Help with Mario/Link MU? (and general help?)

[NQuad1Zero]

There is a generic MU Thread based on 3.0 Snake, but I cant really go through all 133 pages of reading and Im not sure if this was covered:

I need some help regarding dealing with Mario and Link in the Matchup, I have a passionate hate for Mario (he looks douchey, **** overalls and moustache, ditches and steals credit off Luigi, and almost everyone plays him) but have just recently found Link a giant ***** to deal with.

How do you approach these people? They both have projectiles which interupt your AGT and Wavedash Grenade throw and instead get you blown up, they both have projectiles which can be aimed at your crawling approach option, and planting mines at the opposite end of the stage is still super risky due to their goddam stunning projectiles.

Mario has these ridiculous utilt spammy combos which all lead to some downthrow Fair shinanageans (Also, Mario's Fair is like super fair, definition of low risk high reward *End Rant*) which is insanely difficult to get out of and UpBing doesn't seem to work/respond most of the time. Is the whole matchup just getting the hit on Mario first and not dropping edgeguards? (Which by the way, he's stupidly hard to edgeguard due to his stupid amount of aerial stalls avalible to him).

Meanwhile, for Link, when one stray projectile hits you he gets these ridiculous combos from 0-70%, do you just have to like somehow avoid his 3 projectiles being spammed at you at once and get the first hit on him whilst avoiding his disjointed hitboxes and his stupid grounded up-B?

I also don't quite understand how to combo these people. Do I like use Up-B OoS into dairs/nairs? attempt for some upthrow/upair/upsmash juggles? Do I do a whole load of f-tilt jab reset stuff and hope they don't tech?

Some advice would be appreciated, I'd be willing to read long explanations Thanks.

 

[cisyphus]

So far as link goes, bait out his lag. Boomerangs can only be in play one at a time and is kinda easy to react to; Arrows have a decent amount of lag on both start up and cool down and have a linear, inflexible trajectory. Bombs can be caught and recycled and work a bit like grenades (so you should know how to use them well). Once you close the gap, bait out his laggy "get off me" kind of moves (up-B, UTilt, USmash...). From there you can combo the hell outta Link. Be sure to get a C4 stick ASAP. Afterward, just play the neutral real passive with mines and grenades and make him approach you so you can combo him again and KO. It's a hard matchup that's definitely in Link's favor, but it's manageable with smart, patient play. Recover very carefully as well: Link is almost as good at on-stage edgeguarding as Marth, and he has a projectile to work with as well.

Mario is honestly the character I'd switch to Samus or Sheik for. He has a solid projectile to take away stage control and is tough to combo well. I personally think it's one of his worst matchups, but again—it's still manageable in theory. His range is pretty weak, so outspace him the best you can and remember that trades are gonna be in your favor since Snake lives forever and Mario is pretty floaty. Use mines to bait his fireballs and then punish that with grenades or DACUS as a way to approach. Learn how fireballs move as well, especially if jank stages like Yoshi's Island, Yoshi's Story, and Lylat Cruise are legal—their sloping causes minute differences to fireballs' movement. Beware of Cape while recovering: if you don't sweetspot, you WILL die unless you can react to it, and you'll still probably die. Mario doesn't have a true chain grab on Snake, even at low percents (use Debug and you'll see), so just neutral DI and wiggle out so that you can jump to escape it. Then punish with like FF Dair to C4 stick or something (Maybe?). Try not to get grabbed regardless, though: Mario has crazy combos out of down throw.

 

[NQuad1Zero]

Thanks for the general tips, but might I ask the followingg:

How do I "make [Link] approach"? Do I have to go through the whole cycle of closing out the projectiles and trying to bait his laggier moves again? Also, his grab ALWAYS catches me off guard, I always get grabbed when predicting to shield his projectiles from like quite a distance away (The animation of his hookshot like pauses for 2 seconds, and then suddenly grabs me kinda thing).

As of now I only play Snake, Ike, Marth, Roy and Bowser (my Roy being probably my worst pick), so I don't have a "Dead Easy" character to use against Mario. And what did you mean by "Neutral DI"? Is that just not moving at all?

 

[cisyphus]

General tip: slim down your character list. You're spreading yourself thin when you really need to be grasping the fundamentals of a given character. Also, take the full context of your quotation into consideration: "Afterward, just play the neutral real passive with mines and grenades and make him approach you so you can combo him again and KO." In general though, yeah, you should be baiting and punishing laggy moves—that's where Snake naturally excels. Both characters are projectile heavy characters that use projectiles to get in, which makes them very punish-heavy characters. The game becomes a war of attrition where you've gotta capitalize as much as possible out of your neutral victory. Yes: neutral DI is no DI inputs. if you DI the throw, you end up lower to the ground where Mario is able to regrab while you're still in hitstun. I'm not sure if Marios try for the regrab, so if they aren't, definitely disregard that. The few Marios I've played definitely have tried.

 

[NQuad1Zero]

I was talking about the characters that I have grasped a full moveset knowledge of and know some sort of trickier techs for those 5 characters I play, but as of now I basically play Snake and Ike exclusively, and Marth/Bowser may be an easier MU (just because easy edgeguards, Bowser can tank through projectiles with crawl, Idk though).

Baiting out moves is the part I'm not so certain at doing. How does one accomplish this? Do I dashdance in their threat zones and quickly wavedash out? Do I jump at them and double jump backwards? Do I jump at them with Nair and quickly run behind them (Something Ken did with Marth)?

Most marios don't risk the regrab that I verse, but instead go for their giant uptilt and upair montages, then some double Fair shinenageans. Not so sure how to escape that -.-