Hence's ZSS Journey: Month One

[Hence]

This thread is going to be somewhat of a collaboration of questions, ideas, and my general imput about ZSS.
You can find my previous thread here.


First of all, I live in a town that's stuck in melee. From what I have heard, the melee scene was huge in Columbus; not Brawl...
Although I did manage to go to one tournament in my first month, I only have two friends to play on a regular basis. The tournament was fun, and I learned a lot. Mostly that you shouldn't learn Zero Suit Samus on Wi-Fi because your entire moveset revolves around Down+B, Dash Attack, U-Smash, D-Smash, Paralzyer, and Plasma Whip. Needless to say, I didn't know what a tilt was until I picked up ZSS. I didn't play for about three days after the tournament because I had played so poorly. Watching so many videos of the best players was going to help, or so I thought. At this time I started to realize that I had not only neglected most of my moveset, but practically all of the basics of Brawl. Before I progressed any further with Zero Suit Samus, I knew I had to master these five things:

1. Movement
2. DI
3. Variety
4. Shielding & Dodging
5. Lower Level AT's

Movement is an immense part of any good player's game. I watched and observed Reflex, Dazwa, Snakeee, Chu, and Azen in every video I could find, in order to create the best pattern of movement achievable. Take Azen for example, the only way I could see a Lucario play well is by turtling or camping for a large majority of the game. Watching Azen's movement made me realize that starting every approach with an attack can be the most detemental aspect to a new player's game. Think about it, mid-attack you can't dodge, shield, or jump! Your opponent is also much more likely to find flaws and exploit them much faster. Making slight, and often variable approaches helps to better one's overall unpredictability.

Variety is also essential if one hopes to become unpredictable. I then decided to take notes on Zero Suit Samus' entire moveset, this is the part where I need your help. This data is strictly observational, and attacks like U-Smash I am still very unsure about.

Moveset Notes:
Plasma Whip (Spacing/Damaging/KOing)

Paralyzer (Spacing/Mindgames/Useful Edge Game [upon recovery] - Using this too often and not reacting quickly enough can hurt. Limit this to mindgames or when the opponent is least expecting it. )

U-air (Juggling Heavies/Damaging/KO's)

Bair(KO's – This may be your last option for a KO if you’ve used your Plasma Whip too often. You can cancel a dash, turn around and Bair. You could also Dsmash once and turn around to bair.)

Jab x1 (Attack/Frame Interruption - RARELY used to combo into a Dtilt or Ftilt. Jab x3 can be easily shieldgrabbed.)

D-smash (Charged after a Roll/Recovery/ or Predictable Attack - Random Dsmash spam can slow down your game and become VERY predictable. However, learning to use this exceptional attack at the right times can up your game exponentially.)(Dsmash x2 + Utilt/ Dsmash x2+USmash/ Dsmash x1 + Bair/ Dsmash x1 +Nair/ Dsmash x1 + Flip Kick/Bair while the opponent is recovering. There are a plethora of these combonations, but I have listed some of the most common.)

U-tilt (After a dodge/Jab hitstun interruption)

Dash Attack (Can innitiate a Jab Combo/Used out of a F-Throw - This can be easily punished, avoid using this excessively.)

D-tilt (Attack Interruption/After Paralyzer Stun - Useful for putting the opponent in the air.)

N-air (Edge Game, Stopping Dashes – Can be used randomly in the same way a F-Smash could. The hitbox for this attack covers a fair ammount of ZSS’ body, and it’s a free 10%. This attack doesn’t enter into the stale moves list. )

Flip Jump/Kick (Recovery/Meteor Smash/Release From Deadly Combonations - can be used from the edge by holding down and away before executing, this usually only works once against an opponent. If the attack potion of this special is used too often, it can become very predictable and easily punishable. Using this against an attack like DeDeDe's Fsmash is going to get you killed.)

Plasma Wire (Recovery/Snatching Opponents/Meteor Smash – If this is done in between the first and second jumps of ZSS’s recovery, you can get a short boost.)

F-Tilt (Completely Average/Essential in some combonations! This is usually only used out of a single jab interruption or to simply keep your opponent guessing)

Shieldgrabs (RISKY - The only grabs that should be used, as the ending lag is insane. Useful on heavies at low percents / Grab Release, as all throws end in nothing. EXCEPTION - Fthrow at low %'s has the possibility to combo into a Dash Attack if the opponent doesn't react quickly enough.)

U-smash (RARE OCCASIONS - Used to limit Peach/ As a brickwall for stages with many platforms/ in a Dsmash combonation.)

F-air (RARE OCCASIONS/LIMIT USE - This attack is impractical, though it could be of use if used randomly to confuse your opponent. The second kick has all of the knockback, Bair is a much better substitute.)

D-air (RARE OCCASIONS/LIMIT USE - METEOR SMASH - If the opponent is hanging on the ledge without invincibility frames. Getting back to the stage. NOTE - Only when you're sure the opponent cannot get to you until after the ending lag. If you're above the opponent and you're both in the air after a short jump, a dair is useful, as you will both take the ending lag. This is suicide if used without a platform below you.)

F-smash (RARE OCCASIONS/LIMIT USE - Useful only after the opponent’s shield has been broken, fully charged kills at 107%)


Questions!

1. Kirby can be a very difficult opponent for me, I have more trouble with this pink puffball than MetaKnight. His F-Smash can KO at 74%, and his hammer is just as powerful. (Most of his attacks have VERY large hitboxes) Has anyone played a Kirby main enough to know what to do against him? Also, what are general strategies to avoid being grabbed?
2. I'm have a hard time deciding what to punish with after I shield an attack. A Jab Combo is usually shieldgrabbed, dtilt isn't fast enough, and a dodge+utilt only works a few times. I usually end up shieldgrabbing, and throws aren't at all great for Zero Suit Samus. So yeah, any suggestions on what to punish with?
3. Most of Snakeee's matches have at least one KO with a strange movement. When observing him, I can tell that he's turning around mid-dash, jumping, holding backwards, (ZSS' backwards jump animation) and kicking. While I have observed it, I cannot execute it. I suppose it can be very useful, as the opponent would not know if ZSS would be using a B-Air or U-Air. Could someone further explain this movement?
   1:41 Here 3:58 Here
4. I have limited my melee ground game because everytime I happen to do something like -Jab x1 + D-Tilt + U-Air-, I can never land the U-Air.
   Neutral A Combo is punishable.
   U-Tilt, while being a very good attack - is VERY punishable.
   The objective when playing ZSS is to get the opponent into the air to use your aerials, but without the melee ground game - it's nearly impossible.
   
   I suppose the question here is this; Paralyzer is great for my complications, what are some useful ways that one could follow up with a fully charged Paralyzer?
   
   
5. What is the safest option after an U-Tilt or D-Tilt (Damaging, not KO's.)?

Thank You, help is very much appreciated!
​

 

[DeliciousCake]

1. Because Kirby is so light, KO'ing him is fairly easy once you get to the mid 70's. I haven't played any real Kirby mains, but from experience I can tell you to use your mid-range game as much as possible.

3. All Snakeee is doing is merely moving around mid-jump.

4. SH is probably your easiest way to pull off paralyzer shots unless you're planning on camping.

5. Out of experience, the best follow-up from a d-tilt is either an u/f-air depending on which way your opponent DI's, and normally an u-air after an u-tilt.

 

[PoseidonsEnd]

Kirby can Wop his bair or fair and his Fsmash lasts so long its ridiculous. Also he can use that random down special to KO you at a fairly low %.

After d-tilt, people expect uair and airdodge so you can punish them afterwards.

 

[Chaco]

Do exactly what cake said on Kirby . I'm newer to ZSs too and had asked Snakee about Kirby.

 

[Bouse]

You can Dsmash mindgame Kirby's approach. It goes up high enough most of the time.

This bit of insight is courtesy of Snakeee beating the **** out of Chu Dat.

 

[ph00tbag]

Don't limit your use of fair. Learn to space and time it for aerial punishment.

 

[Bouse]

Don't trust strangers who give you candy shaped like roofie pills. I learned that one the hard way.

 

[PoseidonsEnd]

Don't trust strangers who give you candy shaped like roofie pills. I learned that one the hard way.

WTF?

10char

 

[Hence]

Honestly, I believe our Kirby match-up is at least 45:55, if not 40:60. On stages like Final Destination, Kirby's dash attack can easily close the gap on ZSS' spacing. Kirby has a better edge game than us with a D-Air spike and Up+B gimp. If you allow Kirby inside, you're doomed to be grabbed. Grabs may lead to very fast aerials, which may lead to easy KO's. Kirby's KO moves are much easier to use and actually hit with. (F-Smash 70-80%, Hammer 70-80%, Aerial Hammer 90%-100%, B-Air 140%, and U-Smash 110%) Grounded melee is punished very easily, and Kirby is much better at this range than ZSS. Kirby also has a PHENOMENAL aerial game, with everything but his N-Air being a high or top tier attack. If your advice is to stay at medium range, you must take into consideration that ZSS is not Marth. We have one attack that works from this range, and even then it's extremely difficult to hit with. In orders to win against Kirby, you must time everything to an exact. When punishing, you must approach, attack, and get the hell out before Kirby outranges you. It is true that ZSS' weight limits Kirby's grab potential, but Kirby has so many other damaging options. As I stated previously, after about 80% (Congratulations, you made it this far without being gimped.) KOing is made easy by something like D-Air+Fsmash.

Here's an example.
Claw is one of the highest ranked ZSS mains, while the Kirby user (JLB) pales in comparison to individuals like ChuDat or Gonzo.
As you could clearly see, it doesn't take an amazing Kirby user to win against an amazing ZSS main. I would like to hear from ZSS users like Snakeee who have played Chu's Kirby. (I have researched, and can't seem to find this match-up on YouTube.) If you (Snakeee or anyone who has played a very good Kirby) believe that this Match-Up is in our favor, I would like a detailed explaination as to why, and what ZSS strategies beat Kirby.

Until then, I'm counterpicking Kirby with Marth.

 

[Asdioh]

Here's an example.

Until then, I'm counterpicking Kirby with Marth.

That was an interesting match. Just do what the ZSS did first stock (without suiciding like he did) because it worked very well. keep in mind that match was in May too...also, notice how he escaped Kirby's fthrow combo by using Down B. ZSS is a hard character to combo.

No! Marth ahhhhh!!



In all seriousness, in my (little) experience against ZSS, I find this to be a really tough matchup for Kirby. One of the few good ZSS I've played is Speculosity from Allisbrawl...I don't want to talk about it T_T (wifi isn't great practice as you know)

Anyway, as Kirby, getting hit by one Dsmash or a close-range paralyzer gun results in pain. Dsmash->dsmash-> Side B is something I get hit with a lot.

I don't know how to explain it, again due to lack of experience. I feel like ZSS beats Kirby onstage, while Kirby can gimp her fairly easily offstage. Except when Kirby goes offstage, he has to watch out for her RIDICULOUS down B spike. It's like a sex kick that is still superpowerful after sticking out there for a second. X_X

Sure Kirby can KO quickly with Fsmash, but your side B outranges it and KOs at similar percents.

I wish I could put more into the matchup, but I don't really know what else to say. ZSS has really good and fast aerials (uair?) and Kirby's aerials are relatively fast, and good because they have pretty fat hitboxes. I'd say this matchup is about 50-50... ZSS outranges Kirby and combos him more easily than he combos her, but Kirby has a better gimping game. But then, Kirby has to watch out for her down B and up B when trying to gimp her, lest she spike him, or take him down with her.

50-50 imo for now, unless someone more experienced can bring more arguments in.

Hence, I think you might just need more experience with the matchup. Kirby's fsmash is usually pretty predictable, and if you shield it, you can punish it easily. Dair->Fsmash doesn't work sometimes either, just hold the shield button down if you expect him to do that. Kirby's approaches are usually pretty obvious due to his slow aerial and ground movement speed, just watch out if he tries to mindgame you by approaching with his multiple jumps (by that, I mean he might fake an attack, causing you to shield or counterattack, and then he just uses one of his jumps and does it again)

Kirby doesn't have a good projectile either. You probably know this, but his Final Cutter has tons of ending lag, and it's obvious when it's coming, so shield it and punish with a grab or dash attack. If he copies your power...then he has a gun that's equal to yours. It's pretty good in his hands though so watch out. Paralyzer Gun -> Fsmash? :D

 

[Chaco]

That was an interesting match. Just do what the ZSS did first stock (without suiciding like he did) because it worked very well. keep in mind that match was in May too...also, notice how he escaped Kirby's fthrow combo by using Down B. ZSS is a hard character to combo.

No! Marth ahhhhh!!



In all seriousness, in my (little) experience against ZSS, I find this to be a really tough matchup for Kirby. One of the few good ZSS I've played is Speculosity from Allisbrawl...I don't want to talk about it T_T (wifi isn't great practice as you know)

Anyway, as Kirby, getting hit by one Dsmash or a close-range paralyzer gun results in pain. Dsmash->dsmash-> Side B is something I get hit with a lot.

I don't know how to explain it, again due to lack of experience. I feel like ZSS beats Kirby onstage, while Kirby can gimp her fairly easily offstage. Except when Kirby goes offstage, he has to watch out for her RIDICULOUS down B spike. It's like a sex kick that is still superpowerful after sticking out there for a second. X_X

Sure Kirby can KO quickly with Fsmash, but your side B outranges it and KOs at similar percents.

I wish I could put more into the matchup, but I don't really know what else to say. ZSS has really good and fast aerials (uair?) and Kirby's aerials are relatively fast, and good because they have pretty fat hitboxes. I'd say this matchup is about 50-50... ZSS outranges Kirby and combos him more easily than he combos her, but Kirby has a better gimping game. But then, Kirby has to watch out for her down B and up B when trying to gimp her, lest she spike him, or take him down with her.

50-50 imo for now, unless someone more experienced can bring more arguments in

It's a close match up for sure. I play Bunnies Kirby almost everyday, and it's close.

 

[Hence]

It seemed so much easier to gain experience in a match-up against practically every other character.
You did bring up a valid point, and reminded me of something I had forgotten. I had practically eliminated uncharged D-Smash from my game about a week ago. Charged Dsmashes don't seem to work against Kirby, simply because all of his spacing is done with aerials. Punishing with a D-Smash on every opportunity is something I'll try.
I'll be sure to keep you updated.
-peace-

 

[Pdiamond]

notice how he escaped Kirby's fthrow combo by using Down B.

Actually Hence use to do that in our matches. But it can be punished by jumping right after f-throw and then using u-air. Also if ZSS is at low %'s and it occurs you can sometimes start to juggle ZSS with jumps and u-airs.

 

[Asdioh]

Actually Hence use to do that in our matches. But it can be punished by jumping right after f-throw and then using u-air. Also if ZSS is at low %'s and it occurs you can sometimes start to juggle ZSS with jumps and u-airs.

alright, but all I was saying is that the combo is not inescapable.

It's the same (as far as I know) against Wolf: normally, he's a fastfaller so you can do fthrow->uair->fthrow->uair without problem. But Wolf players learned to use Reflector as a combo breaker, so you would get hit before you could regrab for the second fthrow. However, Kirby can counter even this by predicting and shielding the Reflector, and then regrabbing. But if Wolf predicts that Kirby will predict the Reflector, he can just walk or dodge away while Kirby is shielding.

So basically, the combo is escapable, but it all comes down to mindgames and who predicts what correctly. Same with ZSS doing down B, if she predicts that Kirby thinks she'll escape the combo by using it, she can choose to NOT use it and Kirby will jump up for no reason.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

Yea for some reason charged dsmash mindgames work well against kirby. his roll isn't that fast and you could react to it in time. But you dont wanna SH space a lot with kirby because they are pretty good at getting under you and closing the gap. I tend to stay more on the ground against kirby and only go in the air when I have the momentum because his bair and dair ain't no joke. Luckly their moves dont have the best attack and grab range and cant punish zss as easily for things like dsmash unlike other chars like snake who have the long range ftilt. Plus zss can literally grab kirby out of his SH, but DONT get predictable with it, only if you see that they approach with it a lot.

And yes zss can escape that grab combo kirby can do at an early stock with down b. And yes if you do it all the time they can predict that and counter the down b. fsmash isnt that hard to avoid as it is usually predictable and punishable.

 

[Snakeee]

I win the majority of my matches against Chu, and it's definitely ZSS' favor. She has the advantage in almost every situation. She can camp him pretty well, and then when he does get close her close range game is so much faster than his. And her up air actually beats all of his aerials if spaced right.

Btw, there was a money match recorded of me against Chu, but he requested that none of his matches be put up at all in that tourney

 

[TheRockSays]

I CANNOT WATCH PASS THE SECOND STOCK. God my eyes were hurting you jump so much is unnecesary. i suggest u take tap jump off u can still foot stool. My first main is ZSS then kirby i suggest u stun once dtilt and fair. Beware of Snake players they are campy but they are easily pressured by zss *points at that claw match* .Last advice do not follow kirby never when he is higher the rock(Down B) is very punishable. I ve played many zss and they fall for it every time :/

 

[Hence]

I CANNOT WATCH PASS THE SECOND STOCK. God my eyes were hurting you jump so much is unnecesary. i suggest u take tap jump off u can still foot stool. My first main is ZSS then kirby i suggest u stun once dtilt and fair. Beware of Snake players they are campy but they are easily pressured by zss *points at that claw match* .Last advice do not follow kirby never when he is higher the rock(Down B) is very punishable. I ve played many zss and they fall for it every time :/

If you actually read what I said, that video was weeks ago. It happens to be one of the worst matches I had in the tournament. I knew at that point that I was neglecting the basics of Brawl. Don't worry, I don't jump nearly as often. IMO, I've improved A LOT.