How can Bowser be improved?

[Raiden mk-II]

Discussions with other Bowser players like @ S_B has gotten me thinking about what kind of tweaks we would like to see our favorite Koopa King undergo. I finally understand that, while Bowser is so much better in Smash 4 than in past Smash games, he still has some quirks that render him easily punished, no matter the skill level of the player. Sure he can kill early (I killed a Sheik player from 18% to 52% damage), and he should rightfully be punished for that kind of killing power, but mechanics-wise, he has some flaws that leaves some things to be desired. Here's a list of quotes from other Bowser players poining out his mechanical flaws:

Every time Bowser trades with his attacks, a koopa troopa gains its wings.
C'mon, Sakurai. Reduce our clash frames a little. Reduce them for Ganon, too, while you're at it.

Also, I just realized something...

Know what I REALLY want for bomb? I want aerial bomb to be cancelable, ala Kirby's brick attack. I want to hit down B a second time and Bowser goes "Just kidding!" and returns to normal falling speed. THAT would make the move a billion times better, no SA required, and would allow Bowser players to avoid the #1 killer of Bowsers everywhere: being predictable.

What I'd like to see is a windbox on Dair and aerial Bomb (landing). Right now, it's insanely easy to punish these attacks to the point that no sane player would attempt to use them. It feels like a SH FB with good spacing is still a surprisingly good option because it doesn't make much of a commitment but still allows Bowser to go on the offensive.

Also, I WISH they had given him the "Tap B" to fireball and "Hold B" as standard FB as the default setup. Bowser being able to apply projectile pressure of his own (even if the range isn't amazing) would keep him from slipping down the tiers as well as give him some much needed options in the heat of battle...

I don't think that giving Bowser super armor is necessary, though higher priority on his slowest attacks would help since if you get hit by them, you deserve to be punished for it. And change D-Smash from being a immobile Fortress with more knockback and damage to something better, like a powerful ground stomp with a significant shockwave around him.

What other tweaks would you like to see Bowser undergo?

 

[Mr. Bones]

Personally the only problem I have is the down smash. If it was worth using as something more than a hard read, it'd be gravy. Bowser is great in this game, you just have to rely on safe pressure and a bit of patience to do well. Throw in an aggressive mix-up for the kill and you're good!

Oh, and the nerf to side-b is still silly. Should have never happened. =p

Jabs and fire are super important in the neutral game and great for spacing. His up-b and grab(especially the pivot grab with it's amazing range) are wonderful for catching rolls and falls. F-tilt can counter/go through other spaced attacks.

I just returned from the first tournament I've been to in 4 months but ended up in 4th place. :x Still made a nice showing and had a hype exhibition match at the end. Here's the archive:

http://www.twitch.tv/teamtally/b/591740491

My exhibition match (first to 5) is at the end right before the two 4v4 matches. I have some tournament matches peppered in the stream too. I lost to a Sonic, but I made some obvious mistakes in my approach in the MU now that I look at it.

 

[S_B]

At least we all agree that that Dsmash has GOT to be tweaked...

 

[Raiden mk-II]

I think counter moves are the biggest BS in this game.

 

[Jerodak]

I think counter moves are the biggest BS in this game.

Counters are fun when you figure out your prefered way to beat them, my absolute favorite method is charging Fsmash till the counter frames are gone. It's probably one of the best ways to end a game, and you'll definitely psych them out for sure, nothing says "I'm in your head" like being able to just use a smash attack to beat someone's counter attempt. In fact, whenever I meet a player willing to counter, especially in neutral, I make a game of it. Depending on the player, I can usually get the punish once a game, I like to save it for the end, because then they won't be thinking that I might Fsmash them and they are also more likely to panic counter, and by then it's almost too easy. Try it out sometime, it may change your opinion on fighting counter characters.

And in the case of Mac counter, you can can use his own counter to gimp him as long as you hit him from an angle that'll make him face off stage when lunging forward with the counter punch, but that's just mean.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Permanent Shellguard on well his shell. And buff Tough Guy pls. Yeah thanks.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Buff Tough Guy so that it shrugs off all medium-light projectiles like Mario's Fireballs and Falco's laser. Though that might be too much. Realistically, don't make Tough Guy so that Bowser looks like he's doing his best impression of Neo from The Matrix while slogging through molasses in a cold winter day. Don't make it slow him down that much.

@ J Jerodak Nothing's more fun than baiting a counter-happy player. It is just that I feel they gave too many characters counter moves in Smash 4.

I'd also like to see a Smash Bros game where they don't treat Wario and Toad like jokes.

 

[S_B]

Permanent Shellguard on well his shell. And buff Tough Guy pls. Yeah thanks.

I'd be happy with Tough Guy not sending Bowser into "Matrix Mode" while he's being peppered with weak attacks...

 

[MagiusNecros]

I'd be happy with Tough Guy not sending Bowser into "Matrix Mode" while he's being peppered with weak attacks...

Yeah the whole no flinching thing is really a joke. Give me Giga Bowser no flinching until I get to 50% or 100%. It says you shrug off weak attacks but for the most part, no one has those.

I mean I can get a better effect with the SA on Warlock Punch.

 

[MrEh]

If a character is average or mid-tier, that doesn't mean they need buffs. It means they're fine the way they are. Not EVERY move in a character's arsenal needs to be good. If you want my honest opinion on what should be slightly TWEAKED with Bowser for the sake of fairness, here it is.

• Fix Jabs so that Jab 1 will always combo into Jab 2. You should not be punished for spacing Jab 1 properly.
• Fix the rising hit of Bowser Bomb to always combo into the Bomb itself. Same deal with Jabs really.
• Adjust the autoguard on Bowser's shell so that instead of absorbing a single hit, it absorbs as long as the hitbox is active. This will keep the move essentially the same while stopping weird interactions like ZSS's Dair flying through your Usmash and hitting you.

C'mon, Sakurai. Reduce our clash frames a little. Reduce them for Ganon, too, while you're at it.

This I feel should be a universal change versus a change for just Bowser/Ganon. When moves clash, the character with the weaker move should suffer longer clanking frames than the other. Since that makes sense.

Know what I REALLY want for bomb? I want aerial bomb to be cancelable, ala Kirby's brick attack. I want to hit down B a second time and Bowser goes "Just kidding!" and returns to normal falling speed. THAT would make the move a billion times better, no SA required, and would allow Bowser players to avoid the #1 killer of Bowsers everywhere: being predictable.

The move is supposed to be high risk high reward. If you land the aerial version of Bomb, that means your properly read your opponent. And in most cases, you were rewarded appropriately with like 20 damage and maybe a low percent kill. Being able to cancel this kind of move when the situation looks unfavorable is a very toxic mechanic.

What I'd like to see is a windbox on Dair and aerial Bomb (landing). Right now, it's insanely easy to punish these attacks to the point that no sane player would attempt to use them. It feels like a SH FB with good spacing is still a surprisingly good option because it doesn't make much of a commitment but still allows Bowser to go on the offensive

God forbid some characters have powerful moves that are easy to punish if you miss.

 

[S_B]

If a character is average or mid-tier, that doesn't mean they need buffs. It means they're fine the way they are. Not EVERY move in a character's arsenal needs to be good. If you want my honest opinion on what should be slightly TWEAKED with Bowser for the sake of fairness, here it is.

• Fix Jabs so that Jab 1 will always combo into Jab 2. You should not be punished for spacing Jab 1 properly.
• Fix the rising hit of Bowser Bomb to always combo into the Bomb itself. Same deal with Jabs really.
• Adjust the autoguard on Bowser's shell so that instead of absorbing a single hit, it absorbs as long as the hitbox is active. This will keep the move essentially the same while stopping weird interactions like ZSS's Dair flying through your Usmash and hitting you.

I agree with these, but it's not a question of every move being good so much as not having moves that are blatantly redundant and worse like Dsmash.

The move is supposed to be high risk high reward. If you land the aerial version of Bomb, that means your properly read your opponent. And in most cases, you were rewarded appropriately with like 20 damage and maybe a low percent kill. Being able to cancel this kind of move when the situation looks unfavorable is a very toxic mechanic.

Works fine for Kirby with his ability to cancel it. In fact, it's good for baiting opponents, but still comes with its own risk because the actual CANCELING of the move also makes Kirby vulnerable, especially if his opponent is expecting it.

God forbid some characters have powerful moves that are easy to punish if you miss.

My issue is not so much that these moves are easy to punish but that they overlap in functionality in a number of ways. If we're going to have two moves that both speed Bowser to the stage, it'd be nice if one of them was far less punishable, be it through faster recovery, the ability to cancel it or a windbox/larger shockwave on landing.

However, the only change I'd absolutely want to see for Bowser is a change to Dsmash to differentiate it from fortress, as right now it's just a stationary, laggier version of fortress with slightly more damage.

 

[Knee Smasher]

I'd be happy if they increased Whirling Fortress's knockback such that it's as much as it was in SSBM.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

An idea for an improved D-smash for Bowser that keeps the current one's multi-hit property. Bowser does quick multiple heavy stomps, with each stomp generating a small localized shockwave that makes opponents flinch and does 1 or 2% damage. The final stomp is a massive stomp that sends opponents flying. To compensate for the increased range of the shockwaves, this new Down Smash can only affect opponents standing on the ground, much like DK's ground slap move.

Smash 4 already gave us a mighty dropkick (F-Smash), an aerial mule kick (B-air), an aerial headbutt (U-air), and a silly-looking cartwheel (N-air). It would make sense for his D smash to see a redesign too.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Raiden mk-II Spin to win, tho.

 

[MrEh]

I agree with these, but it's not a question of every move being good so much as not having moves that are blatantly redundant and worse like Dsmash.

Dsmash is a worse overall move than Fortress by far, but it is not redundant. Dsmash does actual damage and can kill at high percents, wheras Fortress does little damage and doesn't kill until unreasonably high percents. If Dsmash did less damage than Fortress and never killed, then yes it would be redundant. However, that is not the case.

Works fine for Kirby with his ability to cancel it. In fact, it's good for baiting opponents, but still comes with its own risk because the actual CANCELING of the move also makes Kirby vulnerable, especially if his opponent is expecting it.

Just because a mechanic is balanced on one character does not mean that it is balanced on another. Kirby is a character designed around air mobility, so him having the ability to cancel out of his stone makes sense.

My issue is not so much that these moves are easy to punish but that they overlap in functionality in a number of ways. If we're going to have two moves that both speed Bowser to the stage, it'd be nice if one of them was far less punishable, be it through faster recovery, the ability to cancel it or a windbox/larger shockwave on landing.

However, the only change I'd absolutely want to see for Bowser is a change to Dsmash to differentiate it from fortress, as right now it's just a stationary, laggier version of fortress with slightly more damage.

Moves with similar functionality have existed since the beginning of time in fighting games. Sometimes that makes one of the moves entirely useless. However, both Dair and Bomb have slightly different onstage uses.

A Dsmash knockback buff would be nice since the move's reward is disproportionate to the effort required to land it though.

 

[S_B]

Dsmash is a worse overall move than Fortress by far, but it is not redundant. Dsmash does actual damage and can kill at high percents, wheras Fortress does little damage and doesn't kill until unreasonably high percents. If Dsmash did less damage than Fortress and never killed, then yes it would be redundant. However, that is not the case.

I call it redundant because fortress and Dsmash have identical or near identical hitboxes. I would rather Dsmash offer Bowser something unique in the way of hitboxes.

Just because a mechanic is balanced on one character does not mean that it is balanced on another. Kirby is a character designed around air mobility, so him having the ability to cancel out of his stone makes sense.

For the record, I have no expectation that they'll do this, but it WOULD better differentiate aerial bomb and Dair.

Moves with similar functionality have existed since the beginning of time in fighting games. Sometimes that makes one of the moves entirely useless. However, both Dair and Bomb have slightly different onstage uses.

And "slightly different" isn't going to cut it in a game where most of the rest of the cast doesn't have this level of move redundancy.

Any tier list is going to come down to OPTIONS, especially in a game like SSB where success is earned through choosing to put the right hitbox out at the right time. Not only do options grant the player more of a selection of moves to apply to the each situation, but they also force their opponent to consider the differences in those moves when factoring in the player's approach.

I realize that Dair and bomb behave slightly differently, but ultimately, they're both moves that send Bowser swiftly to the stage and cause him to spend a long time (relatively speaking) recovering afterwards.

The same goes for fortress and Dsmash: exact same hitbox with slightly different effects.

I'd much rather Bowser have different hitboxes in both of these cases as that increases the options at his disposal.

A Dsmash knockback buff would be nice since the move's reward is disproportionate to the effort required to land it though.

It would have to be fairly massive to be worth it. Dsmash does ~5% more if all hits land and its knockback isn't THAT much better than fortress.

Again, I'd rather have a completely different hitbox for this attack because it's just one less option that we have to use right now...

 

[Raiden mk-II]

I use Down Smash to edgeguard. It sometimes knocks people at an angle that I can then follow up with a Forward Smash offstage to KO. D-Smash may be problematic, but it does have its uses.

 

[S_B]

I use Down Smash to edgeguard. It sometimes knocks people at an angle that I can then follow up with a Forward Smash offstage to KO. D-Smash may be problematic, but it does have its uses.

I think Bones showed us the best edgeguard Bowser has, that being his Dtilt.

He plays an AMAZING Bowser, if you've not watched the tourney vids, BTW.

 

[MrEh]

Some characters are balanced around having less options. The options they DO have are disproportionally better to compensate. (see: Snake, Little Mac, any friggin grappler ever)

A character having similar moves is fine as long as the character works as a whole. Again, not every move needs to be useful. A character having less varied moves isn't a bad thing. It honestly doesn't matter as long as the character is fine overall.

Also, out of all the complaining I see about useless moves, it's interesting that no one has brought up Nair.

 

[Karsticles]

I just want Bowser to cling to ledges in Fortress while backwards.

 

[Karsticles]

I think Bones showed us the best edgeguard Bowser has, that being his Dtilt.

He plays an AMAZING Bowser, if you've not watched the tourney vids, BTW.

Where can I find these vids? I still haven't seen a great Bowser.

 

[Jerodak]

I still like Dsmash, despite it's weaknesses

Some characters are balanced around having less options. The options they DO have are disproportionally better to compensate. (see: Snake, Little Mac, any friggin grappler ever)

A character having similar moves is fine as long as the character works as a whole. Again, not every move needs to be useful. A character having less varied moves isn't a bad thing. It honestly doesn't matter as long as the character is fine overall.

Also, out of all the complaining I see about useless moves, it's interesting that no one has brought up Nair.

I agree with what MrEh is saying here, while Bowser may not be able to just throw out hitboxes like some other characters can, he has all the tools he needs to win, he has a good number of decisive attacks that greatly reward being able to make the proper reads with him.

Nair isn't so bad, but like Dsmash, it's just sort of a niche move. It's a defensive aerial, basically what you do with it is you throw it out a little earlier than you'd throw your other aerials then you want to fast fall into your opponent, basically they have to space completely different against you now unless they have a large disjointed hitbox. When you pull it off properly, then you'll either trade or win depending on how good their spacing was to start with and what you're using it against. It's also good in the Ness match up or any match-up where a character tries to set-up landing traps or hit you offstage with anything that can be klanked by jab. You can opt to Nair over air dodging which has the advantage of allowing you to land without having to fast fall if you don't want to, and actually removes the projectile from the equation. It also reflects Gordos, which is very useful if you aren't sure which angle it'll hit you from. Outside of that, there's not much else that it does well unless you get the third hit.

 

[MrEh]

Scratch that. "Useless" is a bit of a strong word. It's definitely Bowser's weakest move though.

Useless is more in line with Brawl/Melee Dair.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

15-20% off of a Nair is something I'll take.

 

[Mr. Bones]

I think Bones showed us the best edgeguard Bowser has, that being his Dtilt.

He plays an AMAZING Bowser, if you've not watched the tourney vids, BTW.

D-tilt is great to keep fresh. It has little end lag and you can simply threaten it by crouching and waiting.

Falling with someone and catching them with U-air after an airdodge is good too.

Also, can we talk about how awesome it is to play with controller vibrate on? Feels vicious while Bowser is running/hitting people.

Where can I find these vids? I still haven't seen a great Bowser.

I posted the stream I was on in my first post on this page. I have a few matches peppered through it. Just look for the Pink Hair Bowser...actually I was the only Bowser on stream anyway.

Scratch that. "Useless" is a bit of a strong word. It's definitely Bowser's weakest move though.

Nair is pretty unimpressive as a stand-alone move, but it can catch some air-dodges and pop people up a bit for a Bair/Fair setup.

 

[Karsticles]

I feel like Nair has secret potential that will be unlocked when we figure out its hitbox. I have had it do some strangely great things.

I love love love the controller vibration when running with Bowser.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

N-air looks goofy for Bowser; it's a silly looking cartwheel. But it is a good move and it seems to have disjoints. I've knocked ZSS out of her Down Air with it once.

I think it's a better move than his previous N-air, a shellspin.

 

[Hitman JT]

I love n-air. It's goofy, it does great damage for such a goofy move, and it makes the D3 match-up infinitely more bearable.

 

[Jerodak]

The best thing I've ever done with Nair is K.O Sonic off the top when he rose into me with his up b. It was like he passed through one of the speed boosters in his own games.

 

[S_B]

Some characters are balanced around having less options. The options they DO have are disproportionally better to compensate. (see: Snake, Little Mac, any friggin grappler ever)

A character having similar moves is fine as long as the character works as a whole. Again, not every move needs to be useful. A character having less varied moves isn't a bad thing. It honestly doesn't matter as long as the character is fine overall.

Also, out of all the complaining I see about useless moves, it's interesting that no one has brought up Nair.

I see where you're coming from and I agree to an extent, but I feel like the double redundancy Bowser has is going to hurt him in the long meta game, especially after the projectile game has REALLY developed. That's when we'll be wishing Bowser's Dair and bomb did something a little more different, as well as his Dsmash and fortress.

And I don't think Nair is useless: it's one of the better airdodge punishers I've seen so far (and you KNOW you can expect an airdodge when you rise up to meet an opponent who is going to do everything they can to avoid being hit by the headbutt of doom).

Bones used it a few times to pretty good effect. I'd say it's WAY more useful than Dsmash, currently...

 

[MrEh]

I see where you're coming from and I agree to an extent, but I feel like the double redundancy Bowser has is going to hurt him in the long meta game, especially after the projectile game has REALLY developed. That's when we'll be wishing Bowser's Dair and bomb did something a little more different, as well as his Dsmash and fortress.

Dsmash being different from Fortress and Dair/Bomb being different doesn't do anything in a projectile based matchup. So that's not relevant.

And I don't think Nair is useless: it's one of the better airdodge punishers I've seen so far (and you KNOW you can expect an airdodge when you rise up to meet an opponent who is going to do everything they can to avoid being hit by the headbutt of doom).

Or you could just Fair instead. It's just as fast, safer, and has much better reward for successfully landing it.

 

[S_B]

Dsmash being different from Fortress and Dair/Bomb being different doesn't do anything in a projectile based matchup. So that's not relevant.

Every additional hitbox option Bowser has will help him in the long run. If they replaced his Dair with a hitbox that's good for approaching, that would help in a HUGE way against projectile campers, or if they did something awesome like allow his Dsmash to slide along the stage, negating projectiles hit it as it went (and no, I don't expect them to do either of these ).

More than anything, every option will be one more way Bowser could possibly attack, thus increasing the number of potential approaches opponents need to account for, automatically making him less predictable. Again, predictability is any player's worst enemy and Bowser will be going against characters who DO have unique options for all of their moves.

Or you could just Fair instead. It's just as fast, safer, and has much better reward for successfully landing it.

Except that they can airdodge the Fair and won't have a hitbox waiting for them when they come out of it, sure.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

@ S_B , I see where you're coming from, but @ MrEh has a point. If Bowser cannot kill early and had low speed, then yes he would be in dire need of new options. This was the case for Melee Bowser and Brawl Bowser, as both those versions of Bowser left a lot to be desired. Smash 4 Bowser's main threat is his mere presence on the battlefield, and he's had the agility and the recovery buffs he so needed so much. He also had his KO power increased. Why do you think people want to kill Bowser as early as possible? Because players know by now that Bowser can kill early.

I feel Bowser is a totally balanced character. Extreme power offset by crippling lag in his kill moves and his landings. Good players will know how to compensate for Bowser's weakness. This does not make fighting against good players any easier, but at least it gives good Bowser players chances to minimize their mistakes and openings. @ Mr. Bones is an amazing Bowser player, but even he admits he makes mistakes, as he said in the post where he linked to a Twitch tourney he was part of.

The only tweaks I feel Bowser needs is near-top priority on his kill moves (no super armor) and a significant buff to his Down Smash.

 

[S_B]

I'll paraphrase something Mr.Eh said not too long ago in reply: The problem isn't that Bowser doesn't have more room to grow, he does. It's just that other characters have so much MORE room to grow that will be the issue.

I say Bowser needs as many options in his moveset as he can get because he still lacks a means of putting pressure on enemies from afar, and that in and of itself is going to be a HUGE setback in the long run because many opponents WILL have a means of putting pressure on him.

Honestly, Bones' Bowser gives the most hope I've ever seen, and yes, of course he makes mistakes (everyone does or no one would ever get hit, ever) but his opponents are making them, too.

The real question is this: months from now, after the meta for all of these other characters has been fleshed out, how badly will Bowser be hurting for those extra options? Barely, leaving him at mid-high tier? A little, leaving him mid-tier? Or a lot, sliding him to low tier?

Also, characters that can kill at lower percentages are always favored earlier in the meta. It's not until later on that they usually have issues.

In any case, we all seem to be in general agreement: buff Bowser's Dsmash. If the meta evolves to a point where Bowser is getting his scaly ass handed to him constantly on FG, it's time to start looking at buffing some of his other moves or changing them outright.

I actually like Dair more than aerial bomb because A) if an enemy chases you into the air, you have a much better chance of hitting them with it before they air dodge, B) the priority on the move SEEMS to be VERY high: I feel like I've been knocked out of Dair way fewer times than aerial bomb and C) if an enemy is high enough and you Dair to the stage, even if they airdodge, there's still a very good chance that you'll have recovered from the move and have enough time to shield before they can make it back to the stage and punish you, making it at least safe to use on a chasing enemy.

Also, I once saw a Bowser losing a FG match to a ROB. With both down to one stock and Bowser hanging from the ledge, ROB dropped below him and Bowser Daired to spike him and win the match. Not applicable often, but it's pretty damn neat when you can land an all-or-nothing spike like that...

 

[Karsticles]

It would be cool if dsmash reflected projectiles.

 

[S_B]

It would be cool if dsmash reflected projectiles.

Yes... yes it would...

That would make the move VERY different in functionality, despite having an identical hitbox.

And hey, if Fox spinning his Arwing in a circle quickly can deflect lasers, there's no reason Bowser's shell couldn't do the same, right?

 

[Raiden mk-II]

For Glory is not the only way to play Smash 4, you know. I think Sakurai screwed the pooch in thinking that playing with no items on boring flat stages is the only way "competitive" Smashers play. He should revise Omega stages to have platforms like battlefield. I am tired of running into Macs who abuse FG mode.

 

[Anragon]

Bowser doesn't need anything tbh. He's one of the most balanced characters.

As a personal change I would have give him a foot stomp Spike as his D-air.

 

[S_B]

For Glory is not the only way to play Smash 4, you know.

Of course, but that's where Nintendo is more than likely gathering their data from.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Of course, but that's where Nintendo is more than likely gathering their data from.

Actually if they get their data from anything it might be Conquest coupled with the "Smash" modes. Dunno if they pay attention to 1v1.