Hitstun and thoughts

[Viceversa96]

Please remove the 16 frames of hitstun for every attack you get hit by add more hitstun please (Not N64 Hitstun though). That was my main problem with brawl. I wouldn't mind the removal of L-canceling, directional air-dodges, and other advanced techniques if they make each move had their own amount of hitstun. It was extremely hard for a lot of characters to combo in Brawl because of how much slower everything is and every move having the same hitstun. I'm really hoping this will be the most balanced and fun Smash game where every character has a chance and appeals to both casual and competitive players alike. I would love to see Smash 4 make it to EVO and Apex with a variety of people maining different characters instead of people always choosing Fox (Melee) or Meta Knight (Brawl). Who's with me! Who wants this to finally be the best Smash Game where the stupid casual vs. competitive arguments end because this game will hopefully appeal to both! As a person of the Smash community I'm hoping we will all come together. Don't leave me hanging.

 

[Renji64]

I really hope L-canceling is in it isn't gamebreaking and it is very useful i can understand why wavedashing is gone. Removing AT's just shows the casual fanbase is the primary target anyway if there is nothing else to learn but the basics it will be just as dull as brawl was. Melee helped me progress as a player.

 

[Viceversa96]

I'm hoping this will be the best Smash game. I think Sakuraii might be working with Namco to help balancing.

 

[IhaveSonar]

My primary wish for Smash 4 is to have Melee-like hitstun again. Stringing individual moves together by reading DI and reacting accordingly to finish someone off in a flashy manner is the best part about Smash for me; it's the reason why I converted to Project Melee from Brawl. Proper hitstun would make Sm4sh an instant sell for me.

 

[Viceversa96]

My primary wish for Smash 4 is to have Melee-like hitstun again. Stringing individual moves together by reading DI and reacting accordingly to finish someone off in a flashy manner is the best part about Smash for me; it's the reason why I converted to Project Melee from Brawl. Proper hitstun would make Sm4sh an instant sell for me.

I agree. Does anyone now specifically why Namco is working with the Smash team?

 

[Zzuxon]

I think they said it's for balancing.

 

[Hong]

Smash Bros is not a true fighting game, but much of the same philosophy applies. With that said, having a team more familiar with the genre is always a good idea. With Brawl it was a mixed staff, many of them being their first time working on a retail game, so regardless of general design direction I couldn't help but feel it slowed development down. Also, having the people from Tales and Soul Calibur on board are an added plus. I would imagine it was just a result of wanting people with actual experience this time... Mr. Sakurai had too much to handle with the last two entries, so I imagine he simply didn't want to have to shoulder so heavy a burden again. It's not healthy and it was destroying him.

Personally I would love SSB64 hitstun, though I know that will never happen, and I know that nearly everyone (understandably) would be against it. With that said, Melee had it right. Not every character should be able to combo, but there there should be some kind of momentum and greater level of punishment. I don't like how everyone lives longer and longer with each entry as it just means we play with fewer stocks. I feel things are less intensive when there are tighter potential stock discrepancies.

 

[Hippopotasauce]

Smash 64 I liked because the hitstun was ridiculous.

Of course I've never played competitively so I don't know what an extravagant amount of hitstun entails.

 

[Hong]

Smash 64 I liked because the hitstun was ridiculous.

Of course I've never played competitively so I don't know what an extravagant amount of hitstun entails.

I still play SSB64 today. Basically every character has 0% -> death combos. Of course there were varying levels of applicability, where as characters such as Samus or Link were more situational, and Fox, Pikachu or Falcon could basically always combo you in any given situation at lower percentages by making the right decisions. Coincidentally, the characters who lacked this practicality to begin said death combos are at the bottom of the tier list.

it doesn't bother me much. Sometimes it seems like five stocks = five mistakes you can make, which is not so bad. Matches on average are about three minutes, where as a stomp ends in about two. Felt ideal for me.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Iirc Brawls hitstun is like Melees. The problem was you can cancel it by attacking or airdodging.

I would love for the game to incorporate one attack for every character with fixed knockback, like Fox's shine, to be that attack that "you want to avoid." Every other attack could be nice combo extenders and spike, vertical, and star KO finishers.

Just imagine...

 

[Ghostbone]

Iirc Brawls hitstun is like Melees. The problem was you can cancel it by attacking or airdodging.

This is correct
It gets a little more complex, because there's knockback that sends you into tumble, and knocback that doesn't.
If you're not sent into tumble (knockback is below a certain threshold), you can't DI at all, and you can't cancel the hitstun. This is why early u-tilt strings work on a lot of characters, MK can up-air string people, and the reason every chain-grab in Brawl exists. (ICs are an exception, their chain-grab works because you grab as soon as they get thrown)
When you're sent into tumble, you can DI, and you can cancel your hitstun with an air-dodge or an aerial (you can air-dodge earlier than you can aerial). The delay before you can cancel your hitstun is the same no matter what the regular hitstun of the move would be (as an interesting side-point, the natural hitstun of Brawl is exactly the same as in melee), so your effective hitstun doesn't increase at all as knockback/% increases.

 

[Viceversa96]

Iirc Brawls hitstun is like Melees. The problem was you can cancel it by attacking or airdodging.

I would love for the game to incorporate one attack for every character with fixed knockback, like Fox's shine, to be that attack that "you want to avoid." Every other attack could be nice combo extenders and spike, vertical, and star KO finishers.

Just imagine...

That would be great

 

[Viceversa96]

Sorry for the double post

This is correct
It gets a little more complex, because there's knockback that sends you into tumble, and knocback that doesn't.
If you're not sent into tumble (knockback is below a certain threshold), you can't DI at all, and you can't cancel the hitstun. This is why early u-tilt strings work on a lot of characters, MK can up-air string people, and the reason every chain-grab in Brawl exists. (ICs are an exception, their chain-grab works because you grab as soon as they get thrown)
When you're sent into tumble, you can DI, and you can cancel your hitstun with an air-dodge or an aerial (you can air-dodge earlier than you can aerial). The delay before you can cancel your hitstun is the same no matter what the regular hitstun of the move would be (as an interesting side-point, the natural hitstun of Brawl is exactly the same as in melee), so your effective hitstun doesn't increase at all as knockback/% increases.

The point is I want character to get realistically stunned depending on which attack they get hit by like in Melee. In Brawl it takes forever for a lot of characters to die because of that stupid momentum canceling thing which made a lot of characters who don't have fast and efficient moves that string into fast kill moves like Meta Knight does terrible. Meta Knight is so good he has his own tier because he can combo and kill effectively and has a good, unpredictable recovery. Now I thought to myself NERF META KNIGHT but now I say make everyone as good as Meta-Knight. Instead of nerfing characters make the other ones better.

 

[Lemonwater]

I don't think you want them to remove the hitstun. That would mean THERE IS NO HITSTUN.

But, seriously, yes, more proportional hitstun would be a great thing. No N64 level hitstun, though.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

There should be enough hitstun for players to actually "combo" an opponent but not too much hitstun to where it's in the degree of 64 Smash.

 

[Viceversa96]

I don't think you want them to remove the hitstun. That would mean THERE IS NO HITSTUN.

But, seriously, yes, more proportional hitstun would be a great thing. No N64 level hitstun, though.

I fix the OP because I want increased hitstun and I didn't word it right.

 

[Snakeyes]

This is correct
It gets a little more complex, because there's knockback that sends you into tumble, and knocback that doesn't.
If you're not sent into tumble (knockback is below a certain threshold), you can't DI at all, and you can't cancel the hitstun. This is why early u-tilt strings work on a lot of characters, MK can up-air string people, and the reason every chain-grab in Brawl exists. (ICs are an exception, their chain-grab works because you grab as soon as they get thrown)
When you're sent into tumble, you can DI, and you can cancel your hitstun with an air-dodge or an aerial (you can air-dodge earlier than you can aerial). The delay before you can cancel your hitstun is the same no matter what the regular hitstun of the move would be (as an interesting side-point, the natural hitstun of Brawl is exactly the same as in melee), so your effective hitstun doesn't increase at all as knockback/% increases.

Very informative post, thanks dude.

So basically, what we should really be asking for is for the game to allow DI in a non-tumble state and the removal of garbage mechanics like hitstun and momentum canceling during tumble.

Can you comment on how gravity works differently in Melee and Brawl?

 

[IhaveSonar]

I vote that we send letters via Nintendo's "contact us" on their website stating that we wish for Melee-like hitstun mechanics; if enough people do so, word may trickle over to Sakurai.

Do it politely, of course.

Here is mine as an example:

This letter regards the gameplay mechanics of the upcoming Super Smash Bros for Wii U. Smash is without a doubt my favorite series; all three games released thus far are spectacular titles that I hold dear to my heart. However, I do have one major criticism of Brawl's gameplay: the ability to cancel out of hitstun.

In Smash 64 and Melee, when a character is hit, they enter a period called "hitstun" in which they are temporarily immobilized from taking any action; this period lasts no more than a second or two and allows the opposing players to follow up with other attacks. This mechanic allows for extended combos and engaging, offensive gameplay. However, in brawl, characters can cancel out of hitstun incredibly early by airdodging or attacking, effectively rendering the stun useless and ruining any sort of offensive followup. This results in rather defensive gameplay; Mr. Sakurai himself has commented on how online brawls devolve into waiting for someone else to make the first move and never following up on your own. Reverting to Melee or 64 hitstun mechanics would solve this defensive problem by making offense more viable and make the game overall more exciting to play.

Please ensure that this information is relayed to Mr. Sakurai. He may be following a similar thought process already, which would obviously delight me and many others who hold similar sentiments. Regardless of how he chooses to develop the game, he deserves congratulations for consistently producing such excellence in spite of his injury.

 

[Snakeyes]

I vote that we send letters via Nintendo's "contact us" on their website stating that we wish for Melee-like hitstun mechanics; if enough people do so, word may trickle over to Sakurai.

Do it politely, of course.

Miiverse is great for getting their attention as well.

 

[Viceversa96]

Miiverse ehh?

 

[Snakeyes]

You could also tweet to Sakurai himself... if you know Japanese.

 

[JOE!]

Anybody else notice in vids that when hit hard enough to produce the "glowy trail" that they cannot act out of it until the trail vanishes? Food for thought...

 

[ImaClubYou]

Anybody else notice in vids that when hit hard enough to produce the "glowy trail" that they cannot act out of it until the trail vanishes? Food for thought...

That's not absolute fact, however.

What I do notice is that some attacks send opponents in low arching angles. Regardless of percentage that's a good thing.

 

[Viceversa96]

That's not absolute fact, however.

What I do notice is that some attacks send opponents in low arching angles. Regardless of percentage that's a good thing.

I think a lot of attacks have increased knockback. In Sakuraii's match vs. his translator Mario's Down smash killed at 90%. I think they gave it more power than Doc's.

 

[Big-Cat]

I think hitstun and blockstun need to be individually determined instead of following some principle. Also, having non-DI and fixed knockback moves would be an interesting change.

 

[ImaClubYou]

I think a lot of attacks have increased knockback. In Sakuraii's match vs. his translator Mario's Down smash killed at 90%. I think they gave it more power than Doc's.

I'm really hoping that's just beta testing. That Down Smash seems way to strong for what it's worth.

 

[Viceversa96]

I'm really hoping that's just beta testing. That Down Smash seems way to strong for what it's worth.

Why would you want Mario to suck again? Also remember that it killed at 90% with poor DI

 

[mimgrim]

Just get rid of hitstun cancle and most people will end up being pleased with that. :/

 

[ImaClubYou]

Why would you want Mario to suck again? Also remember that it killed at 90% with poor DI

Oh. I misread that. I saw you type down the Sakurai review and my mind instantly remembered Mega Man doing something like 40% with his down smash.

Sorry.

 

[Viceversa96]

Oh. I misread that. I saw you type down the Sakurai review and my mind instantly remembered Mega Man doing something like 40% with his down smash.

Sorry.

Lol that's alright.

 

[grizby2]

hit-stun is okay if its not overdone. my main beef with it is that some characters have no need/CAN'T utilize hit-stun, (such as grapplers). and some characters that really don't NEED it can potentially abuse it. if theres any heavy hit-stun, it should be given to the correct characters on the right moves accordingly.

 

[DRM4R10]

btw not everyone uses fox in melee, the people who win aren't always playing as fox., and in recent national tournaments, the top 8 usually have one fox player and occasionally 2 or 3. it's not as brawl where sometimes half the people use meta knight. I was you, I would've said people use the same 6-8 characters.

 

[IhaveSonar]

Nintendo sent me this in response to my aforementioned letter:

Thanks for writing, and I apologize for the delay in our response as we are currently receiving more email than usual. I appreciate your excitement and enthusiasm for the release of Super Smash Bros. While I'm not able to forward your message to Mr. Sakurai, I will make sure the appropriate departments at Nintendo are aware that you want this feature added to the game.

Ultimately, the decision of what to include in a game rests solely with the development team, so there's no way we can say what will or won't be included in the final product. Rest assured, however, that those who are currently designing and programming Super Smash Bros. are among the best in the industry, tasked with creating the most enjoyable gaming experience possible.

As we get closer to the game's launch date, you can count on more information being revealed at our website (www.nintendo.com). Stay tuned!

Sincerely,

Jason Smith
Nintendo of America Inc.

So they will receive information and relay it to the appropriate recipients. Do send them wishlists for Sm4sh.

 

[mimgrim]

Nintendo sent me this in response to my aforementioned letter:



So they will receive information and relay it to the appropriate recipients. Do send them wishlists for Sm4sh.

Sounds like a generic response to me.

 

[IhaveSonar]

Perhaps, but I did reach an actual person and they did respond to my specific inquiry, so it's worth something. It can only help.​

 

[[Corn]]

Id be curious as to how the game will be with the Floatiness of Brawl and non cancelable hitstun.

I particularly dont enjoy extreme hitstun, such as in 64. But at some times I feel that hitstun in melee is a bit much too. Honestly existed for what it will be.

 

[IhaveSonar]

I'd be more interested in the mixture of melee hitstun and brawl airdodges.

That would still allow combos but also incorporate the reads and baits of brawl's airdodging system. That would be a nice compromise of the two metagames.