How can Bowser be improved?

[Mr. Bones]

I honestly don't think he even needs a "significant" buff to his d-smash. For me, it's easy to hit with and get the read for it...it's just not worth hitting with except at around 130-150%. I can kill the same way with the same read with D-tilt, except it's faster and safer. I just wish d-smash had a different purpose/utility. Or that it would just kill earlier than that due to it being very punishable on whiff.

Other than that I honestly think Bowser is fine. The projectile game likely won't develop any more than it already has unless a patch changes the nature of current projectiles. So at the moment, they're easy to Power Shield/get around for me at least. Like Robin's Side-B. I can usually side-roll towards them on reflex as soon as they lift their hands for the animation and punish their end-lag.

That's just one example. Bowser can Jab-1 to nullify a lot of projectiles while covering the option of an opponent rolling towards you as well.

I honestly believe that Bowser can be mid-high and still quite viable as the meta develops as long as Sakurai doesn't nerf him like an idiot. He still kills ridiculously early and lives for a really long time. You can still be unpredictable with Bowser. I simply use all of his safer options early game and even in late game and pull my punches for a bit. Then I'll mix it up with something laggier and a good read to get the kill.

Also his early Up-throw->Fair/Uair is guaranteed now with Vectoring nerf as hard as it was. >_> Unless people aren't mashing air dodge hard enough. Either way it's free damage as far as I've been using it.

Overall, he's still a very solid character, and I plan on making a Bowser guide once I put some more work in the lab and look at his MUs some more as people discover other characters and how to be great with them.

 

[S_B]

I honestly don't think he even needs a "significant" buff to his d-smash. For me, it's easy to hit with and get the read for it...it's just not worth hitting with except at around 130-150%. I can kill the same way with the same read with D-tilt, except it's faster and safer. I just wish d-smash had a different purpose/utility. Or that it would just kill earlier than that due to it being very punishable on whiff.

I love the idea of making it reflect projectiles for that reason.

It's not Fox's reflector or Mario's cape in terms of speed and ease of use, but if you read correctly, you could send an opponent's projectile back at them and that'd be AWESOME. However, fail to read correctly and you're VERY easy to punish, thus making it balanced.

Hell, most characters could just hold off on firing until the move finishes, then light you up, but it would at least be SOME functionality for DSmash because, like you said, Dtilt will often accomplish the exact same objective, just MUCH safer...

 

[Mr. Bones]

That would be neat, but it's the least likely change to happen currently. So far they have just been adjusting minor properties and damage %. Now, will bigger changes come in a possible 2.0? Will we get that far?

I don't know. =o I can only hope that they don't change him for the worse between now and then. So until then, I'd be happy if it killed a little earlier.

Even then, I'm pretty happy with him as is. It's still possible to do work with him.

 

[MrEh]

People should just play with Dash Klaw/Dash Slash before asking for buffs. A lot of Bowser's weaknesses are remedied from using these moves. And for his other weaknessess?

Well god forbid a character has weaknesses in the first place.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ MrEh lol So many flavors of ice cream, and people still choose salt.

Joking aside, there are people confusing disadvantageous matchups with being under-tuned. This will always lead to knee-jerk reactions. I'm still waiting for peeps to be more open about custom moves, too. So many options for every character that help mitigate bad matchups.

 

[lordvaati]

People should just play with Dash Klaw/Dash Slash before asking for buffs. A lot of Bowser's weaknesses are remedied from using these moves. And for his other weaknessess?

Well god forbid a character has weaknesses in the first place.

This. i mean, yo.....

 

[Mr. Bones]

You really don't even need the Custom Specials to be good with him. =o Which is good because they aren't exactly an answer when you participate in tournaments that are too afraid to legalize them.

The faux wavelanding is been pretty neat though.

 

[MrEh]

Never said that you need customs to be good with Bowser. Vex placed goddamn 7th at KTAR using Bowser/Mac/D3. I placed 4th at a much smaller event where I'm at.

Joking aside, there are people confusing disadvantageous matchups with being under-tuned. This will always lead to knee-jerk reactions. I'm still waiting for peeps to be more open about custom moves, too. So many options for every character that help mitigate bad matchups.

This.

The game is still new. Instead of discussing what should be changed, people need to actually try and learn their matchups and let the game solidify before we can accurately state what Bowser really needs. (if he needs anything at all)

A heavyweight struggling to deal with projectile characters is good game design. It's how the game is supposed to be!

 

[Raiden mk-II]

The game is still new. Instead of discussing what should be changed, people need to actually try and learn their matchups and let the game solidify before we can accurately state what Bowser really needs. (if he needs anything at all)

A heavyweight struggling to deal with projectile characters is good game design. It's how the game is supposed to be!

And that's what I do. I try to learn the matchups. Heck, I've gotten better at fighting Spamus Aran and Greninja, two well-known projectile camper characters. I'm not like certain people on this board who feel that just because Bowser has many disadvantageous matchups, it makes the character less viable. I have said repeatedly that Bowser's extreme killing power is offset by his lack of range and laggy attack speed. Those disadvantages must not be buffed or tweaked. It's like certain people are declaring it a sin for their favorite character to have so many disadvantages when they are totally warranted. The only tweaks I feel Bowser needs is higher priority on his laggier moves. After thinking about it more, the current D-smash is fine as it is. If it's meant to be used on hard reads, then so be it, that's how it's supposed to be used. It's not like all 51 characters' Forward Airs are meteor smashes like Mario's.

I wish those people will do something more constructive with their time, like learning the matchups. Not by criticizing the character as they are watching other people play as Bowser, but playing as Bowser themselves first and foremost.

 

[Mr. Bones]

I'm okay with Bowser personally. I'm just discussing this for the ****s and giggles. At got 4th at a tournament I went to recently and it's been my first in 4 months.

=p I honestly have no big problems with him. I've been enjoying his playstyle very thoroughly here. I think he's higher up than most people say.

 

[MrEh]

The only changes I want are the quality of life changes I listed previously.

Since those are things that SHOULD work. Kind of like how they fixed Ike's jab to actually combo. heh

 

[MagiusNecros]

The only changes I want are the quality of life changes I listed previously.

Since those are things that SHOULD work. Kind of like how they fixed Ike's jab to actually combo. heh

So for the jab do you mean the first punch should draw the opponent towards Bowser? If so I would like this. So I could do my Punch > Klaw, Punch > Grab and Punch > Bowser Bomb shenanigans.

 

[MrEh]

Not exactly draw your opponent towards Bowser, but more along the lines of leaving them where they are instead of knocking them away. That way Jab 2 will always combo.

Although if it did pull your opponent closer, that would be better for shenanigans. Heh.

 

[Karsticles]

I really just want two changes:
Klaw hitbox fixed.
Ledge snapping when backwards Distressing.

 

[S_B]

This. i mean, yo.....

They'll nerf it.

 

[S_B]

Joking aside, there are people confusing disadvantageous matchups with being under-tuned.

I don't think Bowser has any hugely disadvantageous matchups (like there's no true "Bowser counter" yet).

My concern falls more on the fact that A) the meta is still VERY young and B) they may just nerf away some of the best part of Bowser for the pure hell of it (mostly A, though).

There's also a distinct element of "fool me thrice, shame on me" that I'm trying to watch out for, here...

 

[Raiden mk-II]

I say to let the meta develop on its own and not worry about something you have no control over.

 

[Netherfall]

Bowser is in a good place as it stands. He has insane killing power, a good edgeguard game, lives pretty much forever, and hes actually fast now. If anything, he plays better defensively than offensively with how hard he can punish wiffs. In regards to D-Dmash, I've only ever used it for hard reads mainly when Fox or Falco side b back to stage. It does slightly more than fortress and is better to use than F-Smash since it covers both sides of Bowser. I don't really mind the change with Bowsercide as I rarely use side B outside of mixups, but that's just me. FB is a godsend for spacing and approaches on pretty much the entire cast and even makes RosaLuma (arguably our hardest matchup) doable.

My only problem with Bowser is what @ MrEh already stated. Make his jab 1 combo into 2. I'm conflicted on making both hits on Bomb guaranteed if the first hit connects. Obviously its great if they change it since the move kills so early, but I feel the move would be OP if its changed even with the huge risk involved if you wiff. It would give an additional option that we really don't need. It would essentially be a faster and stronger Shieldbreaker, albeit grounded.

Of course, we will have to see how the meta game evolves for anything conclusive, but he feels good now.

 

[MrEh]

My only problem with Bowser is what @ MrEh already stated. Make his jab 1 combo into 2. I'm conflicted on making both hits on Bomb guaranteed if the first hit connects. Obviously its great if they change it since the move kills so early, but I feel the move would be OP if its changed even with the huge risk involved if you wiff. It would give an additional option that we really don't need. It would essentially be a faster and stronger Shieldbreaker, albeit grounded.

They already made Bomb combo if you're close enough. For the sake of consistency, they either need to make it combo ALL the time or nerf the rising hit so it won't hit in situations where it won't combo.

 

[Anragon]

I find the first hit of Bowser Bomb pretty damn disjointed already. It punishes a lot of medium-laggy moves from a good distance.

 

[S_B]

So for the jab do you mean the first punch should draw the opponent towards Bowser? If so I would like this. So I could do my Punch > Klaw, Punch > Grab and Punch > Bowser Bomb shenanigans.

For the record, DK's first jab of his two hit combo seems to pull people closer to him, so yeah, it'd be great if Bowser could have this as well.