19
Location
Chicago, IL
I've been playing Melee competitively for a bit over four months now, and while I've succeeded in getting most of the basic techskill for Falco down (waveshining, SHL, SHFLing, etc.) I've found that my ability to adapt and to space around my opponent hasn't improved nearly as much. What can I do to improve the mental side of my game the same way I have my techskill? For the past couple weeks I've been finding that I'm hitting a plateau, and it's really annoying.
 

wezai

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 27, 2007
Messages
311
Location
Mogi-Guaçu / Brazil
I think with Falco that comes with time, specially after you have muscle memory of all your basic and most important techskills. Because then you will actually be able to see a particular problem in a match and come with a possible solution; the important thing here is that you will be able to execute what you are thinking as your body will be bale to input what you want.

Adaptation is also key here, if your opponent proved that he will punish you if you repeat a certain action or approach in a certain manner, try to mix it up so that they will not know when to expect that specific move that they were countering before or you just might discover one of their weaknesses just by mixing it up. One example is Ken (Marth) vs PC Chris (Falco), PC Chris would approach with lasers all the time, but Ken was using his counter (Down-B) to dodge the laser and net an attack on him if he was close enough. However, PC Chris did not adapt to that situation, he kept lasering knowing that he will be punished for that, leading him to lose the game. So you have to think of things like this and adapt on the go.

If you are losing to a specific character due to bad positioning, try to find out why you lost and what you did wrong. What moments you were open for punishment and etc? Most of the time it narrows down to personal experience, knowing your match-up and knowing your own boundaries. Just play a lot of matches with players better than you or with the same skill level. If you are motivated, that boosts the speed rate at which you learn these things and will only add to your personal experience book; things such as "should I f-tilt in this situation? Should I d-smash? Is my bair going to connect from this distance? Am I safe if I approach this specific character in this way?" and etc, it will only improve your spacing and stage positioning game.

Anyway, I'm sorry that I can't give a perfect guide to spacing, but from what I experienced, that is something that comes with time. I'm sure that a lot of better Falco players can give you some very helpful tips on that aspect. If you don't get any more replies here try asking in that Dr PP "Falco Discussion thread" for a better heads up. I'm just a small fish in a small pond as of now and I took a long break from Melee. Just recently I picked it up to play with my pals again. But I hope this can still help you in some way.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Have you tried licking toads?

edit:

Ok I'll be serious. Answer these four questions as best you can. Answers do not have to be long. In fact, I strongly discourage you from answering with fluff. Just convey your level of comprehension as best you can. Nobody is going to judge you here.

1) Where do you think Falco's good positions are onstage?

2) What is good about Falco in his good positions onstage?

3) What are Falco's most reliable attacks onstage?

Answer those and we'll go from there.
 

SMOE

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 2, 2013
Messages
19
Location
Chicago, IL
1) I get the impression Falco is best when he controls the center of the stage and when his opponent is above him (with some margin behind and in front of him).
2) He can avoid easy gimps and on stages with platforms can extend combos on to platforms, pending percentage and DI in the center of the stage. The second position allows him to set up a lot of offensive opportunities.
3) His lasers and nair are reliable for the neutral game (and for extending combos) and dair, bair and shine are good for starting and ending offensive situations.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Okay here's what I'm noticing.

You don't recognize the advantage gained by pushing someone to the edge as that. You've reached the understanding that having center-stage is good -- and it is -- but you're mostly looking at the defensive benefits of it. In the second question the very first thing you've pointed out is that platforms help his recovery. Cool, but that's not really creating a good situation where you have positional advantage so much as it mitigating the disadvantage incurred from a bad one.

So let's break Falco down a bit. Risk-reward and let's talk about how we can work a better offense.

So the first thing that usually comes to mind for me is...

Grabs. You could get a lot of utility out of grabs as a positional tool. Your lasers force people to shield, take stun, or jump in order to manage them. This creates opportunities for free hits. Throwing people above you often forces them to move to the side to avoid a follow up. The fun part is that it doesn't even work all the time because Falco's throws are pretty solid despite what people will tell you. Throwing people off the level once they've been backed up against the wall is also solid. You can lead into grab with shine (shine --> JC grab is a really strong tool), or off your laser, and you can even dash dance into it.

One of the most useful utilities of grabs is simply how much they open an opponent up. While it's true that aerial-shine chains are safer vs a shield than most things, the opponent still has a lot of options during an aerial-shine sequence and you are playing one of the most fragile characters in the game. In a lot of ways you want to limit how many outcomes are possible from a combat exchange -- especially if you're likely to be shield grabbed and killed if the opponent does something good. I don't want to give the impression that aerial-shine sequences are utterly useless because they're not by any means. But you're trying to start a combo or get a hit when you're shield pressuring. Grab does that. The same shine you'd use to extend the pressure sequence with an aerial can also lead into grab. Hell, that shine can lead to another shine. The mixup potential is endless.

Shines. Shines are another reason why pushing people towards the edge or into holding the edge is good for you. Your shine requires people to DI sharply from you in order to prevent you from being able to follow. But at the edge that means they're going offstage. This holds true for many of your combo starters. If they don't DI away, you can dunk them. If they do, you can wall them out with bairs (and whatever else looks good).

Lasers. Once you have someone pinned (especially if you've forced them into grabbing the edge) they really don't have many recovery options because you can stuff most of their options off the ledge with lasers. This forces them to attack early or take a defensive role in order to fight their way back to you. Which you can play to exploit. If they're turtling, your biggest strength is your ability to harrass without really committing much -- things like moving in a bit with a laser to put pressure on them and then dash dancing to get out of the way of their shield grab or attack out of shield can be a great way to open someone up at the edge without really committing to much. It conditions them into waiting longer or attacking right away to break this. The former is beaten by simply doing exactly what you're doing or by using a variety of careful, low-commitment openers (laser --> shine, laser --> grab, laser --> shine --> JC grab, etc) to apply pressure and get them off the level. The latter is beaten by simply watching for how they're going to attack you and punishing it -- it's a more risky strategy on their end because they're trying to hit you. Bair is usually good vs that, as is dash dance grab, u-tilt, and walking away.

Falco actually has a really good ground game between those three moves, his dash dance, and his long dash SH distance. I notice you're focusing mainly on his aerials themselves and how you can play them in different ways but the core of most characters starts with the ground because it offers you your grab, your shield, your main movement options, and it's where most of the fighting occurs. If you want a strong positioning game, think about how you can sweep people off their feet while keeping yours planted. Grabs, shines, dash dancing, and SHLs are the best place place to start with that. Falco is all about control.
 

SAUS

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 20, 2008
Messages
866
Location
Ottawa
KirbyKaze!!! What do you think of Falco's f-tilt as a shield pressure option? I like to throw it in after some laser approaches. I think if it is spaced correctly, there isn't anything they can do about it. I usually follow it up with dash dancing, laser, or another f-tilt.
 

KP17

Banned via Administration
Joined
Jul 6, 2012
Messages
113
Location
Atlanta, GA
if an opponent is conditioned to take a ftilt on their shield after a laser, i usually go for laser grab
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
KirbyKaze!!! What do you think of Falco's f-tilt as a shield pressure option? I like to throw it in after some laser approaches. I think if it is spaced correctly, there isn't anything they can do about it. I usually follow it up with dash dancing, laser, or another f-tilt.
I think it's okay to nudge people off the level. Spaced f-tilt hits much earlier than any aerial you could follow up a laser with, so there are little timing games you can play with it that you can't do with conventional Falco pressure. That alone makes it kind of cool. I remember one really good Falco in Toronto always liked it after 60% vs Marth and Sheik as a way to push them off the level, and vs other spacies as a way to interrupt their SHs without having to dive in with something more committal.
 

Oskurito

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
1,948
Location
Hell
I think Marth can still grab falco's f-tilt even if you space it well, marth's grab range is too op. I personally wouldn't try that against marth unless I happen to catch him in the air.

I would like to commend kirbykaze, such great advice and knowledge of the game, I'll love to play someone like him.
 
Top Bottom