Help with some Shulk Matchups

[Dilligaf]

First post here, just looking for some help.

I've been playing a lot of Shulk in For Glory (the only one it seems), and I struggle to fight both versions of Link and Captain Falcon. Falcon in particular is extremely difficult for me, and I've only beaten one that Falcon Kicked himself off the stage twice.

Is it something I'm doing wrong or is it a combination of online delay/bad matchup/etc?

How do you play against these characters as Shulk?

Thanks in advance for any advice you have.

EDIT: Found someone who played Shulk with me 3 or so times then switched to Fox. Very helpful, though I don't believe they mained Shulk but was just trying to abuse his counter. Could also have been using it due to the lag though. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Masonomace]

Online delay is probably a major factor. The matches shouldn't be taken seriously anyhow, but it may have to do with matchup advantages / disadvantages though. Shulk versing Falcon most of the time is you outranging with N-air to keep him out by zoning, because if you don't zone him out & he gets in your space, he's going to want to stay in that space & make it very difficult for you. If you utilize MArts, I'd opt to use Speed for early game to counter-act his approaches getting in your space by running away from him & wait for him to make a move. Shield for mid-way in the match including the later portion of the match when your % is high & ready to be KO'd. Shield reduces knockback making you heavier, screwing with Falcon's U-air air setups he can do, like U-air > U-air or Knee of Justice when you're around the 60 ~ 70% range.

BTW Happy 1st post, welcome to Smashboards.

 

[Dilligaf]

Thanks for the advice! It was pretty disheartening to come off a pretty good series of wins as Shulk and then get 2 stocked by 3 Captain Falcons in one day ha . Next time I come across one I'll make sure to follow your advice.

And thanks for the nice welcome. I'm glad to be here.

 

[Claxus]

Mostly what Masonomace said. When spacing, make sure you're going as far as possible. Falcon's run speed can really catch your landings. The occasional B-air and F-air can catch them off guard, but be careful and play defensive. If they get too close, F-tilt and D-tilt are your pressure breakers or punishers. Falcon's predictable off stage, so use Jump for edge guarding,

For Link, I would use Jump to just jump across the stage to him, nullifying his projectiles easily. Up close, you outrange him, so he's also a character you want to space against with N-air, just don't get careless because his tether grab can still catch you. Use Speed once in range to not let up. If they try the boomerang or arrows midrange, you may even be able to run up and forward-Vision them if you predict it quickly. Otherwise, in Speed, (power)shield > dash-grab can easily punish him for anything really.

Well, they both fall pretty easily to good spacing, so try working on that N-air game.

 

[Sui]

Captain Falcon is one of my favorite matchups for Shulk, actually. Captain Falcon doesn't have anything particularly annoying to deal with for Shulk, so it's basically a matter of keeping the pace with Falcon using Speed, and then spacing your attacks well. Using Speed at the start and poking him with Nair -> 3-hit jab/grab (depending) is good to rack up damage, and Fair while in speed is good for chasing him across the stage after he's been hit. Once he's offstage, switching to Jump and Fair-ing him works pretty well. And always remember if you see a Falcon Punch or a Smash charging up, using Vision is oftentimes a guaranteed KO (assuming you don't whiff it), so that's always fun.

Just be sure not to misread an attack and roll when you shouldn't have, since Falcon can punish you pretty easily with his side B if you do that. I've made this mistake a ton, so I'm trying to just shield through this instead of rolling, but. Seems like they really like to do this a lot, so watch out.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Just shielding won't work though because Falcon has a really good dashgrab and good players will adapt to you just standing in your shield. Agreed though that rolling is pretty risky in this matchup too. Walling him out seems better!

 

[Farkle the Oddly Shaped]

Online I don't enjoy Speed as much just because of the lag so what I do is play vanilla up until my throws/tilts can push him offstage and then get easy gimps using Jump (vs Falcon)

With the Links, I find that Toon Link is more obnoxious than normal Link. If you go in with Jump on either of them, make sure not to air dodge too close to the ground (or really at all, odds are at least one projectile will hit you) or you're very punishable. You can try landing behind them with a nair or if you're greedy, low enough, and they're sitting there charging the bow (which is very specific but it seems to happen very often when I play), go for the easy Back Slash punish

 

[TechieWidget]

I am not sure about Captain Falcon, but I know for going up against Link, gimping him off the stage is an effective way to KO him.

A lot of Link players like to play a keep-away style by using boomerangs, arrows and bombs. Use Shulk's F-air or N-air while shorthopping, but don't do it too often or they will notice your attack pattern. Mix your offensive strategy with B-air or use Vision to trick them into attacking up close when you rush on Link.

 

[SpaceJell0]

tips pls?

 

[erico9001]

I'm really bad against captain falcon too...

@Shurui Tamashi I think you should either unlock that Shulk match up thread or unsticky it :x. I keep looking at the thread and am always like "I need it...!!"

Anyways, I'm actually much better against Captain Falcon with Villager than with Shulk... which is weird because I'm better as Shulk and Villager is also a bad MU against Captain Falcon.

Based on what I've read here, my main issues against Captain Falcon are probably:
A) I shield too much against him
C) I should be using speed mode
D) I should be more defensive?

The reason I've ? marked D is I need more info on how to be defensive against C.Falcon. I think I'm trying to be defensive against Captain Falcon which is why I'm shielding, causing to my downfall. How should I react to his approach though? Should I more be trying to jump over his grabs/dash attacks and come down with a neutral air? Should I be trying to outrun his attacks and then run back in with an attack?

 

[Zephil]

tips pls?

Speed is your friend. With good spacing, you can destroy the gyro with nair while moving forward and as soon as you are at the range of your attacks its important to play well the spacing game as villager doesnt have good long range moves other than gyro, fair, and bair and if you see them coming you can counter them or just block and punish.

In short: approach with speed (jump is also a good option) until you are in your range, then keep that range and punish anything villager does. Play safe.

btw, recover smart and high! fsmash on the edge is horrible for us

 

[Masonomace]

D) I should be more defensive?

The reason I've ? marked D is I need more info on how to be defensive against C.Falcon. I think I'm trying to be defensive against Captain Falcon which is why I'm shielding, causing to my downfall. How should I react to his approach though? Should I more be trying to jump over his grabs/dash attacks and come down with a neutral air? Should I be trying to outrun his attacks and then run back in with an attack?

(Played more than several CFs hours ago in FG so I can finally give some kind of advice for a MU)
What I do against Falcon's approaches I usually use retreating B-airs. Retreating RAR + B-air can do well because it walls out his approaching dash attack or dash grab attempts. What I've been doing recently against CF along with other characters is throwing out a FH > F-air & land with N-air which usually either trades with their dash attack, or it halts their grab attempt because the lack-of grab armor in Smash 4. If you wanna be quirky about it, faced-away FH > F-air & landing with N-air is surprisingly decent for an okay defensive mix-up since N-air's start-up is behind you which is what you wall out upon your landing.

As for the MArt of choice, I think it's adjustment to a certain MU along with preference for any MArt in that MU.

 

[Phampy]

Might as well ask here.

How do I deal with Sonic? I played Brawl for only a couple of months so I never really got up to speed with how to fight this character. The thing I have issue with the most is spin dash. Not really sure what to do against it. Trying to use tilts against it just feels like a guessing game for when he launches and staying in shield just opens options for him once he starts rolling.

As for the general matchup outside of his spindash, I always felt like it was a losing battle unless I had speed activated otherwise he was always in my face and Shulk's normals aren't really fast enough to keep him out once he maneuvers past nairs and fairs.

 

[ChalupaXIII]

So it might sound crazy but the only character that really gives me a run for my money is a good (emphesis on the good)

Now most folks will just advise me to gimp his up b on recovery but if you have ever played a good Ness you'll know that he will try to avoid recovering that way as much as possible. His F air and dash attack are insanely good and the GRABS,OH THE GRABS! Any tips?

 

[erico9001]

So it might sound crazy but the only character that really gives me a run for my money is a good (emphesis on the good)

Now most folks will just advise me to gimp his up b on recovery but if you have ever played a good Ness you'll know that he will try to avoid recovering that way as much as possible. His F air and dash attack are insanely good and the GRABS,OH THE GRABS! Any tips?

Welcome to Smashboards, happy first post!!

Good Ness... I know what you mean. I utilize a more aggressive strategy against them. I spend a lot of time in the air, spacing out Nairs and Fairs. Umm... oh right, idk how much a good Ness will be using his up B (hitting himself with it) to try to KO you, but if you get the chance to counter that then he will die very early on.

-A good Ness probably won't use his Neutral special on you, but if he does counter it!! If it's fully charged you will one hit KO Ness at 0% damage!

I tend to go to buster for this MU because that's where I find greatest success. Speed might work too, idk.

I'm sure there's a lot more to be said, which is why I wish I saved the replay of the good Ness I fought just 20 minutes ago.

I got some videos from the video archive thread that might help. Their strategies are sure to be different from mine, however.

-

(Played more than several CFs hours ago in FG so I can finally give some kind of advice for a MU)
What I do against Falcon's approaches I usually use retreating B-airs. Retreating RAR + B-air can do well because it walls out his approaching dash attack or dash grab attempts. What I've been doing recently against CF along with other characters is throwing out a FH > F-air & land with N-air which usually either trades with their dash attack, or it halts their grab attempt because the lack-of grab armor in Smash 4. If you wanna be quirky about it, faced-away FH > F-air & landing with N-air is surprisingly decent for an okay defensive mix-up since N-air's start-up is behind you which is what you wall out upon your landing.

As for the MArt of choice, I think it's adjustment to a certain MU along with preference for any MArt in that MU.

Tyvm I'm doing much better against C.Falcons now! I faced three today and while the matches were not easy for me, I tried to utilize what you said in your post and it definitely worked out. -My preference is MSpeed for this MU.

 

[Winter W. Winter]

Might as well ask here.

How do I deal with Sonic? I played Brawl for only a couple of months so I never really got up to speed with how to fight this character. The thing I have issue with the most is spin dash. Not really sure what to do against it. Trying to use tilts against it just feels like a guessing game for when he launches and staying in shield just opens options for him once he starts rolling.

As for the general matchup outside of his spindash, I always felt like it was a losing battle unless I had speed activated otherwise he was always in my face and Shulk's normals aren't really fast enough to keep him out once he maneuvers past nairs and fairs.

Sonic may seem intimidating due to his speed, but he's not too tough. He's mainly a hit and run styled character. Vision Counter will be a great help against him. Rolls and shield grabbing are also easier ways to deal with his speed since he will generally dash attack through you and will take a bit before he can dash back for another attack. Playing patient and zoning him out is personally what I do and it's quite rare I'll die to Sonic.
Hope this helps give you an idea.

 

[Phampy]

Hmm I'll try out some of that advice next time I play my friend. I'll try rolling through him when he spin dashes and vision to mix it up. Shield grabbing is a bit iffy since it's not easy to grab him during spin dash and he still has the option to jump out of it and punish the whiffed grab with homing attack or an aerial. I'm just so used to stuffing spindash with Jigglypuff's aerials or Little Mac's jabs

 

[DavemanCozy]

EDIT: Found someone who played Shulk with me 3 or so times then switched to Fox. Very helpful, though I don't believe they mained Shulk but was just trying to abuse his counter. Could also have been using it due to the lag though. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Lol, sounds like me when I was trying to learn Shulk. Was the Fox red?

 

[InfinityZERO]

Sonic may seem intimidating due to his speed, but he's not too tough. He's mainly a hit and run styled character. Vision Counter will be a great help against him. Rolls and shield grabbing are also easier ways to deal with his speed since he will generally dash attack through you and will take a bit before he can dash back for another attack. Playing patient and zoning him out is personally what I do and it's quite rare I'll die to Sonic.
Hope this helps give you an idea.

Can you shield grab Sonic out of his Spin Dashing shenanigans? I know you can do that with Wario's stupid bike.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Can you shield grab Sonic out of his Spin Dashing shenanigans? I know you can do that with Wario's stupid bike.

You can, I've grabbed Sonic out of his Spin Dash before. However, it's not easy to do. Sonic's movement is much more superior than Wario's riding the hog in both speed and jumping out it. You might end up whiffing the shield grab if you mistime it.

Also, if he's starting up the spin dash, he can interrupt the Spin Dash charge and cancel it into a grab, shield or dodge. Sonic can mix up his approaches in many ways, which is why he's so mentally demanding to face.

Like Winter said above, I find that keeping him away via range is much easier than trying to shield grab him out of his many offensive options.

 

[Winter W. Winter]

DavemanCozy hit the nail on the head for the answer. Rolling toward Sonic as he comes at you may also be a preferred option in case he's coming in for a cancelled grab. The nice thing is Sonic's running grab has severe lag on the end of it and leaves him quite vulnerable. If he's not going for the grab then you're at least putting some good distance between the two of you.

 

[Fernosaur]

As for Ness, I honestly haven't played against any good Ness as Shulk, only as Zelda and the Villager, but one advice I can give that works for ANYONE in order to mitigate damage from his combo chains is to always DI towards his back if he d-throws you, which he will do, a lot :'D. If you DI to his back you'll be popped directly upwards, so you'll mess up his f-air followups, and they most likely won't really expect it. If you're at a high enough %, try DIing the other way around, that is to his front. That'll put you out of harm's reach sometimes if they're careless. I've found that you really shut down some of his options if you DI backwards, BUT do be careful to do this a lot, since it might put you in a good place for a bair and that can hurt a lot if your % is high enough. The best answer to that is to DI backwards and airdodge ASAP.


Edit:
So I was just playing with a friend and...

btw, recover smart and high! fsmash on the edge is horrible for us

OH GOD IS IT EVER. The bowling ball is the most horrible thing in the world, omg!!

 

[N7Kopper]

Sonic may seem intimidating due to his speed, but he's not too tough. He's mainly a hit and run styled character. Vision Counter will be a great help against him. Rolls and shield grabbing are also easier ways to deal with his speed since he will generally dash attack through you and will take a bit before he can dash back for another attack. Playing patient and zoning him out is personally what I do and it's quite rare I'll die to Sonic.
Hope this helps give you an idea.

Sonic is fast (duh) - so if you go for a grounded Vision counter on one of his spindash attacks, use Forward Vision, (Grounded only, it doesn't work in the air) by tilting the stick in the direction of the blow you're blocking. Otherwise, he might pop out of Shulk's counter range, even with the Monado slowing him down a whole lot.

 

[ChalupaXIII]

Welcome to Smashboards, happy first post!!

Good Ness... I know what you mean. I utilize a more aggressive strategy against them. I spend a lot of time in the air, spacing out Nairs and Fairs. Umm... oh right, idk how much a good Ness will be using his up B (hitting himself with it) to try to KO you, but if you get the chance to counter that then he will die very early on.

-A good Ness probably won't use his Neutral special on you, but if he does counter it!! If it's fully charged you will one hit KO Ness at 0% damage!

I tend to go to buster for this MU because that's where I find greatest success. Speed might work too, idk.

I'm sure there's a lot more to be said, which is why I wish I saved the replay of the good Ness I fought just 20 minutes ago.

I got some videos from the video archive thread that might help. Their strategies are sure to be different from mine, however.

-

Tyvm I'm doing much better against C.Falcons now! I faced three today and while the matches were not easy for me, I tried to utilize what you said in your post and it definitely worked out. -My preference is MSpeed for this MU.

Wow thanks to both you and Fernosaur! I'm definetly going to try these out later.

 

[Fernosaur]

About Ness!! If you do DI backwards, be sure to shield the moment you touch the ground, because a nair will surely follow. If you do that you're guaranteed a grab.

 

[Penguin4478]

I would personally use speed arts to keep up with falcon and punish anything when you dodge him. In general, abuse your moves that come out quickly and have really good range or leave you safe afterwards, mainly your aerials. Bair is a move that comes to mind, but it takes quite a bit of practice to master its timing. Also try to play like Marth and hit all your tippers to be really safe and make the full use of shulk's range.

If falcon is playing really predictably (which a lot of people do) you could just punish him every time he tries to knee you with your counter. The nice thing about shulk's counter is when people edgeguard near the stage, you move forward after the counter so you don't SD. If he's approaching very predictably (mainly you see the delay of his raptor boost and falcon kick and have time to react) then your fsmash is absolutely amazing at punishing grounded approaches. Make sure he dedicates himself to this approach first though, because you're guaranteed to get punished if you miss.

 

[Fernosaur]

Add Jigglypuff to the list of characters we can't get full jabs on. -_-

 

[Berserker.]

Add Rosalina to that also, and Kirby

 

[Fernosaur]

So, Marth is a pain in the ass to fight. It might have been the lag too but his aerials are a bit of a pain to deal with since they also have good range and are overall much faster than ours. The only good place to be against Marth is below him, but let's be honest, that's the good place to be against most of the cast...

 

[Zephil]

I think we should start serious MU discussions...

Can we start those already?

 

[erico9001]

We need to get that stickied thread opened. I sent @Shurui Tamashi, the mod/thread owner a message just now, but she hasn't made any posts on Smashboards for a month. I think I'll try contacting @Hokori

 

[Fernosaur]

We should make a poll on who to cover first, I think. And we might have to make a new thread if the OP doesn't come back.

 

[InfinityZERO]

I recently watched Trela's Shulk against Z's Diddy at an Invitational. That was pretty disturbing what that Diddy did. Diddy's SideB is crazy.

 

[erico9001]

We should make a poll on who to cover first, I think. And we might have to make a new thread if the OP doesn't come back.

Yeah, actually we probably should just make one. When Hokori comes on he could just sticky that thread. After all, we would want to update the thread occasionally and direct to specific match ups.